Stevie-Ray
Member
I agree with that. And on that DVD, I would also like to see the field-strip procedure filmed first person. For example, there's probably a lot of Ruger Mark I and Mark II owners that could benefit.
Some long overdue common sense for firearm owners.
- Thread starter wacki
- Start date
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Don't Tread On Me
Member
First of all, no one is attacking Wacki. I appreciate this discussion, and I believe it is a repectful civilized discussion. If I'm attacking anything, it is the notion that we're doing something positve for the RKBA by lowering gun deaths from 1.43% to 1.41%.
I'm not against the concept of firearms safety or instruction. However, I believe there are plenty of avenues for one to educate themselves on firearms and firearm safety IF THEY WANT TO. You can lead a horse to water but....
If you think that this is a good PR move for the RKBA, think again. It will accomplish nothing, zip, zero, zilch. For one, the anti's don't care how many or how few people die of gun violence or gun accidents. They don't care if just 1 person a year dies. For crying out loud, they fabricate gun accident figures! They lie. They will use any tactic they can. They hate your RKBA. End of story.
The moderates or fence riders are uneducated of all things related to firearms. You're not going to convince them against gun control because you promote safety videos. They must be made to understand to live with RKBA, bad and good.
Secondly, my RKBA is not subject to public opinion polls. What some people think of my rights is irrelevant. God gave them to me, no one can take them away. That's how it works.
Now, if you think this is a good idea to promote safety, merely because you'd like to save lives - ok, I'm all for that. The best way to do it, would be to produce a video that not only has safety, but has some tactical instruction. You'd have to put something good in there other than "boring" safety stuff which most people will just snooze through or cause them to throw the DVD in the garbage. Incorporating safety with a 30 minute Clint Smith instructional would be great. No one would throw that away, and most people would watch it. That would work. Also, the manufacturer who produces the DVD can have plenty of infomercial/brochure style showcases for their accessories or other products with examples of the stuff in action. Some members already suggested some of these ideas.
I'm not against the concept of firearms safety or instruction. However, I believe there are plenty of avenues for one to educate themselves on firearms and firearm safety IF THEY WANT TO. You can lead a horse to water but....
If you think that this is a good PR move for the RKBA, think again. It will accomplish nothing, zip, zero, zilch. For one, the anti's don't care how many or how few people die of gun violence or gun accidents. They don't care if just 1 person a year dies. For crying out loud, they fabricate gun accident figures! They lie. They will use any tactic they can. They hate your RKBA. End of story.
The moderates or fence riders are uneducated of all things related to firearms. You're not going to convince them against gun control because you promote safety videos. They must be made to understand to live with RKBA, bad and good.
Secondly, my RKBA is not subject to public opinion polls. What some people think of my rights is irrelevant. God gave them to me, no one can take them away. That's how it works.
Now, if you think this is a good idea to promote safety, merely because you'd like to save lives - ok, I'm all for that. The best way to do it, would be to produce a video that not only has safety, but has some tactical instruction. You'd have to put something good in there other than "boring" safety stuff which most people will just snooze through or cause them to throw the DVD in the garbage. Incorporating safety with a 30 minute Clint Smith instructional would be great. No one would throw that away, and most people would watch it. That would work. Also, the manufacturer who produces the DVD can have plenty of infomercial/brochure style showcases for their accessories or other products with examples of the stuff in action. Some members already suggested some of these ideas.
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
wacki, what do you think the NRA has been doing since before you were even aware of what a gun was? I don't think anyone's losing a war here.
And, I don't think safe gun handling instructional materials belong intertwined with political campaigns.
Have you even looked into what the NRA has produced?
wacki
Member
Oh really? Well after discovering gunfacts.info I decided to poll some people at my local gun club on some really basic gun statistics. I suggest you go out to the streets of your local metropolis and ask them the following questions:
1) "What is more dangerous to a 5 year old, a bucket of water or a gun?"
2) T/F a swimming pool is 100x more dangerous than a gun.
3) T/F You are 43x more likely to kill a family member than a stranger with a gun.
4) T/F Of the worlds top 5 strongest economies, the nations with the lowest suicide rate have the strictest gun control.
And see how many people get those right. I'd love to see the results in Chicago. Here's a hint: nobody at my local gun club got those right. Granted I phrased some of them a little differently to make the answers difficult to spot (multiple choice or embedded in a conversation, people tend to guess right if they know they are being set up) but you get the point. More people were quoting false anti-statistics then the legit ones.
