So this girl called the police on me...

[insidious_calm]

It seems to me that the relevant questions are as follows:

1) Did the anonymous caller simply report "a man with a gun", or was a specific crime alleged?

2) Was the dispatcher or shift supervisor able to discern a specific crime had been committed based upon the imformation provided by the anonymous caller?

3) Did the officer PERSONALLY observe or know from first hand knowledge reasonable articulable facts that a crime had been, is being, or is about to be committed?


Unless the answer to one of these questions is yes, the responding officer(s) did not even have the legal authority to initiate the stop. His conduct after that is a seperate issue. Personally I feel the officer over reacted. Being cautious is one thing. Approaching the vehicle with your hand on your weapon is one thing. The stated conduct goes well beyond "officer safety" imho. In fact it would amount to a crime here if the premise for the stop was unlawful as qualified immunity does not apply if the officer could have been reasonably expected to know that the stop was unlawful.

It seems to me that without further knowledge the appropriate course of action is to get a copy of the 911 call and transcript, via discovery if necessary, and determine exactly what the dispatcher was told. That way the detainee could determine whether in fact the stop itself was even lawful. Personally I'd demand at least an apology for the officers conduct during the stop. If the stop was in fact unlawful, well, in that event the detainee should seek the appropriate legal remedies and the officer(s) should be punished.

I.C.


P.S. This is NOT cop bashing. Personally I'm a little sick of the "non-leo" bashing I've seen lately. ALL types of bashing need to stop.

 

[gezzer]

What I can't understad is why she should even see him leaving the firing line. Any one who has been there knows at knight the only way would be if she was parked getting *!@#$. It is not in a very public area what is called an industrial area with the line about the only open buss in the area.

Most of us in Free NH know the manchester cops as can you say wanabees.

By the way she could see me leaving there with my machine guns as thats my dealer for NFA. And my plate is SUBGUNS

 

[Nashmack]

Manedwolf I was referring to the loaded down frangible ammo that you need in order to shoot rifle calibers at TFL. Gezzer, I'm fairly certain it was one of the people attending the softball practice across the street at the diamond.

I am fairly certain this came in as a "MWG" call.

 

[LAR-15]

The minute I read the first post, I knew the caller was from Mass.

 

[insidious_calm]

Nashmack,

It's your decision. If indeed it came in as "a man with a gun" then the entire premise of the stop was unlawful. Personally I'd sue. It's not really about harming the officer(s) or his carreer, but he needs to be held accountable for his actions and a clear message needs to be sent to his peers about right and wrong. The city/county needs to be accountable too if they failed to train the officer so that he didn't know what he was doing was wrong or unlawful. It doesn't strike me as a mis-understanding, but I wasn't there, and the officer involved is not going to change his attitude unless you give him a reason to. You were treated like some subrate second class citizen, a felon, because of some officers irrational fear of the citizenry and/or his lack of proper training and respect. The lack of respect displayed in assuming your guilt before knowing anything about the situation would have been enough for me. If he didn't have the common decency of respect then he doesn't deserve any in return.

The whole thing could have been handled by approaching the car while shielding his body with the car. He could have asked if you were armed and asked you to exit the vehicle and disarmed you in a respectful manner. It simply was not handled in a professional or appropriate way imho. Others on here will tell you that as long as john law goes home at night ANYTHING goes. Only you can decide what your personal limit for disrespect is. Best of luck in whatever path you choose.

I.C.

 

[Nashmack]

This morning I was pulled over 3 times, once in Merrimack on my way to work, and twice while working (my job occasionally entails driving around Manchester early in the morning, checking certain addresses to make sure delivery instructions are followed, that indeed the newspaper is getting to the address, redelivering Boston Globes as needed, etc). The reasons for these stops were because of a taillight that was out, and I was quite surprised all three times I was stopped.

First stop, route 3 north, approximately an eighth mile south of Maple Ridge condominiums and 7-11:

I saw the cruiser pass me coming from the opposite direction (heading south), he made a wide turn and came up behind me rather quickly. I proceeded to pull to the shoulder, even though he didn't have his blues on yet. Officer flicked on the blues after about 5 seconds. Officer walked up to the window, and asked for liscence/reg, I informed him that I had a pistol on my hip and had to reach past it to reach my liscence/pistol permit, and offered to step out of my vehicle. Officer said stay put, go ahead and grab your liscence, reg, and permit. I complied, handed said documents to the officer, and watched him turn his back to me and walk back to his cruiser. Waited 5 minutes, officer comes back, hands me my documents and a defective eqipment tag (it just says get it fixed ASAP), and wished me a nice morning, and told me I'd probably be more comfortable driving if I took the pistol and mag pouch off my belt and kept them between my seats.

Second and third times, in Manchester, first on Union St, second time on North River Rd.: Checking addresses for proper delivery, cruiser rolls up, window rolls down, spotlight shines first on me, then the numbers on the side of the house. Officer says "Hey Mr. R******, I see you're checking on your carriers, quiet night?"

