So how do you explain this?

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NickCross

NickCross

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I have browsed around thehighroad for a few years now, but never decided to sign up until recently.

There's a lot of knowledgeable people here. So I could really use your guys help.

I currently own 2, Glock 22 gen 4's. The first one was bought in late 2012, the second, was bought I believe in mid 2016. Dunno. Both perform really well in regards to no malfunctions. However the last G22 I bought, the one from 2016, I've noticed it hits 1 inch to the left when compared to the G22 from 2012. The one from 2012 hits POA.

Both guns are pretty much stock when it comes to parts. No backstraps or anything. Both have different sights. Both have a gen 3 trigger in them.

Yesterday I took both G22's out to the range along with my G17 gen 4.

I decided to shoot the G22 from 2016 first. The sights on this particular gun are Warren Tactical 2 dot sights. I place my target out at 7 yds. Fire 10 rounds of 165 grain 40 s&w, fmj, Estate ammo. All the rounds were hitting in a tight group, but everything hit an inch left of my POA. I knew my sights were dead center because I used a digital caliper to center the rear sight.

So at this point I am thinking,
"okay, maybe it's me. Perhaps I picked up a bad habbit."

So I put the 2016 G22 back in the range bag and picked up my 2012 G22. Put up a new target and placed it at the same distance. 7 yards. Load in the same ammo. I want to see if I can replicate this same result of hitting left.

My POI hit exactly where my POA was. Everything was dead on. So now, I am really baffled about this 2016 G22. I decided to shoot my G17 gen 4. It as well, hit exactly where my POA was.

So now I am thinking maybe something is wrong with the Warren Sights on the 2016 G22 for the gun to shoot an inch left.

So I take the Warren Sights off the 2016 G22 and put on another pair of aftermarket sights. Blacked out front and rear sights. Centered everything up using digital calipers.

Shot the gun again. Nope! Still hitting an inch left at 7 yards. Okay...Maybe it's the barrel? Removed the stock barrel and dropped in a Barsto barrel. Nope! Still hitting an inch left. Okay, lets replace the slide lock and the locking block. Nope! Still hitting an inch left at 7 yards.

So what exactly is going on with this particular G22 from 2016?
My other G22 from 2012 (that was shot in the same range session)shoots poa and same goes for my G17. All these guns are gen 4.
 
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If this was a case of shooter error (which I am still hoping is)I figured the same results would transfer over to the other G22 and my G17.

How can I narrow down the problem?
I've already emailed Glock and I am waiting on a reply.

Today I am going out to range again with my firearms instructor to see if he has the same result with G22 from 2016. The only handguns he shoots are Glock. I mentioned this issue to him and he thought it was me at first, until I told him I shot my other G22 from 2012 and the G17 in the same range session. Both of those guns hit POA. At that point he became baffled.
 
NickCross said:
I decided to shoot the G22 from 2016 first. The sights on this particular gun are Warren Tactical 2 dot sights. I place my target out at 7 yds. Fire 10 rounds of 165 grain 40 s&w, fmj, Estate ammo. All the rounds were hitting in a tight group, but everything hit an inch left of my POA. I knew my sights were dead center because I used a digital caliper to center the rear sight.
Click to expand...

So drift the rear sight to the right a half millimeter and try again...

Or am I missing something?
 
Salmoneye said:
So drift the rear sight to the right a half millimeter and try again...

Or am I missing something?
Click to expand...

I could do that and probably will, but I am more interested in this particular issue as a mechanical interest/curiosity.
 
Exactly how big are your groups at 7 yards? What is a "tight group" to you?

Assuming that your groups are actually small enough and repeatable enough to make a 1" difference meaningful, the manufacturing tolerances in the guns mean that the one that shoots 1 inch left at 7 yards needs the rear sight moved about 20 thousandths (.020") to the right.
 
45_auto said:
Exactly how big are your groups at 7 yards? What is a "tight group" to you?

Assuming that your groups are actually small enough and repeatable enough to make a 1" difference meaningful, the manufacturing tolerances in the guns mean that the one that shoots 1 inch left at 7 yards needs the rear sight moved about 20 thousandths (.020") to the right.
Click to expand...

At 7 yards I group roughly 1.5".

