Some observations while shooting a trio of John Brownings “fighting pistols” today.

[Riomouse911]

With the 2-14 patent date of the 1911 pistol just passed, I took a couple of 1911’s (Springfield Loaded 5” .45 and a Kimber 5” Stainless Target II 9mm) and a Springfield SA-35 Hi Power clone to the range for a bit. (I know they weren’t pure 1911’s, and the Hi Power wasn’t all his work, but this is as close as I can get.) I had the A side of the range to myself today, several others were banging away on the B side.

I noticed a few things about these guns that was kind of fun to compare.

The 1911 fits my hand well, but the SA-35 feels like a glove. The wider grip shape and thin wood panels combined to make this pistol feel like Goldilocks’ favored bed for me.

The SA-35 jumped a lot when recoiling. The gun is light at the front, which makes handling nice but the gun bucks in my hands more than either of the 1911’s did. I hadn’t really noticed this difference until today after shooting a bunch of shots back to back.

The indoor range I frequent is a tad dark, making black sights-on-black targets, challenging, to be kind. I had a bit of trouble discerning the sights on the Loaded .45. They are tritium, but the vials were not able to glow with the ambient light. They are also rather thin in profile so the front gets lost easy. In these conditions the gun was a challenge to keep aimed where I needed to, as the black colored, reduced B-29 silhouette looked like a big blob when aiming at 10 yds. The 1911 points well for me though, so finding the middle made it work for 20 shots.





The SA-35 has a nice white dot front, but the rear sight is all black and also blended into the target. This, combined with the increased muzzle flip, slowed down recoil recovery and didn’t help my follow up shots. (I couldn’t use a timer to see how much, the many other shooters in the building would drive a shot timer nuts.)

I noticed the first time I shot this gun that my right thumb knuckle can start to push up the safety lever and hinder firing. It happened again when shooting today, so this is one grip alteration that I have to make to keep the gun running.

I bought three nickel plated 13-round Mec Gar magazines because the SA OEM 15 rounders were sold out everywhere I shop. All three Mec Gar mags ran perfectly with zero hiccups.

Another thing I noticed about my SA-35 is a total lack of a tactile or audible trigger reset. I haven’t shot a Hi Power or clone in many, many years so I can’t recall if the one I had issued to me back in the 1990’s had much of a reset (Nor have I fired another SA-35 to see if this is the norm). This was a bit confusing at first, as I am so used to a reset on my other pistols giving me a starting point for follow ups, but I had to get used to it so away I went. The 20 were not as well centered as with the .45, but at least I didn’t miss any.



The Kimber has a F-O front sight and a big flat rear blade that stood out much more than the others. This was also the first time shooting with the G-10 grip panels I put on last week. It was a slightly different feel than the OEM rubber panels, but it didn’t seem to help nor hinder me in any way. The lighter 9mm recoil should have made my shooting with this gun better than with the .45, but I got jumpy by the time I got to shoot this gun and booted several shots of the 20 low/right. (Like with the SA-35, they were some of those “I knew it was off when I fired it” type goofs .) These things are what keep me humbled when I sign up and try to shoot against really good shooters.



(I also bought a couple of CZ’s along, a 9mm Shadow 2 and 97B .45, but this is a JMB offspring thread .)

For those with Hi Powers, SA-35’s or FEG/Girsan/Tisas type HP clones I ask two things; does your gun have any type of trigger reset you can hear/feel? (If not, does it affect your shooting rhythm?)

And second, does your usual pistol grip style ever impinge on the safety? (I am used to a thumbs-forward grip with everything else, but with this gun I have to hold with a firm thumbs down.)

Stay safe.

 

[Old Dog]

My opinion only, but I feel as though indoor ranges just plain suck for trying to do serious evaluations of handguns. Lighting is usually off, and the ventilation is typically awful. The lighting aspect, though, is what makes shooting tougher, unless you've got some seriously high-visibility sights.

