Some observations while shooting a trio of John Brownings “fighting pistols” today.

[Mizar]

Ummm, since the early 80's when Mk. II was introduced, FN (Browning) Hi Powers are equiped with an extended safety lever.

 

[Waveski]

Note at about the 1:40 mark where his trigger finger goes.

Interesting - he moves his finger well clear of the trigger between shots. I guess that eliminates any guesswork regarding reset.
I’ve never used that technique , didn’t even know it existed.
Have I been under a rock?

 

[UncleEd]

Bill Wilson has explained that he got in the habit
of moving his finger completely off the trigger from
extensive shooting of the Colt Python in DA.

The Python of yore has a rather slow trigger action
and it is best not to ride that trigger after firing.

Wilson has mentioned this many times since the
Python was his favorite revolver in wheelgun
competitions.

 

[doubleh]

Goldilocks’ favored bed for me.

I didn't realise you were old enough to have been in bed with Goldilocks.

Nice write up on the guns.

 

[SwampWolf]

I haven’t shot a Hi Power or clone in many, many years so I can’t recall if the one I had issued to me back in the 1990’s had much of a reset (Nor have I fired another SA-35 to see if this is the norm).

I found this very interesting. I retired from le after 29 years of service and over that course of time had many incidences of contact with many other le agencies and never heard of a Hi Power pistol being issued to field officers anywhere. Imo, you could have been issued much worse in terms of comparison as to which sidearm might have been otherwise assigned to you for service.

 

[Tallball]

This is not negativity, but I laughed when I saw the picture from the video of the man holding the 1911 correctly.

His hand is a totally different size and shape than mine. I just now held a 1911. My pinky would be touching the magazine if it weren't twisted in the wrong direction. My thumbs are far too large and incorrectly placed to use a TOS hold.

Those of us with unusual hands have to hold things differently than most of you.

 

[Riomouse911]

I found this very interesting. I retired from le after 29 years of service and over that course of time had many incidences of contact with many other le agencies and never heard of a Hi Power pistol being issued to field officers anywhere. Imo, you could have been issued much worse in terms of comparison as to which sidearm might have been otherwise assigned to you for service.

The second agency I worked for had a policy allowing for on or off duty firearms to be issued if they were in inventory. The “ official” duty gun was a 4” S&W 66-3, only a few had those. That I recall, one guy had a Beretta 92, several others had 1911’s, one guy an 645 S&W, and I carried, at the time, my own P-226 on duty. The Hi Power was my issued off duty for a year or two, but had I bought the holster and qualified I could have used it on duty.

We also had a “gun and computer loan” program where a duty gun or a home PC would be bought by the sworn employee. Submit the receipts or quotes for an eligible item and the city would front the full cost, then they took out equal paycheck deductions for a year to cover the cost plus an admin fee of a few bucks. I bought a H&K USP .45 as a duty gun using this when they first came out. (A Mistake for me, I sold it!)

The mechanics and shop guys had a tool and PC loan program (The Snap On reps loved that!), the office workers a PC and training class program, etc. It was actually a pretty cool deal for everybody, as our salaries were not at the levels of other Cities in the area so these were ideas to attract and retain people.

A new chief came in from an agency up North and was a total disaster. He rescinded all of these things for PD employees, took every issued gun back and melted them down. Worst of all, he brought in a shady dude who “retired-in-lieu of” from the largest sheriffs dept. in the country as his second in command. After a year or so of laying low, this scoundrel then went on a spree and hired a bunch of buddies, cronies and clowns with equally sketchy histories, etc. These two guys completely crippled that agency in the span of about 5 years before they were finally canned. In less than 4 years, over 45 of us (Lieutenants on down) ultimately left during their tenure or right after for saner pastures out of the 110 we were authorized. (17 years later and the place is still trying to fully recover from the talent drain!)

So yes, some places did have wildly different policies for duty gun selection, and some even issued some rather different stuff (like a Hi Power) back then.

Stay safe.

 

[UncleEd]

My introduction to the BHP came because of advice
from some Illinois State Police members who privately
ran a small pistol range.

The ISP was the first major agency to issue an auto, the
S&W Model 39, in the U.S. Naturally I had to have one.

One day while at the small range, a couple of troopers
suggested I consider buying a BHP, the gun they really
liked.

And that is how my love of the BHP began.

