so I fired a 223 inside a small room today

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This thread should be linked the next time someone asks about using a Mosin Nagant/Mauser/insert affordable milsurp here/ for home defense :)

I've never shot anything indoors, but I notice the noise much more when shooting a handgun vs. a rifle because of the short barrel. I imagine shooting anything inside without ear protection is going to cause permanent hearing damage.

Other than my .22's, my biggest gun (45-70) is the easiest on the ears, because black powder is more of a boom than a crack. Maybe I should use my Sharps for home defense :D
 
I have also found that a lot of the pain of gunshot sounds is proportional to the velocity of the ejecta or chamber pressure, or somesuch thing. Shotguns don't hurt nearly as badly as pistol/rifle rounds, at least to me.

Just throwing that out...
 
That is nothing. A 12 gauge indoors is even louder.

Here is a good comparison chart.

Barrel lengths are as important as the caliber (and the relationship is not linear previous to the burning of all powder.)

http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml

Table 1. SHOTGUN NOISE DATA (DECIBEL AVERAGES)
.410 Bore 28" barrel 150dB
26" barrel 150.25dB
18 _" barrel 156.30dB
20 Gauge 28" barrel 152.50dB
22" barrel 154.75dB
12 Gauge 28" barrel 151.50dB
26" barrel 156.10dB
18 _" barrel 161.50dB




Table 2. CENTERFIRE RIFLE DATA
.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 _" barrel 155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel 155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel 156.0dB
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel 157.5dB
.308 in 24" barrel 156.2dB
.30-06 in 24" barrel 158.5dB
.30-06 in 18 _" barrel 163.2dB
.375 — 18" barrel with muzzle brake 170 dB


Table 3. CENTERFIRE PISTOL DATA
.25 ACP 155.0 dB
.32 LONG 152.4 dB
.32 ACP 153.5 dB
.380 157.7 dB
9mm 159.8 dB
.38 S&W 153.5 dB
.38 Spl 156.3 dB
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB
.41 Magnum 163.2 dB
.44 Spl 155.9 dB
.45 ACP 157.0 dB
.45 COLT 154.7 dB


I highlighted some common calibers that are used for self defense that are significantly louder.
In fact you will notice even a 9mm pistol from a standard length pistol barrel is even louder than a .223 from an 18" rifle barrel.
If you think a .223 is loud, an 18" 12 gauge is even worse, as are many pistol calibers such as the common .45ACP and 9x19mm. A .357 Magnum round from a common length pistol barrel tops the charts of your common defensive calibers.

Even the old Garand with a 24" barrel measures in at 158.5dB, significantly louder than the 18" .223

The decibel chart is logarithmic and so just a slight increase in the numerical number is a significant increase in sound.
10 decibels higher is 10x more powerful for example, roughly twice as loud, and has well over 3x the pressure wave on average.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TableOfSoundPressureLevels.htm

Table of sound levels L and corresponding
sound pressure and sound intensity
Examples Sound Pressure Level Lp dBSPL Sound Pressure p N/m2 = Pa Sound Intensity I W/m2

Jet aircraft, 50 m away 140 200 100
Threshold of pain 130 63.2 10
Threshold of discomfort 120 20 1
Chainsaw, 1 m distance 110 6.3 0.1
Disco, 1 m from speaker 100 2 0.01
Diesel truck, 10 m away 90 0.63 0.001
Kerbside of busy road, 5 m 80 0.2 0.0001
Vacuum cleaner, distance 1 m 70 0.063 0.00001
Conversational speech, 1 m 60 0.02 0.000001
Average home 50 0.0063 0.0000001
Quiet library 40 0.002 0.00000001
Quiet bedroom at night 30 0.00063 0.000000001

Background in TV studio 20 0.0002 0.0000000001
Rustling leaf 10 0.000063 0.00000000001
Threshold of hearing 0 0.00002 0.000000000001
 
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heheh. reminds of the day i first shot my first handgun.... a s&w 4" model 13......... shot it outside but was about 20 yards from a huge straight up dirt bank..... the first pull of the trigger and it felt like someone had slappped me in the ears!! i was useing federal 158 gr jsp ammo........ i was not experienced with firearms at all and it really got my attention!........ i shot the rest of the cylinder full then didn't shoot again until i got some good ear plugs.... acctually the loudest thing i've ever heard shot was a black powder cannon a friend had built.....it was a full size repro of the naval cannon that shot 1 lb lead balls....... he shot it out the door of his garage but it did make my ears ring for days..........

LIFE IS SHORT....
 
heheh. reminds of the day i first shot my first handgun.... a s&w 4" model 13......... shot it outside but was about 20 yards from a huge straight up dirt bank..... the first pull of the trigger and it felt like someone had slappped me in the ears!! i was useing federal 158 gr jsp ammo........ i was not experienced with firearms at all and it really got my attention!........ i shot the rest of the cylinder full then didn't shoot again until i got some good ear plugs.... acctually the loudest thing i've ever heard shot was a black powder cannon a friend had built.....it was a full size repro of the naval cannon that shot 1 lb lead balls....... he shot it out the door of his garage but it did make my ears ring for days..........

