Some work to do before choosing a self-defense handgun

[Doc7]

Here are my questions for those who don't want to read a long description of my thought process as I shot a bunch of handguns today:

- How proficient should one be BEFORE choosing and purchasing a handgun for CCW purposes? It seems hard to pick a handgun without a lot of skill at shooting them, but then again it seems hard (and costly) to acquire skill with having to rent only and buy range ammo.

- Is a private lesson or two enough to help me decide on if a gun is a good fit for me, if I find an instructor who knows I have this in mind?

- Should ability to rapidly fire shots, which to be honest seems a LONG way off at my current handgun skill, be an important factor or is this something that can come with any gun as the fundamentals get practiced and speed comes along later, naturally?





So I think I've taken a lot of good steps so far in my slow progression to where I am now. Took NRA Basic Pistol course, developed a fanatical firearm safety habit, have shot (and given some basic instruction with my parents, wife, sister) rifle and shotgun at a private range quite a bit, acquired myself a .22 revolver that I plink with but I am not very well versed in exercising the fundamentals of shooting with handguns yet. I watch a ton of YouTube videos of reputabe gun guys but I know that this is NOT a substitute for actual training. I wonder if I need some actual training before I go on to choosing a self defense weapon, because it is a lot harder than I thought it would be.

I went out to the range today to test (expensively!) a bunch of handguns so I can figure out what to acquire and get proficient with, of particular importance to me because I want to exercise my right to carry in my new home state of Virginia as soon as I am safe and trained enough to do so. I had the following reactions (bullet weights were what they had available at range, and cannot use own rounds with rented guns):

Ruger LCR 38 Spl with 158 grain standard pressure round nose
- I know that this is not a gun for a beginner but as it was there, I wanted to try it in case I end up getting a J-Frame style revolver as well as a slightly larger piece, so I have both IWB and Pocket Carry options.
- After 30 rounds some skin on the top side of my thumb was peeled off ouch! The recoil was quite heavy as you know with this light weight gun, and as I expected. I want to have a comparison point.
- Accuracy was reasonable, the trigger felt OK to me for a DA revolver.

A stainless or nickel Smith and Wesson of unknown model # with the same 38 spl rounds above; it had wooden grip with flames etched on the cylinder. A brief google makes me think possibly a "36LS"?
- The heavier weight meant recoil was a lot better
- The trigger was so heavy I could not keep a good sight picture.
- I felt like I wanted the softer grips of the LCR and the lighter trigger of the LCR with the heavier weight of this gun at this point.


Glock 19 w/ 115 gr Blazer FMJ
- I got too far ahead of myself I think and tried some rapid fire strings with terrible accuracy. This is where I ask - how much training should I have BEFORE I try this, because obviously I am too much of a beginner to be able to judge a gun on my ability to rapid-fire it.
- Obviously the lightest trigger pull at this point in the test.
- Thought it was too big for my hand as I had to shift to reach magazine release, but google indicates that is normal now after the fact

Kimber CDP Ultra II .45 w/ 230 gr FMJ
- By far the best trigger in the test
- In slow fire, at 5 yards I had a 2" 5 shot group which amazed me.
- I don't recall thinking the recoil was much different than the Glock but at this point I was 100 rounds in and maybe a little "shell shocked". I'm a long way from plinking with my .22 revolver here.
- I did not like the grips as they had a sharp diamond design on them but I know I can swap out grips.
- I again tried rapid fire and that was just as no bueno as before. But again I think I need all of the fundamentals first before I start trying that.



My group size that I could get in slow fire with the 1911 tells me that at least I can shoot a centerfire if I take my time.

I hope I gave enough, and not too too much, information to tell you where I'm at and what my concerns may be.

Thank you!

 

[ohbythebay]

One suggestion..maybe two..LOL

First...just try two at a time. Give yourself a chance to get comfortable with each. Slow fire. Find your sight picture (the Glock 19 should be at 6 oclock) versus ones where you bury the front sight on the target.

Think about is 9mm enough or do you need to go 45. while it does have anice trigger, it will have more kick and the ammo is more expensive.

So first, stick with a basic caliber, whatever it is, but for sake of discussion, say 9mm.

Try the following:

Smith & Wesson M&P
Glock 19
Glock 26
Beretta PX4 Storm
CZ


Get the idea ? When I settled on a 9mm, I tried at least 4 and then chose the Glock for a variety of reasons. I shot well and it is very easy to strip.

I also just bought a Beretta PX4 Sub compact 9mm...small concealed carry 9mm with 13 rounds. different style altogether....

