Sizing Jacketed Bullets

[hdwhit]

I've been reloading for decades, but it has pretty much always been an assembly operation involving putting existing components (i.e. bullet, case, primer, powder) together properly. I never got into casting bullets; just bought jacketed, plated or ones someone else had cast. And they were always the "right" size; .224, .308, .451, etc.

But, I have discovered that my 5.7mm Johnson has a barrel with a diameter that is best described as being .2235 and it really doesn't appreciate having to swage that extra five ten-thousandths off the bullet when it shoots them.

I can get .223 bullets and the rifle seems to like them just fine, but .223 offerings are usually limited to .22 Hornet profile bullets. I would like to be able a broader range of choices. Is it possible - and if possible, it is advisable - to swage a .224 jacketed bullet down to .223?

If so, can someone point me in the direction of the equipment I would need and where I might find some published information on doing it?

Thanks.

 

[edwardware]

Based on my experience with the Lee cast bullet size dies, I think they'd work well. You probably want a strong press (Rockchucker), good lube (lanolin), and buy a custom undersized die to polish to your spec.

Polishing is done with emory cloth on a mandrel, lots of oil, and frequent checking by sizing a bullet until you reach your desired size. I always buy these sizers undersized so I can polish to spec; it lowers sizing force quite a bit.

 

[mdi]

I've "customized" some .32 cal jacketed bullets (.323") to fit my oversized 303 Enfield barrel (.218"+) with Lee sizing dies. I have a (very) heavy duty C-H 205 press that I used and opened up a .324" die to .318". I managed to swage some bullets down to size but it was very difficult. I used a film of STP as a lube and I got consistent results of .318" but I don't feel the results were worth the effort (went to cast bullets).

Dropping a .224" bullet to .223" should be a piece of cake and I would give it a try. Although Lee doesn't list a sizing die smaller than .224", for $38.00 they will make a custom sizing die...

 

[243winxb]

http://www.corbins.com/drawdies.htm#brd

 

[hdwhit]

Thank you, edwardware.

All I could think of as I mulled it over in my mind was cracking of the jacket, the core de-bonding from the jacket, and eccentricities produced by variations in the uniformity of the core.

 

[hdwhit]

243winxb, I had not heard the Corbin name in years. I had completely forgotten about them and what they did. Thank you.

 

[hdwhit]

Dropping a .224" bullet to .223" should be a piece of cake...

I certainly hope so.

Plus, it's an excuse to get a Rock Chucker press to replace my 1970's vintage Reloader Special!

 

[Swampman]

I've used Lee .224 and .308" sizing dies in my Rockchucker to size and "true up" thousands of machine pulled military surplus bullets over the years.

I found Imperial Sizing Wax works well, just use more of it than you would for sizing cases and make sure you lube every bullet, no "lube one, skip one" like many do when sizing cases.

If you notice an increase in the force needed to work the press, or a "dragging" feel as a bullet goes through the die, stop immediately and inspect the die to make sure it's not getting fouled with jacket material. If you see any fouling, use Sweet's 7.62 or another good copper cutter to remove it.

If the fouling builds up in the die for long, it can cause sized bullets to be smaller than intended.

 

[mdi]

Thank you, edwardware.

All I could think of as I mulled it over in my mind was cracking of the jacket, the core de-bonding from the jacket, and eccentricities produced by variations in the uniformity of the core.

I too hsd these concerns, but the bullets I sized were about as accurate as any that were fired in the particular rifle. I did not section any to check for jacket-core separation, but the OD, measured with micrometers was consistent (no bulges, no flat spots, no run out).

 

[hdwhit]

swampman wrote:
If you see any fouling, use Sweet's 7.62 or another good copper cutter to remove it.

Thank you for the recommendation. I don't know that's something I would have thought to check.

 

[hdwhit]

Plus, it's an excuse to get a Rock Chucker press to replace my 1970's vintage Reloader Special!