Well that is your personal opinion and one I disagree with. Just because they are on the same DVD doesn't mean they have to be "intertwined". You can have 5 different companies making 5 different videos with 5 different goals. The single DVD can be *officially* written off as merely a method of conservation. Something that is a legitimate argument because it would be a bit wasteful to send out 5 different DVD's just for PR reasons. If you want to keep a mental barrier just use the other side of the DVD for the political stuff. But even if a gun company agrees with you it's pretty easy to keep it a-political. There is a lot of misinformation out there. I do not consider debunking false statistics to be a political effort but rather a matter of truth and hard science.
Well I did reference them in this thread. So yes, I have. I have also referenced them on my blog. I still think it could be dramatically improved upon. I've been exposed to a reasonable amount of PR efforts and websites generally aren't enough. If they were then scientists wouldn't have had so much trouble debunking the "Sound Science Coalition"'s take on tobacco induced cancer and countless other things. Websites are a good way of documenting information but they really aren't an effective means of changing the general publics opinion.
ripcurlksm
Member
Maybe this is because I lack as much experience as other people on this forum, but I am pretty set on keeping my gun with an empty chamber for maximum safety.
I choose C3 because if I need to draw my weapon, I need a second to draw it and a fraction of a second to rack the slide on my 1911. The way I see it is if I dont have enough time to do this, having a bullet in the chamber with the safety on is going to take just as long. If I dont get 2 seconds, I see it as too late anyway, so I opt C3. Am I off base on this one?
I choose C3 because if I need to draw my weapon, I need a second to draw it and a fraction of a second to rack the slide on my 1911. The way I see it is if I dont have enough time to do this, having a bullet in the chamber with the safety on is going to take just as long. If I dont get 2 seconds, I see it as too late anyway, so I opt C3. Am I off base on this one?
Ryder
Member
I'll take a stab at that. You reacted by accepting the gun. That is what you did wrong.
You should have refused to accept it. An appropriate response would have been something like "Put that thing away
".Someone else asked why you were passing around a gun in a restaurant. I haven't seen your answer.
Playing show and tell in public makes the issue of it being loaded or not insignificant.
GW
Member
Well, yes. I recommend strongly that you get some training
With training you will learn how to draw a Cocked & locked 1911, essentially taking off the thumb-safety as you are bringing the gun onto target. Drawing, racking & aiming will take waaay too long, with too many chances for something to go wrong such as your hand slipping on the slide as you try to rack it
IMHO, if you are drawing your gun, you need it ready to shoot, and you don't need to be wasting time fumbling with a slide.
Molon Labe
Member
So, um, when someone is giving you a gun, do you ask them if it I unloaded before accepting it?
Not me. I'm a big boy. And while I have immense respect for guns, I'm also not afraid of them. I simply check the magazine and chamber (ever time!) and make it safe.
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
Yes, really. The number of states that have liberalized concealed carry laws has grown considerably, and it started when Clinton was in office. You might not remember, but a decade ago Democrats ran on campaigns with gun control at the top of their agenda, right at the TOP, blatant, and with no attempt to couch what they were doing. Now . . . the party realizes its a loosing issue to advocate that, and they have backed off it. They might still want it, but they don't publicize it and make it a party platform.
No, we're not losing. The NRA, and others with fund raising agendas might have you believe it, but we've reached a DMZ of sorts on new gun control, and even made ground on some areas.
And, I do most ardently believe that safe gun handling education be devoid of politics. For it to have credibility, its best to simply be objective, and stick to the mechanics of educating a person how to safely handle a firearm. Eddie Eagle wouldn't be as successful, and wouldn't get into the avenues it has, if it loaded its presentations and materials up with political agendas. Including what you're demanding is advocacy, and advocating a position is politicking.
Yes, I believe you are right.
Thefabulousfink
Member
I never said that the gun community failed anybody, I was trying to say that we can do more. I am a firm believer in personal responsibilty and when an adult shoots himself or sombody else, no one else is responsible. However, every time a drunken idiot puts a bullet somewhere it doesn't belong, the anti's use it to frighten the public about guns.
The right of self protection might be God-given, but that doesn't mean it is safe. The right to life is just as important, but in the last century, millions of people were killed by their governments. Like it or not we ARE in a popularity war with the anti's. As soon as they can be certain that 2/3rds of the population think guns are too dangerous to own, then the anti's will abolish the 2A. It happend in the UK, it happened in Austrailia, and it can happen here.
