Some long overdue common sense for firearm owners.

[ceetee]

Heck, my riding lawnmower came with a manual and a cute little VHS tape showing how to level the blades, and how to tell if a hill is too steep to mow on...

I think it's a good idea. It would be a good first step toward changing the connotation of the phrase "gun control". Make it so "gun control" doesn't mean banning guns, it means being able to call your flyers. Depending on the quality of such a DVD, I'd gladly lend it out to friends at work that either own guns, but have never taken any kind of marksmanship course, or friends that have had no experience with guns at all.

I'd shy away from letting the NRA have too much input. The last thing a beginner needs is a rant on 2A issues. Let them stick to the safety and use aspects. I can see a basic format in two parts. First, a generic video that covers safety, and simple handling techniques, applicable for all firearms. Then the manufacturer's video that covers the parts of a specific gun. That half would cover loading an dunloading, fieldstripping, cleaning, and basic adjustments any gun owner should be able to do. As has already been pointed out, one DVD can hold an insane amount of material. A manufacturer like Springfield or Taurus could easily make one DVD that would hold all the videos for all of their respective models.

 

[SoCalShooter]

Gun control is not about the guns its all about control. There is no common sense in gun control.

 

[Molon Labe]

Are you saying we should assume that every person we hand a gun to knows exactly how to handle a gun? Are you saying there is no need to ask them whether or not they know firearm safety when we give them a loaded weapon?

It certainly appears that way.

No. Is that what I said?

I am referring to the perspective of the person receiving the firearm, not the person giving the firearm.

If you're a member of the gun culture, a lot of people are going to be handing you a lot of guns. Are you going to berate every person who hands you a loaded gun, or who doesn't inform you of the gun's condition? I should hope not. Why? Because when someone hands you a gun, any information they give you concerning the condition of the gun should not be trusted. When someone hands you a gun you're supposed to check it yourself.

If you have a ND because the gun that was handed to you was loaded, "But... but... the guy who gave me the gun said it was unloaded!!" is not an excuse you can use. You should have checked it.

So back to the OP... he was upset because the guy handing him the gun didn't tell him the magazine was loaded. Should the guy have told him the magazine was loaded? Certainly - that's what I do when I hand someone a gun. But at the same time, it ultimately doesn't matter, since the person receiving the gun must check the condition of the gun himself. My original point is that the OP should not be upset at the person for omitting the information about the loaded magazine, since it ultimately doesn't matter.

And dude, why the rolly-eyes? I'm an NRA-certified rifle instructor. Got a problem with that?

 

[grimjaw]

NEW YORK, NY, Associated Press - The case of John Q. Smith proceeded today in state court. Mr Smith is sueing Boom Boom Firearms for their failure to provide him with safety education material on video, causing him to shoot himself in the foot. Mr Smith, illiterate, could not read the manual . . . </sarcasm>

There's a saying from some car safety engineers that comes to mind when I read a thread like this. I'm paraphrasing here:

"We can design the safest, most reliable restraint device in the world, and the customer will try to wear it around his neck."

They try to make training easier for us at work regarding the dangers of NUCLEAR WASTE. You know what? I still don't want to watch them. I work near the waste cleanup site, but so do the people at the gas station 100 yards away and they don't get the training.

I'm sure there are some gun owners that don't own computers and have no use for a CD/DVD.

I don't own a television, and have no use for a VHS tape.

I don't have a problem with a manufacturer that does what you suggest in your OP: include some kind of safety training education with their product. I don't want to pay extra for it, though. I don't want it to be mandated by legislation. Will you require that the CD/DVD go with the firearm when it's sold? What happens when optical disks are obsolete? Will the firearm have to be melted down?

It doesn't matter what you devise, the human race will ingeniously come up with another way to be stupid.

wacki, what's really bugging you? I've seen you advocate some kind of restriction or limitation on ownership in several threads now. You've all but called the forum members Luddites because they don't agree with you. Why do you care if some of us don't agree? If you think it's a good idea, do it! Don't wait for the horse to come drink, and don't think that insulting the horse will do anything other than confuse the horse and make one resemble something other than his front end.