Anyway, good luck on your journey. Once you have one you are comfortable with, THEN you can work on accuracy. Like riding a bike. Shakey at first, then next thing you know, you are doing wheelies...LOL

 

[JohnBiltz]

You are over thinking this. There is a saying, "Perfect is the enemy of good enough". Your obsessing on buying the the perfect handgun when there is no such thing. Get a decent gun and practice with it. The G19 or Kimber would be fine. Shoot it a lot and then as you evolve as a shooter you will know where you want to go from there. Your going to change your mind and buy different guns as you evolve as a shooter and some guns will not work out. You have to get out there and shoot.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I carry a J frame daily and that works good for me. i see you are in NJ so you can't buy a bunch of handgun to use as you please.

My suggestion would be, choose a caliber and then a handgun you are comfortable with. It has to be comfortable in your hand or you won't want to practice with it. Then use your NRA training to practice well and you will get better the more you shoot.

People have been using a 1911 45 Auto for over 100 years for war and self defense, there would be nothing wrong with buying a 1911 for conceal carry since you seem to already like that platform. It's the single action trigger that feels so good to you and millions of others who shoot the 1911.

 

[Valkman]

If the Kimber feels good to you plus you shoot it well I'd go with it. I have 3 Kimbers and one has been my carry gun for over 10 years.

 

[Doc7]

I carry a J frame daily and that works good for me. i see you are in NJ so you can't buy a bunch of handgun to use as you please.

My suggestion would be, choose a caliber and then a handgun you are comfortable with. It has to be comfortable in your hand or you won't want to practice with it. Then use your NRA training to practice well and you will get better the more you shoot.

People have been using a 1911 45 Auto for over 100 years for war and self defense, there would be nothing wrong with buying a 1911 for conceal carry since you seem to already like that platform. It's the single action trigger that feels so good to you and millions of others who shoot the 1911.

Ill be a VA resident as soon as I sign a lease and head to the DMV for a license.


Thanks for all comments so far!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Ill be a VA resident as soon as I sign a lease and head to the DMV for a license.


Thanks for all comments so far!

Good for you, I moves to PA from NYC and what a big difference in freedoms!

 

[1911 guy]

Proficiency comes with practice. Practice with the handgun you've chosen for CCW.

Scroll down through the pages of General Handguns and find a thread titled "Starting our right". A new member started it, asking some very basic questions about choosing a handgun. There was some good advice given there. Use it to choose your new handgun.

It all begins with choosing a gun that fits you. The referenced thread has guidance about how to select something that fits.

 

[HexHead]

A steel framed Smith & Wesson revolver can be a very good choice. A trip to a gunsmith can make the trigger as nice or better than the LCR and you can easily change the grips to more comfortable ones.

 

[Doc7]

The more I think about how happy I was with my group size with the 1911 the more I think I want to get one and obtain proficiency with it.

 

[Joe Demko]

1911 is a gun that requires presence of mind and is not forgiving of lapses. The other guns you tried require no further manipulation than pulling the trigger to make them fire. The 1911 has a safety that must be disengaged. If you train enough to do this consistently, even under great stress, then the 1911 will work for you. If not, you could find things going badly for you in a self-defense situation when your gun doesn't fire because you forgot to disengage the safety.
I have seen people on the firing line at annual qualification and in shooting matches do this. The typical reaction was to stop and give the gun a puzzled look. The 1911 has a lot to offer, but it is not a gun for the casual shooter to use as a primary self defense piece.

 

[Kleanbore]

This is the thread to which 1911 guy refers in Post #8.

I suggest reading Posts 6, 16, 20, and the article inked in Post 12 of that thread.

 

[Doc7]

This is the thread to which 1911 guy refers in Post #8.

I suggest reading Posts 6, 16, 20, and the article inked in Post 12 of that thread.

Thanks. I have been following that thread and posted in posts 4 and 5 actually early on.

 

[Doc7]

1911 is a gun that requires presence of mind and is not forgiving of lapses. The other guns you tried require no further manipulation than pulling the trigger to make them fire. The 1911 has a safety that must be disengaged. If you train enough to do this consistently, even under great stress, then the 1911 will work for you. If not, you could find things going badly for you in a self-defense situation when your gun doesn't fire because you forgot to disengage the safety.
I have seen people on the firing line at annual qualification and in shooting matches do this. The typical reaction was to stop and give the gun a puzzled look. The 1911 has a lot to offer, but it is not a gun for the casual shooter to use as a primary self defense piece.

Thanks for the comments and I will definitely continue to take them under advisement. I will rent a few more times before making a choice . I was much more accurate with the 1911 in slow fire than with any other gun so I will possibly look for a DA/SA style to "compete" against the 1911 for my choice.