In the last 10 years, the image of the shooting community has made some amazing advancements. With groups like the Pink Pistols and 2nd Amendment Sisters we have been slowly breaking down the stereotype of the drunken racist redneck. We've got momentum now, lets keep the ball rolling. Can you honestly look at the Country today and say "the 2nd Amendment is safe, our work here is done"? We can not afford to stop and rest on our laurels, we have to press our advantage because if we don't, the anti's certainly will.
Waki:
This is the last I am going to say about it because I am trying to put out a flame war. I went back and re-read the initial posts and it seems like an argument over a mincing of words, aggravated by egos emotions and misunderstandings.
The NRA and the military teach that you allways assume a weapon is loaded (even if you have been told otherwise) until you have inspected it yourself. You are correct in the fact the the other person should have cleared the weapon or at least told you its condition (it is proper range etiquette); however, you described the situation in a way that lead others to believe that you wanted the other person to tell you the weapon's condition rather than checking yourself. The proper way to hand a gun to another person is: Person A opens the action and checks to make sure the weapon is clear, person A hand the weapon to person B, person B then opens the action and check to make sure the weapon is clear. That is the CORRECT way to pass a gun.
The right of self protection might be God-given, but that doesn't mean it is safe. The right to life is just as important, but in the last century, millions of people were killed by their governments. Like it or not we ARE in a popularity war with the anti's. As soon as they can be certain that 2/3rds of the population think guns are too dangerous to own, then the anti's will abolish the 2A. It happend in the UK, it happened in Austrailia, and it can happen here.
In the last 10 years, the image of the shooting community has made some amazing advancements. With groups like the Pink Pistols and 2nd Amendment Sisters we have been slowly breaking down the stereotype of the drunken racist redneck. We've got momentum now, lets keep the ball rolling. Can you honestly look at the Country today and say "the 2nd Amendment is safe, our work here is done"? We can not afford to stop and rest on our laurels, we have to press our advantage because if we don't, the anti's certainly will.
Waki:
This is the last I am going to say about it because I am trying to put out a flame war. I went back and re-read the initial posts and it seems like an argument over a mincing of words, aggravated by egos emotions and misunderstandings.
The NRA and the military teach that you allways assume a weapon is loaded (even if you have been told otherwise) until you have inspected it yourself. You are correct in the fact the the other person should have cleared the weapon or at least told you its condition (it is proper range etiquette); however, you described the situation in a way that lead others to believe that you wanted the other person to tell you the weapon's condition rather than checking yourself. The proper way to hand a gun to another person is: Person A opens the action and checks to make sure the weapon is clear, person A hand the weapon to person B, person B then opens the action and check to make sure the weapon is clear. That is the CORRECT way to pass a gun.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Every gun I've ever bought new came with an owner's manual. Now I've been in the education and training and business a looooong time, and take it from me, a simple, old printed manual is far better than a video or CD:
1. You don't need a machine to read the manual.
2. You can take it to the range with you -- where you have no access to power.
3. It's easy to find what you want in a manual.
4. People who will not read the manual will not play the CD or tape.
One more point -- firearms accidents are very rare. In fact, of all the accidents the government categorizes, firearms are far and away the least frequent. If not for the politics involved, they wouldn't be worth categeorizing at all.
Things like manuals, posters and fellow shooters work. The firearms accident rate is steadily going down.
So let's spend our time looking for solutions to real problems.
griz
Member
That's quite a long list. I'm still not conviniced that people who will not crack the owners manual will open a CD, but here is something else to consider.
Even though those items are doable, the gun company may not want to. About five ot ten years ago S&W put some ads in womens magazines. The way the media spouted off about it, you would think they were twisting women's arms and making them buy guns. Now that is only one little example, but my point is the best way for a company to deal with controversy is to avoid it. Siding with John Lott may be a can of worms they don't want to open.
Troutman
member
For Wacki,
They do promote recreational firearm use (as well as other firearm use)...i.e. hunting, home defense, ect, and it is on the cd as a direct link to the Smith & Wesson website. One does not need their cd to get to this information though.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CustomContentDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&content=11001
This has a vast amount of information, through their links and third party links as well. Just for the taking. Easy as the click of the mouse. Now, something that one would like to be added, one can e-mail those (S &W) about adding additional information, links, on their website. See if that helps.