By the way, McDonald's coffee? It's hot. I know because it says so at the drive through window.

jm

 

[wacki]

No. Is that what I said?

explicitly no. Implicitly? Well what else could "so what?" mean?. The gun was in a restaurant so I wasn't expecting it to be ready to go.

If you're a member of the gun culture, a lot of people are going to be handing you a lot of guns.

True. I never said otherwise.

If you're a member of the gun culture, a lot of people are going to be handing you a lot of guns. Are you going to berate every person who hands you a loaded gun, or who doesn't inform you of the gun’s condition? I should hope not. Why? Because when someone hands you a gun, any information they give you concerning the condition of the gun should not be trusted. When someone hands you a gun you're supposed to check it yourself.

If you have a ND because the gun that was handed to you was loaded, "The guy who gave me the gun said it was unloaded!!" is not an excuse you can use. You should have checked it.

And the fault is back on me. We are not talking about me. I know how to handle guns. We are talking about him. I would think it would be common sense to make sure the person I hand a gun knows how to handle it. I would not hand my mom (who has never shot a weapon) or a stranger a loaded gun without making sure they knew how to handle it.

And dude, why the rolly-eyes? I'm an NRA-certified rifle instructor. Got a problem with that?

Well I would certainly hope that any safety instructor, NRA or otherwise, knows the importance of making sure the person one hands a loaded weapon to knows how to properly handle it. It would appear that is not the case.

 

[Green Lantern]

Shoot, Molon Labe beat me to it:

Heck last week somebody I barely knew handed me a gun without informing me that the magazine was full.

I was always taught that a gun is always loaded, until you verify that it is not...

 

[wacki]

wacki, what's really bugging you? I've seen you advocate some kind of restriction or limitation on ownership in several threads now.

Several threads? How about just the convicted-violent-rapists/murders thread. That is the only thread I've discussed any kind of restrictions on this forum. And even with those people I said I was open to reinstating firearm rights under certain conditions. You are painting me into a corner in which I don't belong. I think all states should have concealed carry, suppressors, high-cap mags, etc.

I don't want it to be mandated by legislation.

Neither do I. I am not advocating a law here. Just advocating a way to get poorly organized information out to the masses. This isn't just about safety. And yes information is all freely available but it really is poorly organized.

It doesn't matter what you devise, the human race will ingeniously come up with another way to be stupid.

Again, you can't help the stupid. I don't care about the stupid. But you can make information easier to access and avoid all sorts of problems. And to be honest not very many people know about gunfacts.info.

 

[f4t9r]

The rules are in every manual and dealers here go over gun safety and operation of firearm before you leave the shop. Thats good enough for me !!!!
Open the case of some manufactures and the safety rules are staring you in the face one more time. You can not take everything someone says personal because it does not agree with your point of view. People give thier thoughts and ideas here and one does not have to quote and respond to everything said while trying to push thier idea down our throats.
A CD is a good idea , leave it at that.

 

[TCB in TN]

A little thing like personal responsibility, ring a bell. We need less reliance "safety manuals" and more reliance on our selves. I have nothing against safety information being included voluntarily by the mfg, but the last thing we need is more mandates for anything related to firearms.:banghead:

 

[hqmhqm]

I think a video DVD is a good idea. I bought a new kind of harness for our dog, and it came with an instructional video. I would not have known how to use it very well without a video demonstration.

Some people get information from a printed manual, but others get more information from a movie.

I dislike a number of the know-it-all responses in this thread where everyone assumes they are the worlds expert in all things firearms related, the reincarnation of John Moses Browning himself. Everyone's a Monday morning quarterback when some ND incident is reported.

Yet, everyone of us can stand to learn some more about their firearms. And if you learn about it in several different ways, you really understand it. If you have just one way of understanding the system, you don't really understand it. That is where I think so many of the ND issues come from.

