sore muscle at base of thumb - grip wrong?

[MrBorland]

All modern DA revolvers are set up from the factory with springs that insure 100% reliability under extreme cold, dirt, or other adverse conditions.

Lightening the springs can make for a lighter trigger, but a far less reliable gun under adverse conditions you might most need it to work.

I mostly agree with RC, but wouldn't want to go so far as to discourage you from looking into a quality action job if you were thinking of it.

Lightening the spring can lead to reliability issue, but not automatically so. Smoothing of the action by a good 'smith can make an action feel lighter. And a little lightening the action can make a big difference without getting into reliability issues. J-frames are tougher to tune without loss of reliability, since, because of their size, they lack the mechanical advantages of the larger frames.

Lighter springs can result in delayed trigger return in fast DA shooting that can stop you in your tracks

This is usually a user issue - it normally happens because people are in the habit of letting the trigger push their finger forward on the return. It's a bad habit that usually stays hidden until the action's lightened considerably.

If the trigger has trouble returning on it's own, it's likely someone willy nilly messed with the main & rebound springs without making any attempt to balance them. When properly balanced like they should be (and the internals properly smooth), the trigger return shouldn't be an issue.

 

[BSA1]

Finding the right handgun often makes all of the difference for comfortable, accurate shooting.

I have commented on this several times but I will again for your consideration.

My wife has weak wrists and carpal tunnel which makes double action difficult. She shoots a single action revolver very well but lowering the hammer while under stress can be very hazardous. (For example decocking after holding someone at gun point).

We have tried a lot of different handguns over the years but never found one she really could manually shoot well. Then about two or three years ago I found a nice, used Colt Police Positive Special at Cabelas. It's slightly smaller frame and lighter weight than the K-Frame S&W and V spring action makes all of the difference in the world for her. The factory wood grips are to sharp for her rough hands so I replaced them with Hogue rubber grips. She pronounced it perfect and loves to shoot it.

The bad news (why does there always seem to be bad news) is Colt no longer makes this revolver so the used gun market is your only choice. In my area used P.P.S. and Diamondbacks (same gun with adjustable sights and vent rib) are rare. The Colt Detective Special is the same gun only with a 2" barrel.

Cost wise the gun ran me $450.00. It is a '70's production gun in 98% condition. We discovered it was skipping a chamber thus not firing on one round which probably explains why it was still in the display case. It ran me $100.00 to get it repaired. Add Hogue grips and we had about $600.00 in it which it will easily resale for although I don't think it will ever live the family.

I think it would be worth your trouble to locate a P.P.S., Diamondback or D.S. and give it a try.

 

[Jeff White]

Shooting any handgun well starts with the grip and the grip starts with proper fit. To check the fit of any handgun:

A. Make a "V" with the strong hand (the "V" is between the index finger and thumb) with the arm extended away from the body.

B. Set an Unloaded handgun in the "V" aligning the barrel with the radial bones of the arm, then establish a one handed firing grip.

C. Find a safe aiming point.

D. Bring the handgun into the line of sight, trigger finger straight. Point the handgun at the aiming point. The muzzle should point naturally at the aiming point and the sights should be naturally aligned. The sights should naturally align when the radial bones of the arm are aligned with the muzzle.

E. Place your trigger finger on the face of the trigger. If you are using a double action handgun the trigger finger is placed in to about the first joint of the finger. If you have to rotate the handgun to accomplish this, the gun is too large for your hand.

Rotating the gun in your hand in order to properly reach the trigger destroys the alignment between the radial bones of the arm and the muzzle and that shifts the felt recoil to the knuckle of the firing hand thumb.

One solution on a double action revolver is to have the face of the trigger polished so that your finger slides across the face of it. A trigger with serrations in the face of it will stop your finger from sliding across as you press the trigger and cause the muzzle to pull to the strong side.

Another solution is smaller grips that allow you to have the proper length of pull so that you can press the trigger straight back.

I would recommend trying several revolver and grip combinations until you find one that fits you right.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Shooting any handgun well starts with the grip and the grip starts with proper fit. To check the fit of any handgun:

A. Make a "V" with the strong hand (the "V" is between the index finger and thumb) with the arm extended away from the body.

B. Set an Unloaded handgun in the "V" aligning the barrel with the radial bones of the arm, then establish a one handed firing grip.