As far as debatable issues ...Speaking for me, S & W is a firearms manufacturer. Not the law offices, lobbyists’/ or special interest group of Smith and Wesson. I just want to purchase a firearm from them, want good customer service, a warranty and a quality product from them. I don't want to know, or care how they feel (personally) about the 2A. I myself, could (not saying that I would or do) feel that I don't want a lobby/ special interest group to represent my views on the 2A. Not every one who owns a hand/long-gun is or wants to be, a member of the NRA.
If I want someone to explain, protect, promote those 2A rights, I will join (member myself) the NRA, and/or other org. Whole point.
This has been going on for years, the 2A debate. Their will always be people for and against firearms, or for anything else, for that matter. If one can change that, where no one will be against guns. More power to them. Remember... Power (money helps as well) is in numbers (people), not only in political offices. As we all now know in the past election. So, let the games begin.
Heck, just talking about this makes me want to break open that bottle of booze.
And make a donation to the Brady bunch. They have to get with the times. They need that automatic dishwasher, then and in today’s world. Where they can put the maid to better use than washing those dishes by hand. What a waste of man(maid)power.
They do promote recreational firearm use (as well as other firearm use)...i.e. hunting, home defense, ect, and it is on the cd as a direct link to the Smith & Wesson website. One does not need their cd to get to this information though.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CustomContentDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&content=11001
This has a vast amount of information, through their links and third party links as well. Just for the taking. Easy as the click of the mouse. Now, something that one would like to be added, one can e-mail those (S &W) about adding additional information, links, on their website. See if that helps.
As far as debatable issues ...Speaking for me, S & W is a firearms manufacturer. Not the law offices, lobbyists’/ or special interest group of Smith and Wesson. I just want to purchase a firearm from them, want good customer service, a warranty and a quality product from them. I don't want to know, or care how they feel (personally) about the 2A. I myself, could (not saying that I would or do) feel that I don't want a lobby/ special interest group to represent my views on the 2A. Not every one who owns a hand/long-gun is or wants to be, a member of the NRA.
If I want someone to explain, protect, promote those 2A rights, I will join (member myself) the NRA, and/or other org. Whole point.
This has been going on for years, the 2A debate. Their will always be people for and against firearms, or for anything else, for that matter. If one can change that, where no one will be against guns. More power to them. Remember... Power (money helps as well) is in numbers (people), not only in political offices. As we all now know in the past election. So, let the games begin.
Heck, just talking about this makes me want to break open that bottle of booze.
And make a donation to the Brady bunch. They have to get with the times. They need that automatic dishwasher, then and in today’s world. Where they can put the maid to better use than washing those dishes by hand. What a waste of man(maid)power.
wacki
Member
You should have refused to accept it. An appropriate response would have been something like "Put that thing away ".
Someone else asked why you were passing around a gun in a restaurant. I haven't seen your answer.[/QUOTE]
Um... where did I say I accepted it?
And what's your beef with the restaurant? What if it was in his home? Is there really that big of a difference? For what it's worth the walls of the room were concrete and we were the only ones in there. So I would think that room would be safer than his home. He had a CCW.
Is a gun club a public area? What about a gun show? What about the gun raffles at my local hunting lodge? Are those areas public?
wacki
Member
I've been shooting .22's, BB's, and trap since I was a cub scout. If I have any angst at all it's in how uneducated the general public is on the topic of guns. I've never seen a lecture by a gun rights person at any of the Universities I've attended. I've never seen a NRA pamphlet at any of the gun clubs I've been to. So it seems to me that the pro-RKBA campaign has a lot of room for improvement. This is especially true when the best video on the topic that I've seen was made by Penn & Teller. If I have any angst at all it's at the pro-RKBA members that carry the "we are already doing everything we can" mentality when it's obvious there is plenty of things that have never been tried.