 

[hso]

Not everyone has a computer or DVD player.

Every new gun I've bought had a manual and the first several pages are dedicated to safe gun handling.

I'll concede that morons that won't read a manual might watch a DVD.

 

[Justin]

I have no problem with the inclusion of a DVD or multimedia disk with a new firearm. Some companies already do. Which, to my mind, hardly makes the idea "overdue."

Just don't expect everyone to watch it. After all, the US is the most technologically advanced nation to ever exist, with information on nearly any topic retrievable in under a second, yet there are still plenty of ignorant people out there.

As for handing someone a weapon, the polite thing to do is to remove the magazine and lock the action open before handing it to them.

If you don't do this, start. If someone hands you a weapon without doing it, gently point out that making the weapon safe is the courteous thing to do.

 

[BullfrogKen]

wacki, regardless of the what anyone thinks of the political arm of the NRA, they have been at the forefront of disseminating safe gun handling to the public for longer than you have been alive. We can't hold someone's hand. I'm glad you've come to the realization that this is necessary, but lots of folks have worked their entire lives doing this for others, volunteering time, given of personal income, etc. to do this.

wacki said: Face the facts. A lot of gun owners don't know proper gun safety. And almost all gun owners don't understand how badly the gun control advocates skew the statistics. I certainly didn't before I came here. It's time to fix that.

Ok, so, get involved. Go get NRA certified and join the ranks of teaching safe gun handling to others.


Personally, I don't really like being preached to by a recent entrant to guns about how we somehow failed you. This information is out there. Resources to help you find places and resources to learn safe gun handling are not hard to find at all.

Let's come down off that podium for a minute. If you don't know how to safely handle a gun, and now realize it, what have you done about it? Have you, yourself, signed up for a safety class? Are you supporting those guys, that very often offer these classes for a nominal fee, or even free, by taking one of those classes yourself?

wacki said: I read a lot about gun statistics and there is a lot of really good information that simply isn't organized and disseminated very well. Way too many people in this forum want it to stay that way.

We want to keep people uneducated and ignorant? Where is this coming from? Chill out a little. This isn't the way to sway folks and make friends.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

Wow.

So those of you ripping on wacki's idea of providing pro-RKBA information and safety training in a DVD format along with guns REALLY think that we don't need to work on more PR and better communications to promote RKBA?

A few websites and training manuals are all we need to fight the anti-gun juggernaut? HA!

We NEED ideas like this. What do you gain by shooting him down?

He's not advocating MANDATORY training, and I'm sure he realizes that 80%+ will not even open the CD, but the 20%- that DO will get a focused, pro-RKBA, pro-gun-safety message.

What in the heck is wrong with that?

 

[protolith]

Legislate This...

I would support legislation that REQUIRES that the 4 rules be taught to ALL grade school children.

As for other "Common Sense" bits of knowledge, if you don't know them, They aren't common sense... If more of the energy that is spent on gun control in the name of safety is spent on proper education, then fewer people will have NDs for lack of understanding safe carry practices or the ability to evaluate a safe holster.

"The gun was in a restaurant so I wasn't expecting it to be ready to go."

I can think of far more reasons to have a loaded gun in a restaurant than an empty one.

 

[wacki]

Let's come down off that podium for a minute. If you don't know how to safely handle a gun, and now realize it, what have you done about it?

I had some gun training through ROTC and at the local skeet/trap club. I'm confident with rifles but I'll admit when I read stories about mexican carry I was a bit shocked. I get a lot more out of reading other peoples real life mistakes than any class I took. If someone re-enacted the 30 or so most common gun mistakes I would think that would be an excellent safety video. Especially if they made sure the viewers understood these accidents really happened. Has anything like that ever been made? I certainly haven't heard of it.

We want to keep people uneducated and ignorant? Where is this coming from? Chill out a little. This isn't the way to sway folks and make friends.