C. Find a safe aiming point.

D. Bring the handgun into the line of sight, trigger finger straight. Point the handgun at the aiming point. The muzzle should point naturally at the aiming point and the sights should be naturally aligned. The sights should naturally align when the radial bones of the arm are aligned with the muzzle.

E. Place your trigger finger on the face of the trigger. If you are using a double action handgun the trigger finger is placed in to about the first joint of the finger. If you have to rotate the handgun to accomplish this, the gun is too large for your hand.

Rotating the gun in your hand in order to properly reach the trigger destroys the alignment between the radial bones of the arm and the muzzle and that shifts the felt recoil to the knuckle of the firing hand thumb.

One solution on a double action revolver is to have the face of the trigger polished so that your finger slides across the face of it. A trigger with serrations in the face of it will stop your finger from sliding across as you press the trigger and cause the muzzle to pull to the strong side.

Another solution is smaller grips that allow you to have the proper length of pull so that you can press the trigger straight back.

I would recommend trying several revolver and grip combinations until you find one that fits you right.

I actually did that but will do it again paying very careful attention next time I go to the range, so I can report exact results back. (I was planning to go today but I think my hand needs another day of rest first.)

Is there an equally reliable way to know if the gun/grip is too SMALL, aside from it wiggling all around? Because after about 15 minutes of shooting the instructor said the Smith one was too small and I did shoot better with the Hogue, which is bigger, but (possibly from inexperience) I had no idea the Smith one was too small until I tried the Hogue.

 

[old lady new shooter]

I mostly agree with RC, but wouldn't want to go so far as to discourage you from looking into a quality action job if you were thinking of it.

Lightening the spring can lead to reliability issue, but not automatically so. Smoothing of the action by a good 'smith can make an action feel lighter. And a little lightening the action can make a big difference without getting into reliability issues. J-frames are tougher to tune without loss of reliability, since, because of their size, they lack the mechanical advantages of the larger frames.

I wasn't actually thinking of it, someone here mentioned it and it occurred to me that maybe there was a downside, so I asked about that. The 686 was OK as is, a little lighter would make things smoother but I definitely wouldn't want to do something to the gun that might make it less reliable. Am I wrong in thinking that strengthening my finger will equally make it smoother?

 

[MrBorland]

Am I wrong in thinking that strengthening my finger will equally make it smoother?

When starting out shooting a DA revolver, the trigger's gonna feel very heavy. By extension, it'll feel less so as your trigger finger gets stronger and you get used to the DA trigger. And it may feel a little smoother once you're not struggling with it and your finger develops the necessary fine motor control.

If you get to the point you feel you're not progressing beyond "struggling", though, I wouldn't rule out a good action job. Again, it's possible to improve a revolver's action without compromising reliability. A good action job includes smoothening of all the interacting surfaces, and a smooth trigger can feel lighter than it really is. I'd take "smooth" over "light" any day.

 

[Jeff White]

There is a very simple technique you can use to work your trigger finger and the best thing about it, is that it requires no equipment, not even your weapon and you can do it anywhere.

Hold your strong hand out with your fingers spread. Drop your thumb down. Now take your index finger and put it against your thumbnail (like it was the trigger) and press.

You will notice that the other three fingers will contract. This natural "clenching" of your fingers is what you want to train your hand not to do. When your entire hand clenches as you press the trigger it imparts movement into the muzzle, pulling your sights out of alignment.

Concentrate on pressing your thumbnail without moving the other 3 fingers. Soon you will be able to press the trigger without moving the rest of your fingers.

Jim Crews (don't know if he's still actively teaching) taught me that.

 

[MrBorland]

Concentrate on pressing your thumbnail without moving the other 3 fingers.

I like it. Very eye opening. Thanks for the tip.

 

[old lady new shooter]

When starting out shooting a DA revolver, the trigger's gonna feel very heavy. By extension, it'll feel less so as your trigger finger gets stronger and you get used to the DA trigger. And it may feel a little smoother once you're not struggling with it and your finger develops the necessary fine motor control.

If you get to the point you feel you're not progressing beyond "struggling", though, I wouldn't rule out a good action job. Again, it's possible to improve a revolver's action without compromising reliability. A good action job includes smoothening of all the interacting surfaces, and a smooth trigger can feel lighter than it really is. I'd take "smooth" over "light" any day.

Actually what I noticed was that the trigger went back smoothly to the point where it was actually going to fire the gun but it took a little extra pressure to do the actual firing. Being that I don't really know anything about the intricacies of how a gun works I thought that seemed logical, is that not how it's supposed to be? Would that go away with a "smoothening" job?