Turns out Midway had the RCBS Rock Chucker press on sale for $112, so after 38+ years, I finally bit the bullet. I'll keep my Reloader Special and use it solely as a decapping press, so posting this thread has worked out great for me.

 

[farmerboy78]

I used Lee cast bullet sizing dies and my rockchucker to sizing .311 SGK to .309 for my finnish mosin 28/30... worked very well... i rubbed a light coat of oil on the bullets to allow easier sizing.

 

[DM~]

I've swaged many thousands of bullets, I've also drawn down a lot of them too...

First of all, when you are making a bullet "larger" in diameter it's called "swaging".

When you are making it "smaller" in diameter, it's called "drawing" it down, so you need a "draw die".

Depending on how much you want to draw a bullet down, it can and does break the core loose from the jacket and that DOES affect bullet performance.

Drawing down longer bullets will many times make them go a bit banana shaped, that's not good either.

Going down a "small" amount usually, gives good enough performance to be worth it...

DM

 

[hdwhit]

DM~ wrote:
When you are making it "smaller" in diameter, it's called "drawing" it down, so you need a "draw die".

Thank you for pointing that out.

Depending on how much you want to draw a bullet down

As said in the OP, looking to reduce .224 bullets to .223.

 

[Varminterror]

I've been sizing the 180grn Speer Hotcor from .358" down to .357" for a handful of years now. Below is a pic doing so on my LCT, with my rinky dink "range side" loading bench, which was my only bench for a short time while converting my reloading room to my son's bedroom and didn't have a proper bench set up elsewhere. Since you're an engineer as well, I expect you'll appreciate that detail, since the LCT isn't exceptionally sturdy, nor the MDF work top on that bench, or even the Black & Decker Workmate which makes up the bench itself. Drawing the 180grn HotCors on this set up doesn't require as much force as resizing 223rem brass, let alone 300wm brass, or necking down 44mag to 357/44 B&D. I'm back on a proper bench these days, but I still do my bullet sizing on my LCT - it's convenient keeping my draw die on the same turret head as my size, charge, and seat dies. With my B&D Mag, I'm more accurate (and can push substantially higher velocities with) the 180 Hotcor than with either the 158 XTP-FP or the 180 XTP, I could comfortably deliver these into a whitetail deer at 250yrds with a 7.5" Redhawk.

I've long since sold the rifle and all of its trappings, but I also used a Lee Single Stage press and the Lee bullet sizing dies to draw .458" rifle bullets down to .452" for use in the 450 Bushmaster. At the time, I mostly used the 325 FTX, as I had a gaggle of them on hand for 45-70 (hence my upgrade to 458socom). I did this sizing in 3 stages, 2 thou at a time. I found quickly I wasn't physically strong enough (and I'm a pretty stout guy), to draw 6thou on a few hundred bullets in one pass - at least without breaking my gear or working up an unnecessary sweat - and advice from those who had gone before, when I went searching after failing, was to size no more than 2 per pass. With the Lee set up, base deformations didn't ever happen for me, and I never did see any reduction in accuracy OR increase in jacket separation upon impact on game, or even any deformation between the jacket and rubber tip - but I was always wary of it when taking 6thou off of the bullet.

I treat the bullet the same as I would a lead bullet prior to sizing, lubing it with Lee Liquid Alox, rolled in a jar, and dried on wax paper prior to sizing.

Personally, in my experience drawing jacketed bullets, staying at 2thou per pass and not asking too much of the bullet overall - i.e. asking a 45cal bullet to become a 44cal bullet, I've had no issues in resizing using the Lee dies.

 

[hdwhit]

Varminterror wrote:
Drawing the 180grn HotCors on this set up doesn't require as much force as resizing 223rem brass,...

Thank you. That gives me a perspective to work from.

I expect you'll appreciate that detail, since the LCT isn't exceptionally sturdy, nor the MDF work top on that bench, or even the Black & Decker Workmate which makes up the bench itself....