It's nice to see some people (and even a moderator) making unsupportable derogatory assumptions about me though. Don't bother asking, just assume and state it as fact.
wacki
Member
Just because you have a DVD doesn't mean you can't have a safety manual as well. But there are things you can do on a DVD that you can't do in a book. Remember the DVD isn't just about safety. It's not a one trick pony. See the list i highlighted in red.
wacki
Member
See, now I just learned something. This is valuable information. However, I think this could very easily be avoided. The gun companies or the NRA could hire someone like Frank Luntz to avoid controversy. Frank Luntz is extremely good at what he does and politicians around the world hire him to wiggle their way out of a spot they don't want to be in. It can be done it just needs to be done properly. I know there have been people at this a long time but in all honesty I haven't been terribly impressed with the job the NRA has been doing. I fully expected to get flamed by that comment, but it's true. I've seen far better information campaigns by other industrial forces. I'm sure they do a ton of things I don't see. And I don't doubt they are very influential. It just seems obvious to me that they could learn a trick or two from various lobbying firms that routinely conflict with the scientific community. Granted I don't think they should associate themselves with those groups as those groups often don't play fair, but the pro-RKBA lobbyists could certainly learn a few tactics.
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wacki
Member
Don't Tread On Me, excellent ideas. See this is the kind of responses that I like!
BullfrogKen,
You don't think you can slip in a few stats anywhere? I mean you don't have to be blatantly RKBA but I'm sure it would be pretty easy to slip in a few stats that even gun control advocates agreed upon that were somewhat relevant to safety. Most credible gun control advocates will acknowledge that swimming pools are 100x more dangerous than a firearm. I even list a few on my blog.
That being said if you absolutely had to keep them separated they can be. I just see no reason why two different videos can't be on the same DVD. For instance, I see no reason why a video of Eddie Eagle couldn't be co-stored on the same DVD as a History Channel episode regarding the 2nd amendment and Thomas Jefferson. Something like that.
BullfrogKen,
You don't think you can slip in a few stats anywhere? I mean you don't have to be blatantly RKBA but I'm sure it would be pretty easy to slip in a few stats that even gun control advocates agreed upon that were somewhat relevant to safety. Most credible gun control advocates will acknowledge that swimming pools are 100x more dangerous than a firearm. I even list a few on my blog.
That being said if you absolutely had to keep them separated they can be. I just see no reason why two different videos can't be on the same DVD. For instance, I see no reason why a video of Eddie Eagle couldn't be co-stored on the same DVD as a History Channel episode regarding the 2nd amendment and Thomas Jefferson. Something like that.
rbernie
Contributing Member
Hmmmm - Pot, meet the Kettle.
Does this sound familiar? Some of your fellow forum members would consider this a unsupportable derogatory assumption.....
Presuming that your ideas to be so original, unique, and perfect as to render all others meaningless is a sin usually reserved for youth. <shrug> I could be wrong, but I've lived thru that and I remember what it's like. You started this conversation on a condescending note, you insulted anyone who didn't agree with you, and you bounced all over the map with your concerns and arguments. You've cleaned things up here lately, but you didn't start off very well. Expect to be taken to task for that; this forum largely expects and demands adult discourse.For what it's worth - I've been in probably three or four dozen gun shops in my life, and equal as many gun shows. Every single one of them had NRA pamphlets in 'em. Every one had the Second Amendment pasted somewhere on the wall in large letters. Every one had the usual self-defense books and trade rags on display for sale. Does that help the RKBA community? Not much. After all, the vast majority of folks who go to gun shops are gunnies themselves. Until you can penetrate, for example, the big box stores with this kind of stuff, you're wasting your time. And you'll not do that in your lifetime, I assure you.
Look, dude - in three separate posts now, I've advocated that you take your energy and focus it where it can do some good, using the NRA's Eddie Eagle program as an example. You've not responded to that, and I think that's a shame. You're screwing around with the dumbchit and missing the important stuff - the packaging is not nearly as important as getting the message out there. And the only way to get the message out there is for each and every one of us to carry it. All of the slick packaging and compilation in the world won't help you if nobody takes the time to listen and read.
- Volunteer to take the Eddie Eagle program into your local grade schools. Teach the next gneration not to screw around with this stuff but make sure that they know that there is a world of this stuff out there that TV won't show them.
- Ask Guy Smith for permission to take the gunfacts.info content and mail a paper copy to every one of your local, state, and Federal representatives. Do this yearly. DO IT. Put yourself in the drivers seat on this.
- Become an NRA certified firearms instructor, and provide inexpensive firearms safety training. Put up pamphlets for CCW firearms training on every bulletin board you can find. (Grocery stores are good for this kind of thing, but you'll have to keep putting them back up as hopolophobes will pull them down..) You want people to exhibit safe gunhandling? Educate them, one on one. Put some skin in the game.