My only BHP was a MkIII, which at the time was a "grail gun" for me. Sadly, it was not a transformative experience when I first shot the pistol, and it never grew on me.

The SA trigger was so different than a 1911's, I never mastered it (strangely,fast-forwarding to 2021,the flat triggers on SIG's 320s and 365s seemed familiar and I easily got used to them). Anyway, I sold my Hi Power off with no regrets; although it fit my hand and pointed well for me, the trigger was disappointing (to say the least) and the accuracy was unimpressive.

Of course, I'll still purchase a SA-35 the first time I see one in the wild...Only because I've evolved into a collector and am greedy now.

Maybe it's just me, but I can't get used to 1911s in 9mm. I've been shooting 1911s since the '70s and am so used to the recoil of .45 ACP, it's plain weird shooting one in 9mm.

I don't have a grip issue with 1911s, as I ride the safety with both thumbs forward. When shooting SIG P-series pistols though, with the same thumb positions, I tend to keep the slide-stop depressed which means my slide won't lock back on an empty mag (especially with the "enhanced" grips that have the big bulge on the left grip panel).

 

[Tallball]

I wasn't a 1911 fan until I started shooting them.

Never been amazed with the BHP. I've had a Hungarian clone since the late 80's. It's been reliable through a zillion rounds, which is great, and it's about as accurate as most service pistols. The trigger is meh. It's an okay pistol. Shrug. Sorry, I don't even remember the trigger reset. Haven't shot it in a while. Seem to always shoot my 9mm 1911 or CZ75 instead.

 

[Waveski]

I am a strong proponent of the HP. It points as/more naturally than any other pistol in my experience.
I have not been conscious of the reset; I will check that out today and report back.

I wonder if those SA 35 grips would fit an original High Power?

 

[Nature Boy]

I wonder if those SA 35 grips would fit an original High Power?

My assumption would be yes since the SA-35 is a clone of the original design

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

Both designs went through multiple pre-production iterations, and their longevity is confirmation of what they got right. They haven't remained in production this long just for nostalgia's sake.

 

[WisBorn]

Thanks @Riomouse911 now you have me wanting a 1911 again! The enablers on THR sure cost me a lot of $$$$

Nice review!
Stay Safe!!!

 

[bannockburn]

Riomouse911

For those with Hi Powers, SA-35’s or FEG/Girsan/Tisas type HP clones I ask two things; does your gun have any type of trigger reset you can hear/feel? (If not, does it affect your shooting rhythm?)

None that I have ever noticed. My Hi-Power Mk. II actually has the best trigger of any other Hi-Power I have tried, right out of the box! And no, it doesn't affect my shooting rhythm not having any sort of tangible trigger reset.

And second, does your usual pistol grip style ever impinge on the safety? (I am used to a thumbs-forward grip with everything else, but with this gun I have to hold with a firm thumbs down.)

Again, no, not really. I have small hands and typically I hold my thumbs down anyways. I pretty much use the same grip I have when shooting 1911s.



Forgot to mention I thoroughly enjoyed your salute to John M. Browning!

 

[JR24]

I agree on most of your observations. I no longer have a BHP but I had a Mk 3 for a number of years.

Yes it felt wonderful in my hand, no my grip never impinged on the safety (I have a high grip and thumbs forward), no the reset wasn’t tactile at all. It was annoying until I stopped “riding the reset” while shooting overall.

Oh, and I agree, recoil is surprisingly snappy for a 9mm that’s quite heavy. It’s even more shocking when shot next to a 9mm aluminum 1911 or EDC X9.

I didn’t like the trigger at all, with or without mag safety, but my #1 issue was slide bite with my high grip. It was natural and I just couldn’t train my hands away from it, despite carrying the gun for a few years, and I still have a small scar in the web of my hand from it.

I don’t miss it, but I do see the … Tsias maybe? option has an extended beavertail, which is smart.

 

[CDW4ME]

The SA-35 jumped a lot when recoiling. The gun is light at the front, which makes handling nice but the gun bucks in my hands more than either of the 1911’s did. I hadn’t really noticed this difference until today after shooting a bunch of shots back to back.