 

[WVsig]

With the 2-14 patent date of the 1911 pistol just passed, I took a couple of 1911’s (Springfield Loaded 5” .45 and a Kimber 5” Stainless Target II 9mm) and a Springfield SA-35 Hi Power clone to the range for a bit. (I know they weren’t pure 1911’s, and the Hi Power wasn’t all his work, but this is as close as I can get.) I had the A side of the range to myself today, several others were banging away on the B side.

I noticed a few things about these guns that was kind of fun to compare.

The 1911 fits my hand well, but the SA-35 feels like a glove. The wider grip shape and thin wood panels combined to make this pistol feel like Goldilocks’ favored bed for me.

The SA-35 jumped a lot when recoiling. The gun is light at the front, which makes handling nice but the gun bucks in my hands more than either of the 1911’s did. I hadn’t really noticed this difference until today after shooting a bunch of shots back to back.

The indoor range I frequent is a tad dark, making black sights-on-black targets, challenging, to be kind. I had a bit of trouble discerning the sights on the Loaded .45. They are tritium, but the vials were not able to glow with the ambient light. They are also rather thin in profile so the front gets lost easy. In these conditions the gun was a challenge to keep aimed where I needed to, as the black colored, reduced B-29 silhouette looked like a big blob when aiming at 10 yds. The 1911 points well for me though, so finding the middle made it work for 20 shots.

View attachment 1134013

View attachment 1134014

The SA-35 has a nice white dot front, but the rear sight is all black and also blended into the target. This, combined with the increased muzzle flip, slowed down recoil recovery and didn’t help my follow up shots. (I couldn’t use a timer to see how much, the many other shooters in the building would drive a shot timer nuts.)

I noticed the first time I shot this gun that my right thumb knuckle can start to push up the safety lever and hinder firing. It happened again when shooting today, so this is one grip alteration that I have to make to keep the gun running.

I bought three nickel plated 13-round Mec Gar magazines because the SA OEM 15 rounders were sold out everywhere I shop. All three Mec Gar mags ran perfectly with zero hiccups.

Another thing I noticed about my SA-35 is a total lack of a tactile or audible trigger reset. I haven’t shot a Hi Power or clone in many, many years so I can’t recall if the one I had issued to me back in the 1990’s had much of a reset (Nor have I fired another SA-35 to see if this is the norm). This was a bit confusing at first, as I am so used to a reset on my other pistols giving me a starting point for follow ups, but I had to get used to it so away I went. The 20 were not as well centered as with the .45, but at least I didn’t miss any.

For those with Hi Powers, SA-35’s or FEG/Girsan/Tisas type HP clones I ask two things; does your gun have any type of trigger reset you can hear/feel? (If not, does it affect your shooting rhythm?)

And second, does your usual pistol grip style ever impinge on the safety? (I am used to a thumbs-forward grip with everything else, but with this gun I have to hold with a firm thumbs down.)

Stay safe.

I am late to this party but will put my thoughts out there on the SA-35 and the Browning HI Power in general and also try to address some of your questions directly. First JMB did not design the pistol we shoot today and call the BHP. Dieudonné Saive did.

The SA-35 is an ok clone of the BHP. One of the "improvements" they made to the pistol was to remove the magazine disconnect lever. They however did not change the trigger return spring to the heavier. There is a 2 coil version which is sold by Wolf and BHSS that will give the trigger a more authoritative forward reset. It however will never be the same as a Glock.

The SA35 is being milled by someone other than SA but they won't tell you who. I would be willing to bet that they are from Turkey. I have one. It is a fine gun but I like the FN/Browning guns better. The finish on the SA35 is poor at best. 100% functional but they saved a lot of time and money not cleaning it up or polishing it at all. You could cut a steak with some the rear of grip straps on some of the SA35s I have seen. It happened with FN guns too when they were lazy and the tooling was old.

I shoot 1911s with a high grip and have been known to ride the safety. I have never had an issue with the MKII and MKIII safeties. I however replace them for better parts on any serious work gun. As to the older C series and earlier numb safety they manual of arms is different. It is not the same type of lever that a modern 1911 safety is. It was designed to be manipulated by the second joint of your thumb with the numb in that "crook" allowing you to literally thumb is down.