I don't consider myself a casual shooter, just a new-ish one. I'm trying to buy property in my new home state to have a private range on.

 

[Doc7]

I don't know if all 1911s have the same safety as the Kimber CDP but to be honest after all I have read about it I was thinking it was going to be a sliding button on the side (kind of like the Mossberg 500 safety but in the 1911 location). Instead I found a very ergonomic lever that easily and positively clicked into the 'Fire' position. I think that dry fire holster draw practice would easily ingrain that into my muscle memory. I was more concerned about it being a physically difficult manipulation but it is nothing like the mossberg safety.

 

[1911 guy]

The 1911 does require training to disengage the safety. However, so does every rifle and shotgun we use. The handgun was designed and issued with the intent of use by farmboys and draftees. it worked just fine. Worked great for more than half a century and taking the safety off was a given. Then came the advent of tupperware guns. Now we've convinced ourselves that taking a safety off is a big deal.

There have been a lot of classes where I've seen shooters simply state at a handgun when they should have been clearing a malfunction. Usually a Glock or other popular brand.

 

[Sam1911]

At your point in your learning curve, I don't think you have to worry too much about choosing what's "perfect" for you. You are the raw material to be molded. The gun is just the tool.

I love various guns and appreciate their design distinctions. Having said that, those design distinctions aren't all that important to you where you're at.

If you pick one now and use it as the "platform" upon which to build your skills, you will do very well. To some degree, it doesn't matter which one.

Having said that, in your shoes, I'd take the G19. A million folks have learned on them, trained with them, and used them in every role from the nightstand drawer to the highest levels of practical competition. Reasonably priced, reliable, a sort of industry standard, if you will.

When you've got 10,000 rounds under your belt, you may come to the realization that the Glock isn't exactly the right gun for you. That's fine. By then you won't have to ask us.

 

[1911 guy]

I agree to a certain extent, Sam. But... A new shooter will progress faster and with far less frustration if they begin with a handgun that fits their hands properly. This isn't an issue weapon, he has a choice. Why make his learning curve longer than it needs to be.

When someone wants to buy a rifle or shotgun, especially a shotgun, the advice is LOUDLY voiced to ensure it fits. But when it comes to handguns, all you hear is "Buy a "X"" because I like mine."

An experienced shooter can pick up anything and make it work. A new shooter does not yet have the fundamentals to do so. Fighting the gun while trying to learn the basics isn't good.

 

[Jim Watson]

Yeah, but you have to watch out for that "fit" thing.
Had a guy pick up a Luger the other day and opine that it "fitted" him and he would expect to shoot it well. He is not inexperienced, but learned on more common guns like 1911 and Glock.

 

[Teachu2]

Carried a 1911 for most of three decades, then switched to Glocks. Now that the local Sheriff has expanded CCW permits to include ten guns, here's what I carry (in order of most to least often):
1. Glock 26 - could easily be a S&W M&P9c, except that one is my wife's EDC.
2. S&W Shield 9mm
3. Glock 36
4. Glock 30
5. Glock 23 (9x19mm, .40SW, .357Sig barrels)
6. S&W .38 Airweight J frame
7. Colt 1911 Stainless
8. Les Baer SRP (1911)
9. Colt Series 70 1911
10. Sig SP2022 - great gun, just different from the rest. If I were only going to have one gun, this might be it.

All of these see a fair amount of range time. What gun I wear depends on the day's activities and attire. At times, I may have a couple on me or within reach. If I were going to take one off my permit, it would be the Airweight - the Shield fills that role well for me.

No matter what you buy, you may change priorities over time. My first carry gun was a 6" N frame .357.....

 

[ATLDave]

I express no opinion regarding particular choice of gun,* nor about the timing of purchase, but write to say this:

There is no "rapid fire." Every shot should be taken with a level of sight picture (or point, if you're into point-shooting) that is appropriate to the difficulty of the shot. Very fast competitive pistol shooters are just obtaining their acceptable sight picture sooner and are able to break the shot in response. As you get more familiar with shooting a handgun, improve your grip, get training, etc., speed will come. But it's not a separate technique.

*OK, one comment. If you're new to handling guns, you should be wary, IMO, of a gun that combines a light trigger and no safety. Primarily because of the risks that come with holstering guns. It is very easy for something (a shirt tail, a key on a key ring, a zipper, a draw-string, the corner of a seat-belt buckle, the corner of the holster itself...) to get inside the trigger guard during holstering. With a safety applied, you'll notice something wrong, but the gun won't go off. With a long, heavy pull (like a revolver), you're pretty likely to notice something wrong before the gun goes off. With a lighter trigger and no safety, a loud noise and a hole in your leg may be the first thing that makes you notice something is amiss. Some people object to the above, but it's all true.

