So the Boston Globe's Editorial Staff has this to say about carrying guns...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sam1911 said:
Ok...but look, maybe I'm misunderstanding you but are you really saying that national concealed carry legislation is going to become a party plank of the Progressives?

If they believe it'll work for them, absolutely. If it'll gain them an opening toward federal control of any faction of the RKBA, without a doubt. Progressives, AKA the liberals, always float stuff like this to "test the waters", or to possibly cajole a voting block willing to sell their votes to them - to sell themselves into political servitude. If you keep a lookout, you will see it in everything they do and say.

Woody
 
Here's the deal.

All the states have gotten together and standardized their driving requirements.

They already know that possessing a license from "Sate A" satisfies the requirements in their state.

With handgun licensing that standardization does not exist, and possessing a CHL from "State A" very well may not meet the requirements of another state.

We need to push for standardization.

HOWEVER...

There are states that do not want their citizens carrying guns and their requirements are nearly impossible.

Before we start pushing for standardization, we need to ask ourselves how we feel about adopting some of the laws from places like California.

So maybe standardizing carry laws isn't such a good idea after all.
I was an emancipated minor at the age of 15. I was able to get a MS commercial license at the age of 15 to handle farm equipment. I took my driving proficiency test in a 1960 something heavy duty dual axle Ford truck that was designed to haul soybeans. In La that commercial license was just as good as gold. I used it at 16 to work for Hull and Smith part time when they had mass movements of racehorses from track to track. At 18 I moved to CA. I needed a CA drivers license. I threw that MS commercial license on the counter. I passed the CA written portion of their commercial license test and I had a CA commercial license.

We have similar laws here in NC to handle farm equipment still today. In fact, at 13 a kid can drive a truck with a farm tag while in the act of farming. We all know that laws for farm equipment are not standardized all across the US. Yet, young kids haul loads of peanuts into VA without a hitch. They go right though the scales and wave at VA DOT during harvest season.
 
Last edited:
ConstitutionCowboy said:
If they believe it'll work for them, absolutely. If it'll gain them an opening toward federal control of any faction of the RKBA, without a doubt. Progressives, AKA the liberals, always float stuff like this to "test the waters", or to possibly cajole a voting block willing to sell their votes to them - to sell themselves into political servitude. If you keep a lookout, you will see it in everything they do and say.

Woody

Jeff Jacoby is far from a stalking horse or mole for so called progressives. The man has leaned consistently to the right for his entire career.The Globe hired him away from the conservative Boston Herald (yes, Boston had a right leaning newspaper. You know, you lived there) to balance their leftist agenda a bit.

Read some of his past articles from Townhall.. That may convince you, CC. But I wouldn't bet my house on it! :D
 
disagree strongly that "most of us" believe that National reciprocity is a bad idea!

Well everyone I've ever seen comment on the subject on a gun board agrees with me. There's a big problem with turning over control of reciprocity to the feds. They're the feds. Once we surrender the pathway that has given us so many great advances in concealed carry (state control) we will be subject to the whims of the feds who like to start out slow and gradually take all your rights. Start with limiting the type of ammo you can use, who can get a CCW and who can't, what type of gun you can carry, ammo capacity, etc. etc. etc.. Given the chance the feds would fight us tooth and nail on every point. And they would win because nationally they have the media to carry their water. If not for the success of the courageous Florida CCW laws none of us would be carrying concealed today. It sure wan't the feds who did that. It was individual states. It's MUCH easier to get lawmakers to listen who aren't being bought and paid for by the Bloomberg crowd et. al. They can't afford to influence every state legislature in the country which leads to lawmakers actually listening to common sense and taking notice of the success of other states. We have our victories because of the states. The feds have tried very hard to limit our rights. Maybe you noticed what was proposed by the feds after Sandy Hook. That's the type of gun control they would push on all of us if they could. And if they succeed in totally nationalizing the issue they will have a far better chance of succeeding in that goal.

Yes I know the NRA is pushing for national reciprocity. They're wrong for doing it. IMO they have a vested interest in making things national also. They take in a lot of money and a lot of people get paid well by them. Don't think there isn't some part of that group that wants more money spent on a national level. I am a 5 year member but I totally disagree with the direction they are taking here. Yes it's wrong for states like Maryland to target gun owners like they do. But a national reciprocity act is a nationalization of the CCW issue and IMO that is a HUGE mistake. If you can show me where the feds have helped us out on gun issues at any time in the last 30 years I might believe in letting them have a hand in controlling such things. But they have fought long and hard to take away rights. They may have given us a slight break here and there but only because of a huge groundswell of support for an issue. And we just can't count on the public getting outraged often enough to keep the feds from taking away our CCW rights. If have learned anything about a federal system of government that's it. They will not help us unless they are forced to and that just doesn't happen often enough.