For the most part I dont have any problems with the LEOs around here

 

[insidious_calm]

Your last post is the perfect example of how your first encounter should have gone. There was simply no reason or excuse for being made to prone out on the asphalt while being treated in a manner not suitable for a king's subject, let alone an american citizen. It is also proof that there are some officers in the area who get it and further suggests corrective action for those who don't.


I.C.

 

[Duke Lacross]

seems like I always have some hysterical female calling on me.
WHAT GIVES

 

[Templar223]

I'd be ticked if I got on the receiving end of a felony stop for no good reason.

I'd probably ask for a written letter of apology from the department.

And if the pavement weren't clean and dry, I'd probably consider a civil suit.

John

 

[SomeKid]

Insiduius,

and asked you to exit the vehicle and disarmed you in a respectful manner.

There is no possibly way to be disarmed respectfully. Whenever it is done it is an insult to a mans freedoms, and a show of power. It should only be done to criminals, never to citizens.

Nash, stop telling cops you are armed unless they ask. It is none of their business.

 

[Nashmack]

SomeKid, I always inform law enforcement because if I dont, they get uneasy. Uneasy means they draw because when it all boils down, if it comes down to them or me walking away, they wanna be the ones still vertical. Understandable?

 

[panzermk2]

Nashmack
I am from the midwest but I travel to NH for my job so you will get this right away.
She must have been a transplanted Masshole

 

[ARTiger]

I have a hunting/fishing cabin in a remote area with a lot of other similar cabins. We have plenty of rattlesnakes, coyotes, hogs, bear and an occasional cat around (not to mention some really big raccoons with attitudes). A lot of us myself included think nothing of strapping on a pistol, open carry in a belt holster. We go about our day like this - go into town (pop 315) eat at the diner, go to the grocery store, etc. kinda what you would think of as "old west". I usually pack a GP100 or my S&W 629 - more often than not in warm weather loaded with shotshells for the damned timber rattlers.

Well, there's a main highway about 15 miles away that gets a lot of tourist traffic - out of stater's going to lakes, etc. There's a large convenience store there with a good diner attached we go to sometimes. It's real common that the state police get a frantic cellphone call from some busybody tourist reporting all us armed desperados at the KwikStop. Most of the troopers in the area hang out there as well and they all get a good laugh about these calls.

Seems some folks work themselves up into a tissy fit just at the sight of a man with a gun on his hip sitting down to a plate of steak and eggs or filling up his gas tank.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Nash, stop telling cops you are armed unless they ask. It is none of their business.

It happens that you are correct that in NH he is not required to notify an LEO that he is carrying, but did you check the NH statutes before posting? Are you aware that a great many states DO require you to notify an LEO that you are carrying when you encounter them in any "official" capacity?

 

[SomeKid]

Hawk, 'great many' is rather subjective. Numerically, only a few require it. NC, TX, UT, OH, LA, SC, MI, and I think one or two others. That is out of 49 states that have some form of legal carry method. Lets say I forgot 3. That would mean 10 states had mandated notification laws. Out of 49 states with some kind of carry laws. While I would like to see no states with such laws, from a numbers outlook, only a few have the onerous requirement.

NH is not on the list of states mandating you notify government when you carry. Check packing for lots of little info.

What irks me about the whole notification thing, is the states that require it. CA? No. NJ? No. NY? No. Aside from MI, all of those are Republican states. Some, such as Texas and Utah, are considered conservative. Yet, they still have this absurd requirement.

 

[pete f]

The caller had to be an escapee from massachusetts.

My father lives half the year in florida. As it is his official state of residence he has a Ruger Mk2 with a can for pest removal. He had just potted a rather large and messy Possum from the car port and was getting ready to toss it into the dumpster at the end of his driveway. He looked up and here was a Squad car pulling up, Dad hefted the possum and flipped it into the can. He still had the Mk2 in his hand. The cop got out, walked up and told my dad that was one big possum, to which my dad responded, yeah took three minimags to get it to stop. Cop laughs and asks to see the pistol. He comments that is very nice, just about that time some lady comes running from behind another unit yelling "thats him, officer!! thats him" in a heavy new joisy accent. My Dad looks to the officer and the officer just smiles and says "yup ma'am" and hands the pistol back to my dad. She just stops and screams "WHAT ARE YOU DOING!!" and the Officer says "giving back his property." She screams again "BUT ITS A GUN!!" and the cops said, "yeah and its a nice one, now just relax and go back home" My father asked the cop if wanted to try the pistol and the cop said I would like that and they walked back to the edge of the property and the officer put a couple of rounds into a stunp back there. About this time the officers radio beeped again and after a minute of listening, he rolls his eyes and says "she just called my boss." And he walked off toward the house she was in.


My father got a call later that day from the officer saying that the lady was from New Jersey and could not get it thru her head that it was LEGAL for my dad to do what he had done, and that owning a pistol did not make him a criminal. The officer said that after she had called the Mayors office to complain that even the chief of police would not listen to her, a city hall worker had told her to pack up and leave, that they lived in AMERICA and if she did not like it, they had planes leaving everyday.