I've always been impressed with how sturdy the B&D Workmate is for its size and weight. A little too much flexure for me to be comfortable reloading on it, but never had any concern that one would collapse under me.

I'm only looking to reduce diamter by 1/1000 inch, but having never done it before had no idea what to expect, so I figured I better ask about the experiences of those who had done it before.

Thank you.

 

[EnglishTom]

Hello All.
If it helps I have in the past resized 174g PPU 303brit bullets down to 308 to use in my 308win using a Lee push through die a Rockcrusher and lots of drawing wax. No drama's shot well with full load

 

[EnglishTom]

ps, Boat tail work best, room for the jacket to move

 

[hdwhit]

English Tom wrote:
If it helps

It does, thank you.

ps, Boat tail work best, room for the jacket to move

Unfortunately, the 35 grain bullets I'm wanting to size down by a thousandth are flat base.

 

[hdwhit]

In my reply to English Tom (thanks for the inspiration), I realized there was something else I needed to ask. In addition to the 35 grain conventional lead-core, gilding metal jacket bullets that I will be drawing down, I also have some lead-free bullets that I think are just some form of copper alloy. Can I run them through the die just like the conventional bullets?

And, by the way, English Tom, those lead-free 35 grain bullets ARE boat tail.

Thanks, again.

 

[Jim Watson]

I think it would take a lot of effort to manually size down a solid copper bullet.

I am surprised that a 5.7mm Johnson shows a difference in .0005".

 

[hdwhit]

Jim Watson wrote:
I am surprised that a 5.7mm Johnson shows a difference in .0005".

A 40 grain .223 Sierra bullet can be loaded to 2800 fps and the brass shows no sign of pressure. The same load under a 40 grain .224 Sierra yields around 2700 fps and the primer is pushed into the firing pin and the primer pocket is loose.

 

[EnglishTom]

Ive never tried solids. But I think you will struggle, the lead cores go ok as the lead will flow easily, but to draw a solid will take much higher pressures and I cant see them not distorting under that sort of load, id say they will tend to flatten not elongate

 

[Varminterror]

I had some .358" Barnes XBP's laying around, so I threw some on the press to get an empirical result for your question. The XPB's are too long for use in my 357/44's, so I've never used them - but they obviously work fine for a quick drawing test. Ran them through the same set up as I pictured above. I'd be lying if I told you I could feel the difference between sizing a solid and one of my jacketed lead core HotCor's.

 

[Swampman]

If the non-toxic bullets you're trying to size are a copper alloy*, you won't have any problems sizing them down (I have no idea whether they'll function as intended if they're an expanding design).

A few years ago I purchased a few thousand gilding metal clad, steel jacketed, steel cored 147 grain LPS .311" bullets. They were sold as Russian, but I think they're actually Czech. They are definitely not AP, the cores are made of fairly soft steel or iron, as are the jackets.

They're really long for 147 grain bullets, so long that they used up too much powder space for use in 7.62x39. They weren't very accurate from my .303's, so I didn't have much use for that many of 'em.

I decided to size some down for use in my .308 bore rifles. As a test, I lubed 20 of 'em with mink grease and ran them through my .308" Lee bullet sizing die. There was some resistance, but nothing really excessive. When I measured them, they all miked at .309". I ran them through again and they were still .309". I thought they might have stretched out the die, so I ran a 180 grain .312" Winchester Power Point through it. One pass and it miked a perfect .308".

I still have those 20, .309" light ball bullets, maybe I'll turn them into key fobs someday, but no way am I going to try shooting them through a .308" bore.

* If The 35 grain boattails are sintered copper/tin like the old Sinterfires, all you'll make is a dusty, crumbly mess (ask me how I know ). I think the Barnes Varmint Grenades are made of the same stuff, just enclosed in a thin gilding metal jacket. I haven't tried sizing any of them, but my guess is that they'd end up as powder inside the jacket.

I've tried to upload pics of the .311/.309 bullets several times while writing this, but no can do. Never had a problem uploading photos before.