You have the energy - focus it in ways that can really help. Thinking grand thoughts is nice, but (just as with warfare) no ground is truly taken until there are muddy boots on it.
Are you gonna put yout boots into play, or stand in the rear and shout rude names at those in the field?
wacki
Member
Look I phrased the title wrong. I even edited the original post to excuse the title. I messed up and and admitted it. Most of ideas, especially the video format, are not original. They are being used by many people in many areas of politics. Video is one area of information dissemination that is being very neglected within the firearm community. And with the widespread use of youtube, torrents, and google video there really isn't an excuse for that.
I did a quick search on youtube and I got these pro NRA results:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ_X72e_k9g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqjxh5aTkkI
WHICH WERE MADE BY KIDS!!!!!!!!
and a few parodies:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP0d0KTPZoE
and this was the only professional production that was related to the NRA on youtube (that I found):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhvKYzKwf88
Not exactly the best thing for the NRA.
Video is widely known as one of the most effective means of information dissemination. Many TV shows get higher ratings on youtube than on their traditional venues. Despite the extremely effective means of google video, and youtube this avenue has been completely ignored by the NRA. I mean, even the few videos that the NRA has produced are poorly distributed:
google video search
Has zero hits. Which would make sense since the NRA doesn't have any videos on google video. After about 2 minutes of searching I can't find that video anywhere on the internet. It should not be that hard to find. The fact of the matter is the most pro-gun material on youtube & google video is made by highschoolers and gun shop owners. If that's not proof that the NRA has lots of room for improvement in the RKBA campaign then I don't know what would be.
Well your experience has been different than mine.
Well I didn't bring up the packaging. Other people did and I tried to respond. So don't blame me for wasting energy on packaging.
As for your ideas:
I'm more concerned with RKBA knowledge than safety. But safety is important. And when it comes to safety I'd much rather teach people how to use guns then teach people to run away from them and get somebody qualified to handle the gun. The NRA sells this video for $9.95.
http://materials.nrahq.org/go/products.aspx?cat=EE_vidoes
That is too much. There is no download link, no torrent link, etc. That is not right. The video should be available for free.
See, this is actually a good idea. But one thing I've learned over the years it's that politicians don't really care what is right and what is wrong. They care about what gets them elected. I like this constructive thinking though!
I'll be happy to become a NRA certified firearms instructor. But this one on one training is exactly the close minded thinking I'm trying to get away from. As far as manpower goes, it's high cost and low *quantity* return. The quality of return may be high but the number of people you reach is very low. I introduce about 10 people a year to skeet/trap so I'm already doing this. There are just far more effective ways to campaign IMO.
I won't invest the time to solve them? Can you please explain to me what I'm doing in this thread? Can you please stop trying to insult me. I'm trying to help the firearm community and you keep making personal attacks.
As I said before, Penn & Teller made a good first stab in this arena. There is a lot more room for improvement.
See I strongly disagree with this. This is not the proper time or the place to go into my background but experience has told me that there are powerful mediums that have gone ignored. Maybe my DVD idea was bad. But there is no reason why videos should not be all over google video. I mean the least the NRA could do is try to buy the rights to the Penn & Teller episode on gun control so it can be freely distributed via google video. As of right now it gets taken down every time someone tries to put it up.
I'm willing to put my boots in play. And I did not mean to insult the good members of this forum. But there should be no doubt the RKBA campaign is missing a few weapons in it's inventory. Youtube and google video should make that obvious.
rbernie
Contributing Member
It has been my sorry experience that people that are easily swayed to one side of an argument by a two minute video are just as easily swayed to the other by more of the same. If you want true converts that can be counted on - you've got to make it personal for 'em. That takes time, and there are precious few shortcuts.
In my humble opinion, you can't have a sustainable RKBA-centric mindset without simply having more gun owners. You can find the occasional non-gunnie who 'gets' the notion of firearms as part of our being a 'responsible' society, but by and large the RKBA effort is comprised of folks who own firearms and see restrictions on that ownership as a personal affront.
And I believe that you can't get more gun owners without doing two basic things; making non-gunnies see the value in firearms, and making sure that they get comfortable in the presence of firearms. Programs such as Eddie Eagle and personalized inexpensive CCW instruction do just that.
You can characterize that kind of approach as low-yield, and you'd be right. But that doesn't make it ineffective; the folks that you convert are likely converts for the long haul.