We need a law preventing states from targeting citizens based on lawful practices. We do NOT need the feds controlling concealed carry in any way. I don't want to have to get a "license" to carry a gun. Let's not forget that the big states push for such things. There's a reason CCW has worked at the state level while at the national level gun control is still high on the list of wished for items. The undue influence of states like NY and CA have too long caused us to lose rights. I dang sure don't want to hand them the keys to concealed carry and that's exactly what will happen if we go that route. Every state will have to comply with the wishes of the gun grabbing states. That's how it will work out. There are too many people in cities who have never seen a gun anywhere except on a cop or on tv. Those people fear guns. They can't go out in their back yard and shoot on Manhattan Island. They don't know guns so they fear guns. No way I want those people having a say in my right to carry.

Just look at the attitude the Hollyweird crowd has had about the movie "American Sniper". Do you want a highly concentrated group of people like that voting on your concealed carry rights? As it is they have isolated themselves in a few states. Good. I hope they stay there and leave the rest of us alone. But they have their entire self worth tied up into what they can do to "help the world" which in their eyes means "get rid of guns". Read what Bryant "Dumbell" Gumbel has to say about the NRA and it's members. A lot of people like him live in CA and NY. Let them control themselves and leave us the heck alone (forget the constitution - they sure do - I certainly wouldn't trust the feds to actually follow it when it comes to gun control of any kind).

http://dailycaller.com/2015/01/24/g...olling-stone-about-hating-nra-calls-nra-pigs/

He said exactly this:

“There are a few things I hate more than the NRA,” he said. “I mean truly. I think they’re pigs. I think they don’t care about human life. I think they are a curse upon the American landscape."

That's the media, that's the people who say we live in flyover country, that's the people who would take away your rights. I don't want them having one word to say about it. Yes I know he's just one person but look at the polls (if you can find an honest poll on the subject at all anyway). It's the big coastal states that carry the weight of the gun control movement and cause us so much grief on this issue. No way I want them usurping the power of my state to do the right thing.
 
Last edited:
I'm happy to see a pro-2A article mainstream.

But I've been thinking about this one for a bit and I agree with those who have concerns about the federal government controlling CCW laws.

Two thoughts:

1: While states make their fair share of mistakes, I'd much rather trust my state to protect my rights rather than the Federal government. If the Feds got ahold of this one, it would cost money (and we know the Fed likes to spend a lot more than it needs to) and it would open up the possibility of Federal agents prodding even deeper into personal gun ownership.

2: if it ever passed, some states would end up more restrictive than before the law was passed. Of that, I am certain.
 
some states would end up more restrictive than before the law was passed. Of that, I am certain.

Zactly. And my state is one that would almost certainly lose rights. It's a no win situation for me. I can avoid Maryland like the plague. I've been there. I wasn't all that impressed. It's ok if you like that sort of place but I'm a hillbilly so I don't get to that side of the mountains all that often.
 
While calling for a national carry LAW wasn't the point of the article, and digging into the nuts and bolts of a national carry LAW wasn't my point in starting the thread, I'll comment a little on that:

some states would end up more restrictive than before the law was passed. Of that, I am certain.
Zactly. And my state is one that would almost certainly lose rights.

Without knowing what's exactly ever going to come to the table it is hard to say what COULD happen, but there's no compelling reason to think any state would ever be forced to tighten its requirements for carry -- or even to HAVE any requirements for carry.

A federal law could look like a number of things.

1) It could say, "states shall give full faith and credit to the process by which every other state recognizes its citizens' ability to carry a firearm." That doesn't require anyone change anything at all. If you can carry in your home state, you can carry in any other state. (As Kentucky and some others do now.)

2) It could say, "States shall give full faith and credit to the carry permits of states that issue a carry permit." Ok, sorry Constitutional Carry states. If your citizens want to carry in other states, you'll have to offer them SOMETHING as a credential, if you care. No state forced to do anything at all, but five or six states faced with the choice of whether to offer their citizens a sort of "out-of-this-state carry permit" -- which some of them already do. Don't want to add this element to your state's laws? Don't recognize your authority as a state government to make any declaration about a citizen's right to carry a gun? Fine! Your citizens won't have what's needed to take advantage of this new law, but they are no better or worse off than before.

3) It could say, "States shall give full faith and credit to any other state's carry permit IF that permit meets the following training and background checking requirements..." Ok, sorry Constitutional Carry states, and states like PA or others which don't require training. No state forced to do anything at all, but a lot of them COULD choose to increase their requirements, or could choose to offer a supplemental level of "enhanced" permit to meet that requirement, or could just choose to ignore the matter and carry on as before. Don't want to increase your state's licensing requirements? Fine! Your citizens won't have what's needed to take advantage of this new law, but they are no better or worse off than before. If any of their citizens want to take advantage of the federal law, they'll have to make some other arrangement on their own, like getting a UT permit or whatever so they meet the federal standard.