MecGar makes the SA mags and was the OEM supplier for FN/Browning. FN always shipped with 13 rounders. They are the more reliable mag. Their follower have legs which prevent the follower from tipping. MecGar in order to get 2 more rounds in to the same tube removed the legs. The follower is thus more prone to tilting and failure. Spring replacement is more critical on 15 round mags. Greg Cote is the best source for mags https://gregcotellc.com/cart/browning-springfield-sa35-c-121/

As to grips where mentioned somewhere in the thread not all BHP grips are drop in. The best grip in the world for BHPs are made by Craig Spegel. He sends instructions on how to fit them because even in the FN/Browning guns there is some variations in the frame dimensions. Most of the time it is an easy fix but other times a set simply won't bed to the gun properly. Trial and error is sometimes required.

When somebody mentions the significance of trigger reset, my first guess is they are primarily Glock shooters.

I never noticed the reset on a pistol until I got on gun forums and started reading posts from what were most likely Glock shooters who focus on the reset.

Here is a video showing Bill Wilson, of Wilson Combat shooting. Note at about the 1:40 mark where his trigger finger goes.

This all day everyday! Everyone loves to talk about shooting the reset of modern pistols but the reality is that there is a small fraction of people that can truly do it. Most people are actually slowing themselves down and shooting less accurately vs shooting faster and cleaner. It is one of the most parroted "tips" on Boobtube and internet forums but when you watch people who can really shoot most of them are using a controlled slap like Bill in the Video. Watch Rob Leathman he is slapping that trigger he is not riding the reset.

Another great video. Ernest Langdon is spot on here. This is another great video where he is explaining how to shoot fast and accurately.



The BHP is a great design for some people if you understand it strengths and weaknesses. A guy named T Yost once told me a BHP is a good gun. To make it great it need a great trigger, great sights and a great safety. Stock it just ok. Beautiful and elegant but just ok. Now time for the gratuitous BHP pic.

 

[1KPerDay]

Interesting; I would have expected the SA-35 to have less felt recoil.

Lots of people are surprised, including me. The hi power has the most muzzle flip of any 9mm service pistol I’ve tried. I feel the same about the trigger and reset also. It may have its good points but other pistols are more enjoyable to shoot for me.

 

[UncleEd]

As for muzzle flip on the BHP, I think it's
because most of the weight is "in the
hand," meaning from the trigger on back.
The muzzle is slim and lightweight. It's
a reason the gun feels so "handy" and
pleasant to hold.

 

[1KPerDay]

Ummm, since the early 80's when Mk. II was introduced, FN (Browning) Hi Powers are equiped with an extended safety lever.

My FN wasn’t

 

[Mizar]

My FN wasn’t

Yours was an Israeli one, right? There are two options, so pick the one you prefer: Israelis did specify a small, single sided safety lever, or it's just a parts gun... Israeli armorers are not known for matching parts, including frames and barrels, to the specific model - they just installed what they had on hand. Mk. II had several improvements over the previous model, the more important of which are better sights, barrel with a straight feed ramp and ambidextrous safety with extended levers. It was introduced in 1982.

 

[1KPerDay]

Yours was an Israeli one, right? There are two options, so pick the one you prefer: Israelis did specify a small, single sided safety lever, or it's just a parts gun... Israeli armorers are not known for matching parts, including frames and barrels, to the specific model - they just installed what they had on hand. Mk. II had several improvements over the previous model, the more important of which are better sights, barrel with a straight feed ramp and ambidextrous safety with extended levers. It was introduced in 1982.

Yeah Israeli surplus with otherwise mkiii features

 

[Charlie98]

Those of us with unusual hands have to hold things differently than most of you.

I'm missing part of my left thumb (to the joint...) so when I see 'ambidextrous' I just giggle and move on. My days as a movie critic are over, also... no '2 thumbs up!' from me.

 

[bangswitch]

Hi-Powers by design does not have a tactile trigger reset, say like a 1911 type pistol - you must learn to release the trigger fully, much like shooting a revolver in DA. .

I've always equated the BHP trigger as being like a 2-stage rifle trigger. The "slack" when you start pulling is like the first stage takeup, and then there's the crisp break when the sear releases. Except crispness is a hit-or-miss proposition sometimes with the BHP. I removed the magazine disconnect from mine (MkIII) and it helped tremendously reducing the creep. I think the transfer bar mechanism "hides" the feel of the reset.