Something between 7.62x39 and .308...

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marksman13 said:
Apparently so, but don't worry because you aren't the only one it seems...
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It's really not a complicated question fellas.

The typical .308 throws a 150-grain bullet about 2800 fps. and produces over 15 ft. lbs. of recoil in an average weight rifle. In a lightweight rifle, it's close to an '06 in felt recoil and while experienced men may not find this "punishing" I know a lot of folks who don't want to shoot that all day long. Especially from the light rifles they are making today with the tupperware stocks.

A 7.62x39 throws a 150-grain bullet about 2250 fps. and produces about 8 lbs. of felt recoil.

Now, if you don't think there is room between 2800 fps and 15 lbs and 2250 and 8 lbs., you're on your own. I got nothin'

Personally, I think there is, and I think the American whitetail hunter would eat it up.
 
I think our love affair with .30 is waning. The answer to "something in between 7.62x39 and 7.62x51" has been .243 and .260 Rem and 7m-08. Before that it was .257 Roberts, .250 Savage, .300 Savage. Recently the choice for "in between" is shifting to more 6.5, with 6.5 Creedmore doing the most to make the 6.5 caliber popular. Out of all of them I think the .243 crushed all "in between" cartridges. It was fine for everything up through deer but was not ideal for bear or elk. The 6.5 (.260, x57, Creedmore) is more versatile. Light recoil, flat shooting, yet big enough for the big game with the right bullets, and it was made for bullets with great SD and BC, so good for hunting as well as targets.

I am a fan of .30-30 and .30-06, but I am appreciating the capabilities of my 6.5x57 Swede more and more. I handload, but am also thinking about who will be inheriting my rifles and whether they will be handloading or not.

I think the 6.5 and .277 calibers are far more versatile than the .30, and we almost could have standardized on them before WWII. Lots of wildcatting went on in the 20s and 30s with .25-.277 cartridges, but the Army decision to have the M1 Garand NOT chambered in the original .270 caliber but in the old Springfield .30-06 from WWI entrenched America in .30 up through the 60s and it has taken some time for other calibers to re-surface.
 
NWPilgrim, I think you're absolutely right. If I had a 30BR or 7.62x45, it would be my "old timey" woods rifle. :D

Like you, I'm a big 6.5x55 fan. 7x57 too. I love cartridges with a history but that are still relevant (like my 7.62x39 ;))
 
I would have to agree there is a big gap between 7.62x39 and a 308. A 7.62x39 is almost recoiless to me, but a 308 is over a lot of peoples comfort threshold.

The 6.5 Grendel is not appealing to me as a deer round. Our deer here are big and shooting ranges are 90% of the time 100 yards or less so the high ballistic coefficient bullets are a waste. I will trade bullet diameter for BC because I've seen first had it makes a difference on game.

The real ticket is making something that makes sense to chamber in. A shortened 308 bolt head cartridge makes no sense to me because it would still go in a 308 length action. A Grendel based cartridge does make sense to me because it would fit in an AR15 and the mini bolt actions.
 
And I will say it only interests me in an AR15. I am considering using my 7.62x39 AR for deer or using it as a loaner rifle for other people. Another couple hundred fps with 125's would make it a really sweet brush hunter.

I definitely see the appeal in a compact bolt action for smaller shooters or anyone recoil sensitive, but I have plenty of rifles in full size calibers and recoil doesn't matter to me so I would pass on that.
 
A 7.62x39 is almost recoiless to me, but a 308 is over a lot of peoples comfort threshold.
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exactly.

I've often wondered about an "AI'd" 7.62x39 or it's equivalent. I don't want a whole lot more than what my bolt action 7.62x39 can do, but I do want more if I'm going to carry it into the deer woods. And like you said, the recoil from that caliber is almost nil so there is some room to work with there.
 
Newtosavage said:
exactly.

I've often wondered about an "AI'd" 7.62x39 or it's equivalent. I don't want a whole lot more than what my bolt action 7.62x39 can do, but I do want more if I'm going to carry it into the deer woods. And like you said, the recoil from that caliber is almost nil so there is some room to work with there.
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Yeah I think I could put the stock of my 7.62x39 AR on my cheekbone and do mag dumps lol.
 
Newtosavage said:
It's really not a complicated question fellas.

The typical .308 throws a 150-grain bullet about 2800 fps. and produces over 15 ft. lbs. of recoil in an average weight rifle. In a lightweight rifle, it's close to an '06 in felt recoil and while experienced men may not find this "punishing" I know a lot of folks who don't want to shoot that all day long. Especially from the light rifles they are making today with the tupperware stocks.

A 7.62x39 throws a 150-grain bullet about 2250 fps. and produces about 8 lbs. of felt recoil.

Now, if you don't think there is room between 2800 fps and 15 lbs and 2250 and 8 lbs., you're on your own. I got nothin'

Personally, I think there is, and I think the American whitetail hunter would eat it up.
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Seems like if this were the case, it would exist and it would be quite easy to find.
 
I haven't read all the posts but I don't understand why the 308 is too much. Hunting deer requires one or two shots. Is two shots from a 308 that punishing? I suppose if there are physical limitations such as age or injuries involved it could be a problem. Other than that, if your not strong enough to shoot a 308 how the heck are you going to drag the animal out of the woods ?
 
Duke, the .308 isn't "too much" for the average man if they are only shooting a few shots. But I shoot my hunting rifles a LOT and I think the reason more people don't shoot their hunting rifles a LOT (other than the cost of ammo) is that they don't enjoy shooting .308's (or more) in 7.5-8 lb. rifles. When I hand my 7.62x39 to someone, they usually ask for more ammo and describe it as "fun" to shoot. .308 may not be terrible, but I can't recall anyone ever saying a .308 with factory ammo from a standard hunting weight rifle was "fun" to shoot.