LIFE IS SHORT....
 
Interestingly you will notice from the chart I cited above, an 18" barreled 12 gauge shotgun is an entire 10 decibels louder at 161.50 db than a 28" barreled 12 gauge shotgun firing the same ammunition.

Since decibels work on a (base 10) logarithm it is much louder.


The power is multiplied by ten for each ten decibels on the scale. So by the time you go up by 40 decibels, the power has been multiplied by ten four times (10 x 10 x 10 x 10). So it is 10,000 times more powerful.

So an entire 10 decibel increase from 151.5db to 161.5 db is 10x more powerful, and about twice as loud.
 
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Okay, as soon as I'm done here, I'm headed to the basement to grab a set of my Peltor Tac-7s. I bought them several years ago after shooting .35 Rem T/C Contender pistol with a 15-inch ported barrel ONE TIME in the field, and my ears were ringing for three days. I now wear the Peltors any time I am hunting with a handgun. I've thought for a long time that I should bring them upstairs and put them in the drawer under the bed in case I need to resort to a firearm for defense. This discussion has convinced me to do it ... tonight ... even though I don't rely on a .223
 
I have also found that a lot of the pain of gunshot sounds is proportional to the velocity of the ejecta or chamber pressure, or somesuch thing. Shotguns don't hurt nearly as badly as pistol/rifle rounds, at least to me.

I wonder if that's due to the fact that a rifle bullet is going supersonic? Maybe the "crack" of the sonic boom is adding to the noise?
 
I was inside the cab of a pickup once with two friends, I was in the middle. The guy on the pass. side crawled halfway out the pass. side window and fired his .44 Super Blackhawk at something on the drivers side. Touched it off right above the cab, we all thought we'd died. That was 35+ years ago, and my ears are still ringing.
 
I once touched off a 375JDJ T/C Contender in a 4ftx6t enclosed deer blind. It had a 14 inch barrel with a muzzle brake on it and I didnt quite get it out a window while shooting a coyote. I remember that very well even though it was 20 years ago. The muzzle blast shattered a couple of plexigas windows and I thought my ears were bleeding it hurt so bad.

Today I do alot of shooting from the inside of my shop up to and including the 50 BMG, I do wear plugs and head phones though.
 
I want to remember that the sound "impulse" needs to be measured along with the muzzle dB. Which is where the high supersonic rounds can cause more damage to hearing. But, that is only recollection on my part.
 
When I was a Boy Scout a couple of years ago ;) , I was taught to shoot with my mouth open so that the pressure would be equal on both sides of the ear drum.

Anyone know of any scientific data on whether that is actually useful or not?

DD
 
The likelyhood of any of us being forced to fire in a defensive situation is incredibly remote. Should that occur, life is more important than hearing. IMO, defensive choices should be made based on the effectiveness of the weapon. Preserving hearing in that situation is going to be a minor concern.
 
When I was a Boy Scout a couple of years ago , I was taught to shoot with my mouth open so that the pressure would be equal on both sides of the ear drum.

Anyone know of any scientific data on whether that is actually useful or not?

It protects against some things, but not the hearing loss associated with using firearms.

The damage from small arms is primarily the decibels damaging the hair follicles you hear with.
From very large calibers and things such as recoiless rifles, rpgs and other rocket launchers, artillery, and explosives, the main gun on tanks, big guns on naval vessels, etc it can keep you from getting a ruptured eardrum and destroying your hearing and equilibrium (which could easily be fatal in war as you would lose your balance) , but will not save the tiny hearing follicles.

Since most small arms do not create enough of a pressure wave to rupture or damage the eardrum from the distance away from the ear they are typically fired, and only the hair follicles, it won't really help at all in most situations.
Perhaps it may if shooting in extremely confined spaces like a small car where the pressure of the entire passenger compartment is affected by the volume of gas in the discharge of a firearm.

The person that gave that information likely served in the military sometime in thier life and received that information as protection from things actually generating a shockwave or very strong pressure waves. They then imagined it extended to loud noises in general, but it generally does not.
 
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Took a Fighting from Vehicle class a few weeks back. No windshield, windows down and hearing protection (duh). Pretty loud. The best part of the class was when we put old windshields in the car and shot through the class at targets outside the car to study deflection. There aren't many things more fun than sitting in the passenger seat when the driver pulls a 1911 (.45) and sends a half dozen rounds through the windshield. Wow! Too much fun. But even with plugs and muffs, it was loud. I was shooting a 9 that day and that was pretty intense as well. But when your off to side of the muzzle, that's pretty intense. Try it. You'll like it. Just, uh, don't use the wifes car.

But I'd rather be alive with a slight ringing in my ears than to be dead. Just my opinion. I wouldn't worry about it much being that the likely hood of any of us being a situation where we're discharging firearms inside is really pretty small. Plus, think of al lthe soft surfaces in your home, walls, doorways, etc. That helps dampen and/or deflect the sound. I think you'll have more important things to deal with in that situation than slight hearing loss.