Interesting; I would have expected the SA-35 to have less felt recoil.

 

[Mizar]

The SA-35 jumped a lot when recoiling. The gun is light at the front, which makes handling nice but the gun bucks in my hands more than either of the 1911’s did. I hadn’t really noticed this difference until today after shooting a bunch of shots back to back.

Find yourself an older style firing pin retaining plate with the smaller radius at the bottom - you will be pleasantly surprised. Also, if Springfield is using the later stock mainspring weight (32#) you can then put a 26# one with no worries - it will lighten the trigger pull a bit and somewhat lower the recoil jump.

Here's what it looks like (pic taken from ebay):

 

[Rock185]

Rio, I can hear and feel the trigger reset on the SA-35 and FN guns in a quiet environment. But at the range, with ear protection on, not so much. I'm so used to Hi Powers that I don't really think much about trigger reset at the range. I did the 250 class at Gunsite years ago with a Hi Power, later the 499 class with a Colt Government. Chuck Taylor and Clint Smith taught thumb on top of the safety with 1911s and Hi Powers. That's the way I've shot 1911s and Hi Powers since...

BTW, I've had 3 of the Kimber stainless target 9mms over the years. All shared the common trait of being 100% reliable from Day-1, no matter what weight or bullet shape ammunition I used. I should have kept at least one of those...

 

[Riomouse911]

Find yourself an older style firing pin retaining plate with the smaller radius at the bottom - you will be pleasantly surprised. Also, if Springfield is using the later stock mainspring weight (32#) you can then put a 26# one with no worries - it will lighten the trigger pull a bit and somewhat lower the recoil jump.

Here's what it looks like (pic taken from ebay):

View attachment 1134057

Thanks for the tip. What does the firing pin retaining plate do to change the recoil? Is it like the recoil spring buffer that sits in my Shadow 2?

Stay safe.

 

[Mizar]

Hi-Powers by design does not have a tactile trigger reset, say like a 1911 type pistol - you must learn to release the trigger fully, much like shooting a revolver in DA. Maybe in competition it would matter for the speed of the follow up shots, but it's not important "in the real world". You can bend down a little bit the rear (straight) leg of the trigger spring to put more force on the trigger lever, thus increasing the feeling of it resetting, but it's not really worth it. And you have to fully disassemble the trigger mechanism. As for the grip - I shoot Hi Powers with thumb down, resting on the safety - I'm used to that as a Mk.III Hi Power is my primary CCW and I shoot every pistol with frame mounted safety like that.

What does the firing pin retaining plate do to change the recoil? Is it like the recoil spring buffer that sits in my Shadow 2?

It's not like a recoil buffer - the smaller radius retaining plate pushes on the hammer at a slightly lower point and increases the resistance by it at the beginning of the recoil cycle (when the barrel starts to unlock). This helps to tame down the jump as it changes the unlock timing a little bit - the pistol starts to recoil flatter. Some shooters report that the horizontal recoil increases slightly, but this is of no real concern with 9mm Luger out of a service sized all steel pistol. And it makes racking the slide a little bit harder, but again - not a big deal. Google "1911 small radius firing pin stop" - there are numerous threads about it and the principle in both pistols is exactly the same. BTW, on a 1911 it's a "firing pin stop" and on a Hi-Power is a "firing pin retaining plate", but it's the same part. The only problem is that there are really no small radius aftermarket firing pin retaining plates for Hi Power (at least to my knowledge), so one must look for an older original one. Sadly, I don't remember when they changed that part from smaller to bigger radius - maybe when they changed the mainspring from 26# to 32# sometime in the 80's, or earlier (50's, 60's...)? The good part is, that older FN/Browning retaining plates are of excellent quality, despite being rougher in appearance sometimes.

 

[WVRJ]

My SA-35 doesn't have much of a reset feel either.Nature of the beast I suppose.But I like the grip size and shape a lot.It's a little lighter out front the way it feels to me than the 1911,but I think it gives the 35 a quicker pointing,more lively feel.