4) It could say, "There will be a federal universal carry permit established, and to obtain that universal ability to carry, the citizen must apply to the FBI (or BATFE, or whomever) on form 5320.666 and establish his or her bona fides...The following requirements must be met." That would make it so no state had to change anything at all about its own carry requirements. Nothing. All on the federales to handle the permitting and training matters. A state's citizens can obtain that federal permit, or not, and it doesn't change anything about that state's system.

What I DON'T see happening is any possibility of the federal government FORCING a state to change its requirements. That would be completely unnecessary in any of the likely scenarios I've listed. Why would they even wade into that fight? Why go to battle with 50 different opponents over a question of federalism when they can simply say, "These are the requirements we establish (if any). Meet them if you want to participate"?

As we've seen with interstate highway issues and speed limits, states really don't seem to have much of a problem telling the fed.gov where to stick their ideas for tightened limits and restrictions.

So I find the idea that states would "lose rights" or "become more restrictive" far from a certainty, and almost the least likely possibility.
 
Last edited:
The Government of the United States (Feral Government) already has a law it is supposed to abide, and the governance within the several states must abide that law as well. It is the Second Added Article to the Constitution (AKA the Second Amendment). Nothing more is needed, nothing less is acceptable.

Woody

"I pledge allegiance to the rights that made and keep me free. I will preserve and defend those rights for all who live in this union as founded on the belief and supported by the principle that those rights are inalienable and essential to the pursuit and preservation of life, liberty, property, and happiness." B.E.Wood
 
Of course, of course. And that's a beautiful picture of a lovely world of sunshine and enlightenment.

But that isn't the world we're living in, so saying that over and over doesn't let anyone carry a gun without risking being branded a felon and thrown in jail. I want to live in that world as much as you do, but living in this world means we have to work with the cards we're dealt. If you want no changes to the current system, fine, and I understand your reasoning. But that's not the same thing as saying the current system operates under the Constitution as you read it.

Does allowing a system (under federal law, or not under a federal law) by which all states recognize each other's (clearly unConstitutional!!!) concealed carry permits further break the world we live in to a significant degree? That's the real question for those trying to balance their Strict Interpretation-ist dreams with let's-not-all-get-locked-up-now reality.

Does the damage done to our already tainted system by these changes (whatever they end up looking like) outweigh the benefits to those of us already living under this already tainted system?

Let's face it, I already contort my beliefs enough to have begged both my state and another one for my rights to carry a concealed firearm. I want to be able to protect myself and my family and I don't want to spend my life in jail and/or disarmed by the state. Being in Oklahoma, you have too, haven't you? Of course you have. We can pick THIS spot to stand and shout "NOT ANOTHER STEP OF GOVERNMENT ENCROACHMENT!!!" But why there? Why right at that spot and not some other?
 
Last edited:
Once again, we're faced with a shining example of how for some absolutists the glass is always half-empty. When I initially saw this thread opened, I recognized it for exactly how it was intended -- an opportunity to take brief moment pleasure in seeing a distinctly pro-gun feature in a mostly left-wing mainstream media outlet. That should be recognized as progress, one small step for our side, right?

Yet so many here just want to continue griping about how the 2A is the only law needed and "nothing less is acceptable." Or forecast gloom and doom if nationwide reciprocity were ever to be achieved ...

Sheesh. What a bunch of curmudgeons.
 
Sheesh. What a bunch of curmudgeons.

Very cool! Curmudgeons! Bill O'Reilly's word for the day. I've been waiting for years for it to come up. :D You are correct, Will. It can be sad. As I said earlier, Jeff Jacoby is firmly on our side.
 
Curmudgeons? Maybe. Idealists? Sure. Nothing wrong with that. I've been poking Woody pretty hard here and I hope it isn't taken in any sort of mean-spirited way. We need people trying to pull us back to whatever the founders laid out.

(Not that any of us have a clear idea of what life would actually look like under a strict interpretation of the US Constitution. Our grand-daddies' grand-daddies' daddies didn't live under such a thing. Heck, the 2nd Amendment wasn't incorporated against the States until 90 years into this grand experiment. Might be no federal gun control but your state laws would be like Great Britain's or Japan's by now...:eek: There's a good argument to be made that the USA would have dissolved already under an absolute strict interpretation, and who knows WHAT government you'd be living under!)