I do wonder overtime if I put thousands of rounds through the gun, (maybe 40k), if the metal on metal wear will eventually cause me to drift the rear sight back to the left
.020"

I am guessing at this point, that somewhere in the slide of this particular G22 has more metal somewhere on the right sight side of the slide. I thought glock had pretty on point cnc machining when it came to there slides being cut.
 
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That's not bad. Should be about a 5" group at 25 yards. Much better than most people I see shoot, should be worth your while to drift the rear sight to compensate for the difference.

There's lots of machining operations that go into making a gun, and every one of them has what the company has determined to be an acceptable tolerance given the price point of the gun. No easy way to tell without doing a bunch of very precise inspections, but it sounds like your 2016 Glock is probably a little tiny bit to one side on one or more of these machining operations.

For example, optimally the barrel hole will be in the exact center of the slide. In the real world, it probably has a tolerance of plus or minus 5 thousandths (.005", human hair is typically about .003") or so and will still be considered acceptable. Same with the machining of the locking recess, front sight hole, rear sight groove, slide rail grooves, etc, etc.

Some combination of these operations has resulted in the barrel of your 2016 Glock pointing slightly to the left in relation to the sight axis. Easiest thing to do is drift the rear sight about .020" to the right so the sight axis and barrel axis align, and don't worry about it any further.
 
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45_auto said:
That's not bad. Should be about a 5" group at 25 yards. Much better than most people I see shoot, should be worth your while to drift the rear sight to compensate for the difference.

There's lots of machining operations that go into making a gun, and every one of them has what the company has determined to be an acceptable tolerance given the price point of the gun. No easy way to tell without doing a bunch of very precise inspections, but it sounds like your 2016 Glock is probably a little tiny bit to one side on one or more of these machining operations.

For example, optimally the barrel hole will be in the exact center of the slide. In the real world, it probably has a tolerance of plus or minus 5 thousandths (.005", human hair is typically about .003") or so and will still be considered acceptable. Same with the machining of the locking recess, front sight hole, rear sight groove, slide rail grooves, etc, etc.

Some combination of these operations has resulted in the barrel of your 2016 Glock pointing slightly to the left in relation to the sight axis. Easiest thing to do is drift the rear sight about .020" to the right so the sight axis and barrel axis align, and don't worry about it any further.
Click to expand...

Before I drift the rear sight over, I think I will try shooting with my left hand and my right hand being the support hand. I want to fix shooter error (if there is one) before I blame the gun. If you get what I mean.
 
I pretty much have the same problem with a Glock 22. At first I thought it was me until I got other people to shoot it. My issue is more pronounced with hits about 1.5 FEET low and to the left at about 10 yds. The other Glocks I owned shoot pretty much to POA. I just retired it and won't sell it to somebody as it is. My intention is to take it to Glock to have them take a look at it. I keep procrastinating and not take it to Atlanta. I had a Glock armorer check it out also and all seems fine from his point of view.... just doesn't come close to hitting where you aim it. If I have to guess... Glock will give me a new gun.

By the way, my G22 was bought new. There is no high round count and I haven't shot it in probably 5 years. It's just parked.
 
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I thought that this is why they made the front movable. I don't see why it's such a major concern but if it's all that important then the only thing that I can think of off-hand is cant. Maybe the front sight blade is slightly canted or maybe the grip is such that the pistol cants a little compared to the other pistols. Go gangsta' a little and cant the gun to the right a little when you shoot, align the sights on target and see if you hit at point of aim, if you do then cant is the problem. How you'd fix it beyond drifting the front sight a little I have no idea.
 
NickCross said:
At 7 yards I group roughly 1.5".

I do wonder overtime if I put thousands of rounds through the gun, (maybe 40k), if the metal on metal wear will eventually cause me to drift the rear sight back to the left
.020".
Click to expand...
Okay. Are you willing to accept a gun that doesn't shoot to point of aim for 40K rounds because it might, SOMEDAY, shift its point of aim?
 
I don't know if it is because of my astigmatism or something else. I am right handed but left eye dominant, so I shoot everything left handed for the sake of simplicity. I am used to shooting slightly right with iron sights on pretty much everything, including my Glock 20. The sight on my Glock is drifted left so that the left edge of the sight aligns flush with the left side of the slide.