I take a lot of people to the range who don't shoot nearly as much as I do. I can't recall any of them ever asking for more .308 ammo.

You know, we keep making these arguments that a .308 isn't bad at all to shoot, and then turn around and wonder why we don't see more women and kids at the range or in the woods. LOL
 
While I enjoy caliber discussions and like to learn about the endless options, the OP was "day to day deer rifle" . Now we are at fun range rifle teaching women and kids to shoot.
 
Newtosavage said:
Duke, the .308 isn't "too much" for the average man if they are only shooting a few shots. But I shoot my hunting rifles a LOT and I think the reason more people don't shoot their hunting rifles a LOT (other than the cost of ammo) is that they don't enjoy shooting .308's (or more) in 7.5-8 lb. rifles. When I hand my 7.62x39 to someone, they usually ask for more ammo and describe it as "fun" to shoot. .308 may not be terrible, but I can't recall anyone ever saying a .308 with factory ammo from a standard hunting weight rifle was "fun" to shoot.

I take a lot of people to the range who don't shoot nearly as much as I do. I can't recall any of them ever asking for more .308 ammo.

You know, we keep making these arguments that a .308 isn't bad at all to shoot, and then turn around and wonder why we don't see more women and kids at the range or in the woods. LOL
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i tame my saiga 308 down to a ak 47 kick with a muzzle break as this s-l500.jpg so it not a issue anymore to shoot more:D
 
Newtosavage said:
Duke, the .308 isn't "too much" for the average man if they are only shooting a few shots. But I shoot my hunting rifles a LOT and I think the reason more people don't shoot their hunting rifles a LOT (other than the cost of ammo) is that they don't enjoy shooting .308's (or more) in 7.5-8 lb. rifles. When I hand my 7.62x39 to someone, they usually ask for more ammo and describe it as "fun" to shoot. .308 may not be terrible, but I can't recall anyone ever saying a .308 with factory ammo from a standard hunting weight rifle was "fun" to shoot.

I take a lot of people to the range who don't shoot nearly as much as I do. I can't recall any of them ever asking for more .308 ammo.

You know, we keep making these arguments that a .308 isn't bad at all to shoot, and then turn around and wonder why we don't see more women and kids at the range or in the woods. LOL
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My wife and daughter both shoot my SCAR 17 and M1As a ton. No complaints about recoil, though they are heavier rifles. I don't think recoil is keeping women and kids away from the shooting sports. I think women in general have less interest in shooting than men do and kids would rather play XBox and eat cheetos. I think if there was a bunch of interest in a .30 cal between x39 and x51 it would be readily available. I think that question was answered with 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel because those bullets are far easier to push at the speeds you are looking for in a short action.
 
marksman13 said:
My wife and daughter both shoot my SCAR 17 and M1As a ton. No complaints about recoil, though they are heavier rifles. I don't think recoil is keeping women and kids away from the shooting sports. I think women in general have less interest in shooting than men do and kids would rather play XBox and eat cheetos. I think if there was a bunch of interest in a .30 cal between x39 and x51 it would be readily available. I think that question was answered with 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel because those bullets are far easier to push at the speeds you are looking for in a short action.
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have you notice the cheap Grendel ammo has dryed up now, its pushing a 1$ a round https://ammoseek.com/ammo/6.5mm-grendel
because of the increase in demand thus keeping the 30cal stuff cheap
 
marksman13 said:
No complaints about recoil, though they are heavier rifles.
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The complaints would come if they had to lug those rifles around all day in the deer woods.

Look, your experience is different than my own. My wife and daughter and niece and many others I've brought to the gun range all want to shoot my 7.62x39 and none of them want to shoot my .308s. There is only one difference between them and that is recoil. So I'm just calling it as I see it.

Both of my daughters have told me that my Win 94 30-30 is as much as they want to put up with. That's a lightweight rifle shooting .30 cal 150 grain bullets at 2400 fps. I think this is the sweet spot for most hunters when it comes to recoil. Somewhere around 10-11 ft. lbs. of energy.

So it's just odd to me we don't have a modern .30 cal option that produces 10-12 ft. lbs. of energy aside from a 30-30 lever gun, especially when you consider how popular those are.
 
DukeConnor said:
While I enjoy caliber discussions and like to learn about the endless options, the OP was "day to day deer rifle" . Now we are at fun range rifle teaching women and kids to shoot.
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Do you not see a connection between a rifle that is enjoyable to shoot, and an effective day to day deer rifle? If not, I am sorry you can't see the connection.

Like I said, there is a reason the .243 is such a popular deer cartridge, and the reason rhymes with "treefoil" LOL
 
Newtosavage said:
The complaints would come if they had to lug those rifles around all day in the deer woods.

Look, your experience is different than my own. My wife and daughter and niece and many others I've brought to the gun range all want to shoot my 7.62x39 and none of them want to shoot my .308s. There is only one difference between them and that is recoil. So I'm just calling it as I see it.

Both of my daughters have told me that my Win 94 30-30 is as much as they want to put up with. That's a lightweight rifle shooting .30 cal 150 grain bullets at 2400 fps. I think this is the sweet spot for most hunters when it comes to recoil. Somewhere around 10-11 ft. lbs. of energy.

So it's just odd to me we don't have a modern .30 cal option that produces 10-12 ft. lbs. of energy aside from a 30-30 lever gun, especially when you consider how popular those are.
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we became a whooshy society more now it appears, next will think the ar 15 is going to kick to much :uhoh:from some future laser pulse weapon with no recoil
 
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