You certainly aren't like that. I don't mean to step on everyones toes but there are no statistical pamphlets being handed out at my local gun club. There are no NRA fact sheets. Nobody there has heard of gunfacts.info. And when I post questions on this forum trying to figure out answers to arguments made by anti's about half the responses I get are:

"you can't reason with an anti"
"you can't teach common sense to morons"
and
"anti's are too scared to protect themselves"

and that seems like such a close minded point of view. But behavior like that makes me go "gee I wonder why" when people vote to ban guns in a certain district. And when the town council shuts down the sporting clay section of our local club I think "gee I wonder why". I mean no disrespect for those that have been fighting to defend the 2A for a very long time. I just think there are some potentially very powerful means of information dissemination that have never been explored before.

Eh... I have to read a paper and time is short. I'm done for the night.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Thanks for advocating gun control.

Did you understand anything I said? Apparently not. This is not a law. Information is on our side and we are missing a very effective method of spreading information to the right people.

Why doesn't anyone push the most common sense form gun control of all? I mean I see no reason why some gun safety CD shouldn't be attached to each firearm sold.

First of all, firearm makers voluntarily provided locks on pistols before the anti-gunners made it law. Despite the virtually 100% universal providing of gun locks with pistols, the anti's wanted it made LAW.


Second, providing something to someone doesn't mean squat. The DVD will go in the garbage the same way the instruction manual did. The same instruction manual that has safety information like clean the bore out so it doesn't kaboom. FACT is, someone negligent enough to cause such accidents is not the kind of person who will gain anything from a DVD, as there are already dozens of ways in which safety information is practically shoved down their throats. Safety information is engraved and stamped into firearms!!!

Third, someone has to foot the bill. I don't feel like paying more because someone else is an idiot. Now, a DVD doesn't cost much....but the slippery slope does apply, and the anti's dream is to make gun ownership cost prohibitive or to place standards (such as testing/licensing) in the way.

And for every accident we avoid, that just makes us look that much better.

The above quote is the most critical aspect of this entire thread, and why I am fundamentally against such an idea, far more so than the reasons I listed above.


I'm of the school of thought that the RKBA is my God given right. I don't give a damn how much death, destruction, ill, accidents, suffering or misuse is caused as a result of irresponsible people mishandling or abusing firearms. This will never, ever, ever be a justification or a reason for limiting or taking away my RKBA.


You may think so, and our society is biased against guns and the RKBA and that's what truly happens in practice, but I refuse to accept that. If I accept that, I'm playing their game. I'm going to change the way this country thinks by changing the way I think, and stop having an illogical bias toward the RKBA.


No one ever gets on TV or in the media and says "religion should be banned because of people like Jim Jones"....or "religion should be licensed or registered or approved prior to exercise thereof due to people like Jim Jones"....


No one says to ban free speech because someone was preaching some Aryan nation propaganda which results in the twisting of minds and results in the violent action against minorities. Guns didn't kill the Jews in the 1940's...an IDEA did. Speech was the vehicle by which ideas made it possible for 6 million people to be exterminated. No one advocates the banning of such language, speech or ideas in our country today. How's that for a logical comparison?


Why should the Second Amendment be any different? Why should I give a damn what someone thinks of "us"...whomever this "us" is? There is no "us" as in gunowners. There are only Americans with rights, and those who hate liberty.


The fundamental problem is that a bias against guns exists. All the factoids and clever slogans will not save us. The key is in getting people to understand that it is a fundamental human right, and rights are not negotiable. Rights are not subject to changes in weather. Punitive actions against my rights due to the abuse of others is simply NOT ACCEPTABLE in a free society.

Every day millions of Americans drive on the highways. Every day there are vehicular crimes, many of which results in deaths. Deaths that far outnumber firearm violence. Americans are willing to accept this death and maiming of tens of thousands every year as the "price of freedom"....but not so with firearms. Americans deal with neo-nazi trash, KKK, black panthers, eco-terrorists, NAMBLA and other scum and respect their freedom of speech, no matter how destructive, as "the price of freedom"....Well, the idiots who shoot themselves while trying to clean a gun - they are the "price of freedom"...