 

[sevt_chevelle]

So I have a Mark 3 that was worked over by MK3 firearms, has a C&S type 2 hammer and sear and reprofiled trigger.

It's a very nice trigger, but has zero reset, even talking with MK3 on the phone, a HP will never have that modern tactical reset.

 

[Waveski]

For those with Hi Powers, SA-35’s or FEG/Girsan/Tisas type HP clones I ask two things; does your gun have any type of trigger reset you can hear/feel? (If not, does it affect your shooting rhythm?)

And second, does your usual pistol grip style ever impinge on the safety? (I am used to a thumbs-forward grip with everything else, but with this gun I have to hold with a firm thumbs down.)

Just came up from The Cave.
My Israeli surplus HP does not have a detectable trigger reset. That said - I should point out that I never gave that characteristic a moment's thought until the question was asked. The reset of that pistol has never been a factor in my shooting rhythm.

Here's how it works for me :
I am very sensitive to how easily a handgun points. (I tend to be more accurate with revolvers than autoloaders ... I believe that is because a good revolver points so well.) For me the High Power points very easily , naturally you might say. With that gun resting comfortably in my hand I tend the see the target and get a feeling of "I got this!" I automatically sight right down the top of that beautifully contoured slide. When that happens I just relax and shoot , usually with very good results. Ergonomics and slide shape are in play - to my advantage.
By contrast , if I have a Glock in my hand , with it's flat topped blocky slide , that sense of natural pointing is absent. In that situation I have to focus on the sights , my grip , trigger feel - all the components of discharging a round. The results are never satisfactory.

In short - when shooting my High Power I am unaware of trigger reset , grip (thumbs forward) , all that stuff. It all comes naturally.

Ever try to think your way through a golf swing?

 

[Riomouse911]

Just came up from The Cave.
My Israeli surplus HP does not have a detectable trigger reset. That said - I should point out that I never gave that characteristic a moment's thought until the question was asked. The reset of that pistol has never been a factor in my shooting rhythm.

Here's how it works for me :
I am very sensitive to how easily a handgun points. (I tend to be more accurate with revolvers than autoloaders ... I believe that is because a good revolver points so well.) For me the High Power points very easily , naturally you might say. With that gun resting comfortably in my hand I tend the see the target and get a feeling of "I got this!" I automatically sight right down the top of that beautifully contoured slide. When that happens I just relax and shoot , usually with very good results. Ergonomics and slide shape are in play - to my advantage.
By contrast , if I have a Glock in my hand , with it's flat topped blocky slide , that sense of natural pointing is absent. In that situation I have to focus on the sights , my grip , trigger feel - all the components of discharging a round. The results are never satisfactory.

In short - when shooting my High Power I am unaware of trigger reset , grip , all that stuff. It all comes naturally.

Ever try to think your way through a golf swing?

I gave up golf many years ago, too many kidlet’s at home and not enough time to go. (I do have a set of Ping Eye 2’s though, my favorite irons.)

To me the reset is part of my follow through when deliberately shooting autos (and the same with revolvers shooting DA.) Bringing the gun back from recoil, centering the sights as the trigger resets, restarting my next trigger pull etc. etc. I noticed it missing on the SA gun and didn’t know if that was part of the design or was just lacking in this gun.

And yes, the Hi Power shape (at least this SA-35) is fantastic in the hands for natural pointing. The 9mm Glock is an ok natural pointer for me, probably because I have fired them so much over the past 17 years since I was first issued one, but I fully agree the Glock 19-17-34 is not as nice in my hands as the HP or 1911 shape is.

Stay safe.

 

[Charlie98]

I noticed the first time I shot this gun that my right thumb knuckle can start to push up the safety lever and hinder firing.

And second, does your usual pistol grip style ever impinge on the safety? (I am used to a thumbs-forward grip with everything else, but with this gun I have to hold with a firm thumbs down.)