But I do like to challenge our strict interpretationalist buddies ("The 2nd Amendment is MY carry permit!") to explain some plausible path for getting from today to their hoped-for tomorrow. If you're against this, that, and the other, what are you FOR and how do you plan for us to get there?
 
We need people trying to pull us back to whatever the founders laid out.
And that ... I believe, could not happen unless there was a total dissolution of these United States. Possibly something along the lines of what authors such as D.J. Molles or G. Michael Hopf have laid out (less any scenario involving zombies).

Unless we could somehow get back to the social mores of yesteryear. But alas, the advances in technology seem to have rendered the concept of privacy -- which some construe as advances in security -- moot. Like it or not -- and the strict constructionists do not -- our society is not likely to devolve, but continue to evolve. Do we attempt to influence this evolution, or just retreat while shouting pithy slogans and talk about how great the old light bulb was ...

Saying things such as, "The Second Amendment is the only carry permit I should ever need" is simply operating under an old paradigm. The new paradigm is working within a constantly shifting hodgepodge of convoluted regulation; I fear we have gone so far over the tipping point with regard to governmental regulation, that we are merely tilting at windmills if we believe that we can eliminate much regulation. Faced with the specter of impending regulation, do we attempt to influence the quality, quantity and nuances of the regulation, or do we retreat to our homesteads, hoist the Gadsden flag and cry out, "No, I shall not comply! Come and take them! The Second Amendment is my gospel!" -- at some point, one just has to acknowledge reality.
 
Last edited:
If you're against this, that, and the other, what are you FOR and how do you plan for us to get there?

And further, how are we harmed by using the tools of today's government to accomplish a positive end, even if we wish those tools didn't exist? Will our principled refusal to accept and use them make any difference to anyone beyond ourselves, who can only be inconvenienced and potentially endangered by so refusing?
 
Yet so many here just want to continue griping about how the 2A is the only law needed and "nothing less is acceptable." Or forecast gloom and doom if nationwide reciprocity were ever to be achieved ...

Yet here I thought made a positive comment about the article linked in the OP. Funny how I went from thinking it was great that a left leading, NE corridor rag actually published anything remotely pro gun to demanding total and complete adherence to the 2A without me ever knowing I did it. Wow I must have powers even I haven't dreamed of! I wonder when I made the switch without telling myself about it because I look back at my posts and don't see any place where I said anything about the 2A or nothing. Maybe I'll figure out what I was thinking some day (yes this is "sarcasm").

Excuse me that I trust the vehicle that has given us concealed carry rights, (state governments) while distrusting the feds. Call me a cynic if you want but a "curmudgeon"??? Excuse me that I like things as they are and I don't want the feds to rock the boat (which I believe they would certainly do - they couldn't require states to enforce CCW laws they really didn't want to enforce but they could certainly convince many states to join a national coalition that would almost certainly not be geared toward our goals. Thinking the feds wouldn't try to make things bad for us is to ignore their long term trend IMO.

Sam I know I'm taking the paranoid approach but I think it's the correct approach given the long history of gun grabbing by the federal government. Ever since they figured out that whole interstate commerce scam they think they can do whatever they want. Yes I would like a true 2A driven government but I don't expect it given the supreme court rulings. I just don't want to move along a path I think will cost us rights instead of giving us more rights.
 
Well, yes, we can discuss Constitutional Carry if you like, but the point I was going for here is the pleasantness of finding an editorial column in a major newspaper from a large (-ish ... hey, I lived there, I can tease!) northeastern city coming out so clearly on "our" side of this issue and presenting the case in terms the residents of such a place have some hope of "getting."

Must be the warm sunny winter weather that has everyone in a generous mood.
 
Off topic but for those who don't know you must give a thumbprint in CA to get a drivers license.. Of course now they issue them to illegal aliens.

I live in CA and everybody should be concerned if CA has anything to do with their gun rights.

Where I live they control when you can and cannot have a fire in your fireplace. Not an approved day = big fine. Their crazy car smog laws are a PITA. The smog laws even apply to lawn mowers, chainsaws, etc. We must have CA apporved small equipment engines.

Not serious of course but Californias version

No lead bullets allowed for SD. (they already managed this for hunters)
You can only fire your gun on ceratin days when we determine the air quality is ok (as determined by the Air polluction control district, non elected civil servants) (they are probably working on this)

It must have pollution control device that you have to pay to have tested every two years. (already have to buy the permit to purchase a handgun every couple years)

It must be on our approved list of guns.
(as an FYI for those who don't know a Springfield XD with a green plastic frame is different than the one with a black plastic frame and must be tested and approved seperately)

I could go on but you get the general idea.
CA already has to much say at the national level due to the way the electoral college works, but thats another issue.

I don't mean this to be a rant but if you don't know already this State is nuts IMO.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top