You people, time and time again here on THR are losing the RKBA debate by accepting the terms of the debate which the anti's frame from the start. You can call my views radical or not practical in appealing to the "middle"...but you'll never, ever win by conceding to the core beliefs of the anti's, the anti's who trap you with their national dialogs on the RKBA. These are the traps the antis set all the time.


Why do people fear making such TRUE and strong arguments for the RKBA? Do they fear that they will be viewed as irrational? LMAO! The liberal's views were viewed as irrational and insane years ago, but through persistence, they got what they wanted in society. If my views shock some moderates- GOOD. At least I got their attention. At least I put the seed of a different view in their mind. That's far better than the current mode of thinking which is the anti-gunners wanting to control guns, and the pro-gunners who agree on controlling guns less. What's the lowest common denominator? Each still results in gun control.


Look at Oleg's posters. He is the genius here. His vision for arguing the RKBA has been lost on THR. His posters are direct and strong. They make non-PC, in your face statements intended to provoke thought and questions. That is the proper response. He doesn't hide behind compromising for lesser gun-control. He doesn't have this idiotic, pro-state, pro-authority view of guns which many on THR do. It truly saddens me to see so many people (prominent members) proclaim themselves fighters for the RKBA on THR, yet they are espousing the very ideology of gun control. (not talking about you Wacki).


Sorry for going off on such a tangent. This isn't all related to some firearm safety DVD idea - but to a general set of ideas that are self-defeating to our cause.

 

[wacki]

Wow.

So those of you ripping on wacki's idea of providing pro-RKBA information and safety training in a DVD format along with guns REALLY think that we don't need to work on more PR and better communications to promote RKBA?

A few websites and training manuals are all we need to fight the anti-gun juggernaut? HA!

Exactly. Then again I'm sure all those gun owners in Cook County Chicago are happy with the performance of those websites.

 

[BullfrogKen]

OK. I have no idea what you are advocating at this point. What do you want here?

Responses and quips to anti-gun rhetoric?
Some sort of sensationalist video like that old driver's ed show "Blood in the Streets"?
A different medium for the typical gun owner's safety manual nearly every manufacturer has given out for free for at least a decade?
Some kind of concealed carry primer?


I don't get it. Your criticisms and wish lists are all over the place. Why is it the responsibility of your local gun club to provide you statistical pamphlets? Statistical pamphlets on what? It frankly sounds like you're calling for a video that dramatizes the injuries and deaths of ignorant gun handlers to persuade folks that its a good idea to not handle guns irresponsibly. That's pretty tasteless.


Have you even taken the opportunity to contact the NRA to ask about what they have, that anyone can get for free, to teach you about safe gun handling? No NRA fact sheets? Seriously . . . You have got to be kidding.


This rhetorict is starting to feel like sticking an ice cube on a newly drilled root canal.


Edit>>> I just took the opportunity to go back and thoroughly read everything said here, because some things I saw just weren't making sense and adding up.


wacki, Why are you and your friend passing around a loaded gun in a restaurant?

wacki said: And the fault is back on me. We are not talking about me. I know how to handle guns. We are talking about him. I would think it would be common sense to make sure the person I hand a gun knows how to handle it. I would not hand my mom (who has never shot a weapon) or a stranger a loaded gun without making sure they knew how to handle it.

Quote:
And dude, why the rolly-eyes? I'm an NRA-certified rifle instructor. Got a problem with that?

wacki said: Well I would certainly hope that any safety instructor, NRA or otherwise, knows the importance of making sure the person one hands a loaded weapon to knows how to properly handle it. It would appear that is not the case.

Its not about fault. Its about you taking ownership, being in charge of your own safety. Many of us who have learned to handle guns safely consider it a breech of etiquette to give someone a gun without opening the action and checking to ensure its unloaded, and we hand them back the same way. Its tandamount to taking a piss and immediately afterwards extending your outstretched palm to shake the fellow's hand standing at the urinal next to you.