I taught myself to shoot thumb-over-safety after I had my Springfield for a while... the larger safety ledge had me thumb-knuckling it on. Shooting TOS feels a lot better now that I'm used to it. Word of warning... don't try to transition to a DA/Decocker like an HK and shoot TOS... just saying.

For many years, I said the only 9mm I'd ever own was a BHP. I did own one, it was an extremely poorly assembled Portuguese Browning, and while I liked it, it was a piece of junk. I wound up giving it away to a good friend... he sold all his guns when he got married (...to be 'responsible' is what he said...) and was recently going through a mid-life (mid-marriage) crisis. Anyway... the BHP fits my hand just about as good as anything else I've ever shot, including the 1911 or even my Kahrs. One of the new BHP's is on the list, for sure.

Rio, I feel for you with the poor indoor range lighting, the black target, and the black sights. Although they are more expensive, I've gone to the pink or orange body targets because of this... it can make the difference, and particularly if you are trying to test a load for accuracy.

 

[JTQ]

To me the reset is part of my follow through when deliberately shooting autos...

The 9mm Glock is an ok natural pointer for me, probably because I have fired them so much over the past 17 years since I was first issued one, ...

When somebody mentions the significance of trigger reset, my first guess is they are primarily Glock shooters.

I never noticed the reset on a pistol until I got on gun forums and started reading posts from what were most likely Glock shooters who focus on the reset.

Here is a video showing Bill Wilson, of Wilson Combat shooting. Note at about the 1:40 mark where his trigger finger goes.

 

[JTQ]

To me the reset is part of my follow through when deliberately shooting autos (and the same with revolvers shooting DA.) Bringing the gun back from recoil, centering the sights as the trigger resets, restarting my next trigger pull etc. etc.

 

[JTQ]

And second, does your usual pistol grip style ever impinge on the safety? (I am used to a thumbs-forward grip with everything else, but with this gun I have to hold with a firm thumbs down.)

Stay safe.

I can't speak for the Hi-Power, but with a 1911, most folks teach riding the thumb safety, so knocking the safety on wouldn't be an issue. I don't know if the Hi-Power safety will allow that, but I assume it would.

Here are two 1911 specific videos I often share to illustrate the grip and working the thumb safety.

The first is the late Ed Head of Gunsite in a GunTalkTV video. Early in the video, he shows the draw stroke and beginning at about the :40 mark, he shows when he gets on the thumb safety.



Here is Doug Koenig demonstrating how to grip a 1911. At about the :50 mark, he shows where he puts his right hand thumb.

 

[Charlie98]

I don't know if the Hi-Power safety will allow that, but I assume it would.

The BHP safety is tiny... so, no TOS. I don't really know if anyone makes an aftermarket extended safety for the BHP... and I don't really know how well it would work, honestly.

 

[JTQ]

I don't really know if anyone makes an aftermarket extended safety for the BHP... and I don't really know how well it would work, honestly.

Cylinder & Slide did https://cylinder-slide.com/Category/BHPsaf

Novak uses a bigger safety http://www.novaksinc.com/custom-bhp-packages.html

Edit to add: The Springfield version of the gun that the OP has appears to have a fairly sizable thumb safety.

https://www.springfield-armory.com/sa-35-series-handguns/sa-35-handguns/

 

[bannockburn]

Riomouse911

I gave up golf many years ago, too many kidlet’s at home and not enough time to go. (I do have a set of Ping Eye 2’s though, my favorite irons.

Same here... as soon as we started having kid's there went my Sunday morning golf outings. I even have the same golf clubs as you, gathering dust on them out in the garage! Really should clean them up and sell them as I have several physical impairments that pretty much preclude me from playing golf anymore. At least they don't prevent me from going to the range whenever I want to!

The Hi-Power grip frame shape is like perfection in my hands. The 1911, as well as the CZ P01. are also quite comfortable and accommodating to me! As for the Glock G17, not so much but I do like the shape and size of the Glock G43X and the G48.