 

[heypete]

I got pulled over on the highway in Arizona by the Highway Patrol about 5 minutes after crossing the CA-AZ border. Immediately after crossing the border, I took the G19 out of the locked bag in the back, slapped a mag into it, chambered a round, then holstered it in the Fobus holster on my left hip. (I don't have a CCW in AZ, so I have to open carry...no permit necessary. Ah, freedom.)

Anyway, I got pulled over for something trivial like a plastic cover over my license plates or some such.

DPS officer's on the passenger side, and I have my window rolled down to communicate with him. He asks for my license and registration. Before reaching for it, I informed him that I was openly carrying a handgun on my left hip so he wouldn't be alarmed if he were to see it.

He asked what I was carrying...I told him a "Glock 19". He shruged, said the department issued them Sigs, which he really liked, said something about "just make sure it stays in the holster, ok?", and then said it was ok if I got out the license and registration.

In California, I would have likely been booked with a dozen different charges after being tased and roughed up a few times.

 

[Manedwolf]

Officer walked up to the window, and asked for liscence/reg, I informed him that I had a pistol on my hip and had to reach past it to reach my liscence/pistol permit, and offered to step out of my vehicle. Officer said stay put, go ahead and grab your liscence, reg, and permit.

There's no requirement for you to inform you're carrying in NH. That's just adding time to your stop. Why tell them?

I was stopped for a registration sticker that fell off, they didn't ask. I don't think they care, really.

 

[Werewolf]

Numerically, only a few require it. NC, TX, UT, OH, LA, SC, MI, and I think one or two others.

Add OK to that list. You must inform a LEO who interacts with you in an official capacity that you are carrying. If you don't and he finds out not only will you lose your permit but bubba in the county lockup might just become your new best friend for a while.

 

[Nashmack]

Once again, the reason for informing the officer was so that he wouldn't all of a sudden see my sidearm, think I'm going for it, with the end result of me bleeding out rather quickly from a center of mass hit, or being dropped immediately from a central nervous hit. Normally if I have my pistol on the floor (happens when I have a new driver riding with me on their first day, never can tell who is and who isnt a transplanted Masshole these days), I dont inform the LEO that I have a pistol in the vehicle. Now Londonderry on the other hand...once they identify that I'm in the vehicle they ask me if I'm carrying, and of course I answer truthfully.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I notice that SomeKid didn't answer my question (whether he had checked the NH law before responding, or lucked into a correct answer), but to settle the issue I just spent some quality time over on Packing.org. Based on the listings at www.packing.org, the following states require that you notify when carrying:

AL
AK *
LA
MI
NC
OH **
OK
SC
TX ***
UT

In addition, there were perhaps a half dozen states listed as "unknown."

The footnotes:

* There's a note for AK saying that the "must notify" statute was ruled unconstitutionally vague. However, it does not say the law was repealed, so it is still on the books and it probably isn't wise to assume that all LEOs know it has been ruled unconstitutionally vague

** The section discussing this for OH specifically states that it applies to passengers as well as drivers

*** The TX law says you must notify when asked by an LEO for ID, and the example cited is a traffic stop when asked for your driver's license.

In summary, we have ten states with a duty to notify and another six or so that are unknown. Since I don't expect to be able to keep track of which states require it and which don't, I'll take the path of prudent courtesy and notify in all states where I'm legal to carry. Y'all can do as you wish.

 

[K-Romulus]

The officer said that after she had called the Mayors office to complain that even the chief of police would not listen to her, a city hall worker had told her to pack up and leave, that they lived in AMERICA and if she did not like it, they had planes leaving everyday.

Whenever I start to get depressed over Ted Kennedy/The UN/Rebecca Peters/Mikey Bloomberg, etc., I read a story like this and feel much better about our country's future . .

 

[John-Melb]

Posted elsewhere on THR

This is part of one of my posts from elsewhere on THR but it's probably relevant here..............................

A number of years ago a mate and I were going rabbit shooting on another mates farm, we had parked the car on the side of the road, opened the boot I had passed tom his gun which hed had placed on the other side of the fence and I was standing at the rear of the car putting my double together. A police car came over the rise, put on it's lights and bells and pulled in behind us. I said to tom, I think is a licence check. As the two officers got out of their car they were clearly facing two real nasty looking dudes, Tom was leaning against the fence rolling a cigarette, with his gun and cartridge belt laying on the other side of the fence. I was standing at the rear of my car, gun broken, clearly unloaded and tucked in the crook of my arm whilst my hands were busily packing my pipe. The Senior Constable got out of the car and walked towards smiling and asking something like "what are you two up too?". His much younger offsider took up a somewhat defensive position behing his car door with his hand on the butt of his revolver. The young constable appeared to get quite upset when tom and I started laughing at him. I get the feeling the older Senior Connie latter gave his young off-sider a talking too.

 

[Nashmack]

John-Melb, I take it you're from Austrailia?

 

[ArmedBear]

Being from California, I couldn't resist strapping on a SAA in a cowboy holster when I took my dog out to pee in AZ. Never know what you might find in a hotel parking lot in broad daylight.