 

[Sam1911]

A new shooter will progress faster and with far less frustration if they begin with a handgun that fits their hands properly. This isn't an issue weapon, he has a choice. Why make his learning curve longer than it needs to be.

When someone wants to buy a rifle or shotgun, especially a shotgun, the advice is LOUDLY voiced to ensure it fits. But when it comes to handguns, all you hear is "Buy a "X"" because I like mine."

Because for reasons of ergonomics, that's simply not important with a handgun as it is with a shotgun.

A shotgun has to be fitted because of the fact that it is pointed, not aimed, and that means that the shoulder, butt, cheek, comb, head position, and front bead all have to be brought into a precise arrangement that will let a shooter hit where s/he looks.

A handgun is far, far simpler than that and does not work in any equivalent manner of pointing/aiming that requires the gun to FIT the shooter's frame in any specific way. All service handguns are roughly equivalent in that regard. Instead, there's one point of contact, a trigger, and sights. You aren't doing what comes "naturally" to your body, you're learning how teach your body to use a tool.

And a Glock is about as generically workable as it gets. If you can't be taught to shoot a Glock acceptably well, you're the problem. Not the gun. (For full disclosure, I don't own one, so this isn't about favorites.)

There are small differences, of course, and one gun might feel more inherently comfortable to the hands than another, but by the time those tiny differences are causing the shooter's progress to plateau, he'll know enough to pick exactly the gun he wants.

An experienced shooter can pick up anything and make it work. A new shooter does not yet have the fundamentals to do so. Fighting the gun while trying to learn the basics isn't good.

I pretty much see this exactly the opposite. A new shooter won't be fighting a service style handgun. They're all built to be about equally suitable to all shooters. Once he's got 10-20K rounds down the pipe he'll have developed some of the experience to know why x,y,or z might change some small factor that's impeding his ability to shave a few tenths off the times, or turn more "C" hits into "As."

I read and hear a lot of shooters fretting about which handgun "fits" them best and flitting from gun to gun thinking that there's a handgun that will be magically in tune with their body and make them shoot like they think they aught to shoot. (This DOES happen with a well-fitted shotgun. Totally different.) Instead, they need to invest in training and a lot of ammo.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Sam1911: You are the raw material to be molded. The gun is just the tool.

...those design distinctions aren't all that important to you where you're at.

I think it's a matter of degree.

The other day, a man was having trouble hitting with his pistol, a very popular model, in a training class. The instructor went into coaching mode and then diagnosis mode, concluded that the gun just didn't fit the shooter's hand, and provided another one.

A couple of years ago, I looked into buying one of the best known single action semi-auto pistols in the world, after realizing that despite its capacity, it was concealable. However, I found that the safety, unlike the one on my own .45, was not really easy for me to operate rapidly. Moreover, the trigger pull was not to my liking, probably due to the interaction of magazine disconnect safety. I then tried another pistol, which, as it happened, was the same one that proved problematical for the person in the class the other day. It was apparent that it did not fit my hand, either.

A couple of other SA autos that I have enjoyed shooting in the past (namely, the old Colt pocket autos and the Beretta 1934) would not suit my SD needs because the safeties are not easily disengaged upon presentation.

The other key issue is reliability. I am more than skeptical of the compact "1911" designs with three inch barrels. I base that on input from others.

Back in the day, there were not really very many handguns from which to choose. We got a chance to try many of them at the range, and we eagerly awaited new magazine articles from Askins, Askins, Ayoob, Jordan, Libourel, Skelton, Skelton, Wilson, and others to read their views.

Now there are many new handguns from which to choose. How reliable are they? How will they hold up?

I sure don't know. I'm inclined to put a lot of stock into the opinions of people who see hundreds of people put untold numbers of rounds through them.

And the the question is which of those that make the cut work well for the individual.

 

[MrBorland]

At your point in your learning curve, I don't think you have to worry too much about choosing what's "perfect" for you. You are the raw material to be molded. The gun is just the tool.

I agree with Sam. There's merit to checking out your options before deciding, but one can also overthink it and begin chasing equipment.

Find a gun you like and that fits your requirements, then buy it, and make a decision to master it. The skills you develop in the process will transfer to other guns & platforms when it's time.

 

[Doc7]

"There is no "rapid fire." Every shot should be taken with a level of sight picture (or point, if you're into point-shooting) that is appropriate to the difficulty of the shot. "

Thanks this is very useful