Now, I'm not saying there isn't a chance you could end up deaf in one ear or something so I wouldn't go around shooting rifles inside small concrete bunkers with no hearing protection. 160dB can leave you with permanant hearing loss.
 
When I shoot even at the outdoor range, I usually wear foam earplugs and then put my muffs on top. It's practically impossible to hear anything else with that getup though.

Of course if we had blasters like Han Solo, we wouldn't need any sort of hearing protection (he shot first, by the way).
 
1 Question and 1 Comment:

Question:

Do folks in the military wear any hearing protection while in compbat? Seems we'd be sending home a bunch of deaf vets if they don't, but I can't recall seeing any in the pictures from the front.

Comment:

Regarding home defense weapons and protecting your hearing. It seems that a suppresor is a very smart accessory for a home defense firearm. That being said, I have often heard the argument that having such a device on your weapon could provide a vigorous DA with fodder for making you look like a gun-crazed lunatic. Seems that the chart above and a picture of my sweet innocent children's ears would provide sufficient defense to such prosecution. Does anyone have thoughts about having a suppresor on their HD firearm(s)??

(Guess that turned into a question)
 
I suggest every one who can handle the cost buys a suppressor. The only problems are that the backlog at the BATFE to approve the tax stamp, which is now about 4 months, will skyrocket, and the reluctance of some Chief LEOs to signing the paperwork.

The total cost of a suppressor, tax stamp, and barrel threading is about the cost of a good handgun but the fun, and safety, is a total revelation. With proper ammo you can hold a normal conversation at the range while shooting, new shooters seem to flinch less, the neighbors don't get bothered - the advantages are enormous.

Suppressors can be fitted to any pistol and they can be fitted to any US made rifle. Foreign rifles, such as AKs, may need to be checked for 922r compliance.

You only pay the tax stamp once, on the suppressor, it can then be used on multiple firearms.

-----------------------------
I use a suppressor on HD firearms. I want to WIN. In the very unlikely event I have to defend my home using my suppressed firearm at least I will still be a) alive b) able to hear the arguments in court. In any case, I practice more frequently with the suppressor because it takes some of the hassle out of setting up at an informal range. I can set up in the woods on my property and nobody knows I am there.
 
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Wouldn't the accoustics of the room make a difference? I mean, shooting in an enclosed room with bare concrete walls seems like it would much louder or more painful than shooting in an enclosed room with an acoustic ceiling, thick carpeting on the floor, books on the wall, etc...

It know it makes a difference on virtually every other type of sound.
 
Do folks in the military wear any hearing protection while in compbat? Seems we'd be sending home a bunch of deaf vets if they don't, but I can't recall seeing any in the pictures from the front.

Yes they issue them plugs. Many of the helmets have also partially covered the ear, and while not hearing protection, sound travels in waves so anything in between, or even partially between the ear and the wave reduces the power of the wave.

That said most infantry that see combat do have hearing loss. In a culture with a lot of energy and loud communication it is probably less noticed or important at the time.
They won't be hearing the foot steps of small animals like they did as a boy though. Or even the criminals sneaking around (absent alarm, dog, etc,) whispering to each other.


Comment:

Regarding home defense weapons and protecting your hearing. It seems that a suppresor is a very smart accessory for a home defense firearm. That being said, I have often heard the argument that having such a device on your weapon could provide a vigorous DA with fodder for making you look like a gun-crazed lunatic. Seems that the chart above and a picture of my sweet innocent children's ears would provide sufficient defense to such prosecution. Does anyone have thoughts about having a suppresor on their HD firearm(s)??

A suppressor on a firearm makes as much sense as a muffler on a car, both devices made by the same man, around the same time, for the same purpose.
Which is to say common sense says they should be standard, with most firearms coming from the factory with one tuned for the gun.

Because it is an NFA item, and because someone does need to go through extra steps the majority of the population does not to legally own one, it does scream "gun nut" in a court room. In nations where disposable ones are sold for $20 in bins near the checkout counters of sporting stores, like magazines or a pack of gum, not having one seems inconsiderate.

Not all self defense shootings, or even just weapon displays (aggravated assault/assault with a deadly weapon) are judged to be justified. Even if you do everything right, what people believe and thier perspective months or years later in a court of law can be quite different.
If you used a regular firearm and they sorta agree with your actions, but still choose to "compromise" (while possibly sitting for weeks or months near the crying grieving family of the "victim"...)
They may only be finding you guilty of one of the lesser charges such as brandishing, aggravated assault, or some other weapon charge, or even manslaughter instead of murder,(which unfortunately happens too often,) It would be horrible, likely making you a felon even when you did nothing wrong, but actual jail time could be minimal or could result in the judge only sentencing probation or the minimum jail time in light of the circumstances.
Add in an NFA enhancement to even a minor charge though, even a charge that resulted in only probation, and it is an extra 10 years.
If no charges stick it makes no difference, but if even a single minor charge does, then the fact it is a crime committed with an NFA item creates an additional 10 year enhancement charge.

So adding an NFA item to a self defense weapon, even if you are law abiding and plan to be in the future has potential legal consequences.
 
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