Is the trigger on the offending Glock heavier or grittier? Try giving it a 25 cent trigger job and see if that helps. The trigger components can take a couple thousand rounds to wear in and can be gritty in the meantime. Going over the components with some polishing compound can alleviate this and give your a smoother pull.
 
You only mentioned one brand of ammo. Have you tried different brands in the gun? If it were mine I would try several brands and pick the one that groups the best. Then adjust the sights to hit point of aim. Just because that brand of ammo shoots good in your older gun is no guarantee it will shoot the same in your new gun. Tweeking the sights is not a big deal.
 
A fixed sight that is perfectly centered in its dovetail will not necessarily be perfectly adjusted to POA/POI. Whenever I installed night sights on my pistols, I always take the gun to the range to bench rest it, along with my sight pusher. I don't use a caliper; I just eyeball the rear sight by looking down at the sight from above. Usually the gun will shoot to point of aim, but occasionally I've had to move the sight a bit. There are variations in tolerances between the slide & barrel & other variations that can add up to make the gun shoot to different POA/POI.
I'll test at 7 yards first. At that distance, the sights should be right at POA/POI because if they're off at that range, they'll be several inches off at 15-20 yards. Sometimes factory sights will not be perfect, either. My older Glock 22 Gen 3 is one of the few pistols that was right on out of the box. My Glocks 17 & 21 were shooting high & left out of the box. Since I was planning to install night sights it didn't matter; after installing the sights, I adjusted them at the range.
 
o_O

Drift the sight and be done with it... What logic is there in leaving a pistol which is obviously not sighted in?
 
22-rimfire said:
I pretty much have the same problem with a Glock 22. At first I thought it was me until I got other people to shoot it. My issue is more pronounced with hits about 1.5 FEET low and to the left at about 10 yds. The other Glocks I owned shoot pretty much to POA. I just retired it and won't sell it to somebody as it is. My intention is to take it to Glock to have them take a look at it. I keep procrastinating and not take it to Atlanta. I had a Glock armorer check it out also and all seems fine from his point of view.... just doesn't come close to hitting where you aim it. If I have to guess... Glock will give me a new gun.

By the way, my G22 was bought new. There is no high round count and I haven't shot it in probably 5 years. It's just parked.
Click to expand...

I am at a loss for this entire thread...

Standard dovetail Glock rear sights are 'adjustable' for windage by simply drifting left or right...

'Elevation' issues are cured by changing the rear sight for a higher or lower one...

Any 'Glock Armorer' should know this...

From MidWay:

"All factory Glock rear sights are interchangeable and elevation changes are made by switching out the rear sight (all factory Glock front sights are the same height). A shorter rear sight will lower the point of impact, whereas a taller rear sight will raise the point of impact. A one-step change (up or down) in rear sight height on a Glock 17 will result in approximately 2.4 inches of impact difference at 27 yards."

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/4...t-61mm-240-height-polymer-black-white-outline

And from Glock:

http://eu.glock.com/english/options_rearsight.htm

ADDING:

I agree that 1.5' low is a lot, and you may indeed have a mechanical issue...However, I would try the tallest sight I could find, and also try a heavier bullet...Heavier bullets tend to pattern higher as they 'dwell' in the barrel longer on the rise of the muzzle...
 
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Salmoneye said:
I am at a loss for this entire thread...

Standard dovetail Glock rear sights are 'adjustable' for windage by simply drifting left or right...

'Elevation' issues are cured by changing the rear sight for a higher or lower one...

Any 'Glock Armorer' should know this...

From MidWay:

"All factory Glock rear sights are interchangeable and elevation changes are made by switching out the rear sight (all factory Glock front sights are the same height). A shorter rear sight will lower the point of impact, whereas a taller rear sight will raise the point of impact. A one-step change (up or down) in rear sight height on a Glock 17 will result in approximately 2.4 inches of impact difference at 27 yards."

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/4...t-61mm-240-height-polymer-black-white-outline

And from Glock:

http://eu.glock.com/english/options_rearsight.htm

ADDING:

I agree that 1.5' low is a lot, and you may indeed have a mechanical issue...However, I would try the tallest sight I could find, and also try a heavier bullet...Heavier bullets tend to pattern higher as they 'dwell' in the barrel longer on the rise of the muzzle...
Click to expand...
Evidently some people think a hand gun should dead on POA right out of the box. HA!
 
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