Why would you even entertain the thought of handing someone a loaded gun? It doesn't matter if the recepient knows how to handle it. When I give a handgun to my pistolsmith, I know Jim knows how to handle it, but I wouldn't dream of offering it to him loaded, let alone unopened and cleared.


There's no nice way to say it, but you need to hear it. I suggest you aren't as competent and safe a gun handler as you believe yourself to be. Maybe its a lack of clear communication over the internet, but the way you've discussed this doesn't come across like you've learned how to safely pass a gun to another. OK. Yes. I admit I'm a little peeved at the condescention here. And I'm not sure you're in a position to be reprimanding an NRA certified instructor.

 

[Spot77]

I applaud the effort to "think outside of the box" with regards to having more information available to the average person. Which seems to be your intent judging by:

No, what it comes down to is what the average person will do. And the average person will not spend countless hours on THR learning about guns. Make the information cheap. Make it concise. And make it easy to access. Anything less is not the wisest of decisions IMO.

Lots of pros and cons about the idea. I think manufacturers could certainly stand to find innovative ways to reach fence sitters and people who aren't enthusiasts like us here at THR.

Maryland law makes first time handgun purchasers watch a 15 minutes video before buying the gun. It was pretty hokey, but it did emphasize the importance of knowing MD's self defense laws. The video only has to be watched once, for the purchase of one's first handgun. No need to watch it for subsequent purchases.

Perhaps the title of the thread should have read something like, "some long overdue marketing technique to make gun ownership and the 2nd Amendment more palatable to the masses."

 

[GW]

Well, here in the great state of California, to buy a new handgun you must have the Handgun safety card (I forget the actual name BFSC or something) At any rate, to get the cardyou must pass a written gun safety test.
THEN when you buy the handgun a "Safety instructor" must demonstrate to you how to check to see if its loaded and how to unload it yourself and then you must demonstrate that you can indeed safely unload the handgun. (One time, I had to show the instructor how to unload the 1911 I was buying. He left the thumb safety on )
To be honest, though I find it inconvenient for myself. I think this is a worthwhile process, both the written test and the demonstration. At least the buyer will have had to know the basics of gun safety at some point in order to pass the test and the physical demonstration of how to safely unload the pistol would be very useful to the novice gun buyer. By making this demo mandatory, it bypasses the problem of the buyer not wanting to look stupid by asking how to load/unload the handgun or worse, not even knowing to ask.
I find that I can support these "laws". Probably the only gun laws in this state that I can support

 

[DWARREN123]

Actually a safety cd with information on some of the other firearms the company makes would be a nice idea.

 

[Soybomb]

You know the number of actual gun accidents a year is so small I just don't see it as being that pressing of a need. Some people are going to do stupid things no matter what. Guns already come with "GUNS ARE DANGEROUS" and the rules all through the manuals. Beyond that its just common sense of what happens when you point a gun at something and pull the trigger. I think there comes a certain point at which you need to take responsibility for your actions. My bottle of scotch doesn't come with a dvd warning me of what might happen if I drive a forklift or play with a chainsaw while using it. Cars don't come with a how to drive computer cd course in the trunk. I'm not sure you're actually going to get statistically a much lower number no matter what you try.

Its a noble thought but I think we're better served by reminding people how few are killed each year by gun accidents and taking new people shooting and teaching them how to handle firearms safely.

 

[GW]

Then again, if the CD had topless women shooting the pistol/OU/Ruger #1 on full auto while explaining the principles of safety, then I for one, would promise to watch it at least once a week.

 

[griz]

Hello Wacki,
Like BFKen, I'm having a hard time distilling your suggestions down to get your main point. But as far as the safety video, I think it comes down to your comment: "nobody reads the instruction anyway". That would be true with a safety video too. If you really want to prevent accidents, make a short TV commercial, 15 or 20 seconds, that tells people to treat guns as if they are loaded. People may not read the directions or watch safety videos, but for some reason really people pay attention when they see something on TV.