You're fussing with us. What are you doing out in the world? How many times have you written to your elected officials? How many LTE have you had published?
Look - I'm not trying to insult you. I'm trying to point out that bitching here does NOT equate to action. It only equates to bitchin'.
Point well taken. Have you spoken to the NRA or GOA about this, and come up with examples of what you'd like for them to fund? If not, that should be your next step.
SniperStraz
Member
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2006
- Messages
- 871
If people were really interested
they would use the internet to find safety tips and procedures. The sad truth is that they just dont care. They think they know it all. In my opinion and probably all of us on THR a smart gun owner is always learning. But for most people, once they have a gun in their hands they get a little bit of a God-Complex.
they would use the internet to find safety tips and procedures. The sad truth is that they just dont care. They think they know it all. In my opinion and probably all of us on THR a smart gun owner is always learning. But for most people, once they have a gun in their hands they get a little bit of a God-Complex.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Do you have anything to back that up?
If what you say is true, there would be a much more serious problem with firearms accidents than there actually is. In fact, the rate of firearms accidents has dramatically declined over the years and is now so low that firearms accidents are far and away the least frequent category of accidents -- in fact, if it weren't for politics, firearms accidents wouldn't even be categorized any more, just lumped in with "other."
heres a few thoughts for you wikki
How big of a fine or how much jail time should a person receive if they fail to include said CD? That's really what a law is about.
If as an industry, the gun compaines decided they were going to include a CD as you describe, i would applaud that decision.
However, coming from lawmakers, that is entirely different.
Also, as you suggest this being a law, how do you think our gun ignorant or gun paranoid senators and representatives would craft a law? they would make it big and akward, have it be in 62 languages, be 20 hours long, and contain tons and tons of legaleeze, AT BEST, at worst, it would be all that and the antis would include misleading information about exatly how safe or unsafe the gun is.
As others have said, every gun company with a recongnizable name includes a manual that covers the saftey rules. The printed word is still the most effective universal form of communication. (not all people have dvds and computers with cd drives, etc etc. Sometimes it is because they are behind the times, sometimes it is because they are ahead of them, having blue-ray disks rather than dvds, and having a laptop with no cd drive, as they download everything.)
So, of their own free will the manufactureres are doing almost exactly what you ask for, except they are doing it better, as they are providing this information in the most universally accessible option possible.
How big of a fine or how much jail time should a person receive if they fail to include said CD? That's really what a law is about.
If as an industry, the gun compaines decided they were going to include a CD as you describe, i would applaud that decision.
However, coming from lawmakers, that is entirely different.
Also, as you suggest this being a law, how do you think our gun ignorant or gun paranoid senators and representatives would craft a law? they would make it big and akward, have it be in 62 languages, be 20 hours long, and contain tons and tons of legaleeze, AT BEST, at worst, it would be all that and the antis would include misleading information about exatly how safe or unsafe the gun is.
As others have said, every gun company with a recongnizable name includes a manual that covers the saftey rules. The printed word is still the most effective universal form of communication. (not all people have dvds and computers with cd drives, etc etc. Sometimes it is because they are behind the times, sometimes it is because they are ahead of them, having blue-ray disks rather than dvds, and having a laptop with no cd drive, as they download everything.)
So, of their own free will the manufactureres are doing almost exactly what you ask for, except they are doing it better, as they are providing this information in the most universally accessible option possible.
Vern Humphrey
Member
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, let me point out that training (and that includes manuals, CDs and so on) is a solution.
I made a lot of money in the commercial training business, and I used to point out that before you advocate a solution, you must first have a problem. And you ought to be able to address the magnitude of the problem.
After that, you should be able to explain how your solution will make the problem go away -- or at least reduce it.
Now if the problem is too many firearms accidents, the evidence indicates that the rate of firearms accidents is very low and dropping. To say that thicker, more impenetrable manuals or CDs will make it drop faster is something that is difficult to demonstrate.
I made a lot of money in the commercial training business, and I used to point out that before you advocate a solution, you must first have a problem. And you ought to be able to address the magnitude of the problem.
After that, you should be able to explain how your solution will make the problem go away -- or at least reduce it.
Now if the problem is too many firearms accidents, the evidence indicates that the rate of firearms accidents is very low and dropping. To say that thicker, more impenetrable manuals or CDs will make it drop faster is something that is difficult to demonstrate.
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