 

[MrBorland]

That's called "stacking" - the mechanical build-up of pull weight just before the trigger breaks. Stacking (a hardware issue) is not to be confused with "staging" (a software issue), which is the pause in the trigger pull the shooter might do about the same point, whether the trigger stacks or not, though stacking certainly encourages staging.

IMO, the trigger pull should be consistent through the break, and one shouldn't stage it, either. IMO, a good S&W trigger shouldn't stack, and it's something someone who knows what they're doing can fix.

 

[old lady new shooter]

There is a very simple technique you can use to work your trigger finger and the best thing about it, is that it requires no equipment, not even your weapon and you can do it anywhere.

Hold your strong hand out with your fingers spread. Drop your thumb down. Now take your index finger and put it against your thumbnail (like it was the trigger) and press.

You will notice that the other three fingers will contract. This natural "clenching" of your fingers is what you want to train your hand not to do. When your entire hand clenches as you press the trigger it imparts movement into the muzzle, pulling your sights out of alignment.

Concentrate on pressing your thumbnail without moving the other 3 fingers. Soon you will be able to press the trigger without moving the rest of your fingers.

Jim Crews (don't know if he's still actively teaching) taught me that.

That's very interesting. I just tried it. With the fingers apart and out straight and trying not to move them I was able to hold the middle finger still but the ring finger and pinky move. Together and straight all three of them move. Together and curled if I really concentrate I can keep them from moving. Then I thought, waitaminnit, on a revolver I'm supposed to press with the first joint, not the fingertip... doing it that way I can keep them all still, but it requires a lot of concentration, also I feel the long skinny muscle on top of my forearm when doing it this way.

OK, so I have to practice this until I can do it without having to consciously think about it, correct?

 

[old lady new shooter]

That's called "stacking" - the mechanical build-up of pull weight just before the trigger breaks. Stacking (a hardware issue) is not to be confused with "staging" (a software issue), which is the pause in the trigger pull the shooter might do about the same point, whether the trigger stacks or not, though stacking certainly encourages staging.

IMO, the trigger pull should be consistent through the break, and one shouldn't stage it, either. IMO, a good S&W trigger shouldn't stack, and it's something someone who knows what they're doing can fix.

This is really good to know, thank you so much. I think it must adversely affect the accuracy because probably the little extra push moves the muzzle.

This was a rental gun, when I get my own if it does that I'll know it can be eliminated.

 

[MrBorland]

I think it must adversely affect the accuracy because probably the little extra push moves the muzzle.

You are correct.

It's tempting to think that staging the trigger (with or without stack) ought to give the best accuracy, but it usually ain't so. Instead, it invites the shooter to "time" the shot, which is not only futile, it usually causes the shooter to yank the trigger when they re-start the pull and/or when their brain screams "now!!"

 

[J-Bar]

Please, somebody show this dear lady what a good trigger feels like!

If you know other revolver shooters, please ask them if they have had their revolver tuned, and ask them if you can see what a difference it makes.

My niece had an opportunity to try my wife's S&W Model 36 recently, after enduring her husband's .380 semi-auto at the range. The smile and look of awe on her face after dry firing the 36 a few times was priceless. She turned to her husband and said, "I like THAT!"

 

[9mmepiphany]

olns- if you're ever up north, in the Sacramento area, I'll be happy to show you what a good revolver trigger feels like.

But I have to warn you, you'll be spoiled for any other stock trigger

 

[old lady new shooter]

olns- if you're ever up north, in the Sacramento area, I'll be happy to show you what a good revolver trigger feels like.

But I have to warn you, you'll be spoiled for any other stock trigger

Now you've piqued my curiousity... you write "any other stock trigger", does that mean you have a particular model revolver whose trigger is great out of the box? If so, what model is it?

 

[old lady new shooter]

Please, somebody show this dear lady what a good trigger feels like!

If you know other revolver shooters, please ask them if they have had their revolver tuned, and ask them if you can see what a difference it makes.

My niece had an opportunity to try my wife's S&W Model 36 recently, after enduring her husband's .380 semi-auto at the range. The smile and look of awe on her face after dry firing the 36 a few times was priceless. She turned to her husband and said, "I like THAT!"

I have no idea what revolver I fired at the original class I took but I don't remember even noticing anything about the trigger, so it must have been quite smooth. Looking at pictures the one that looks most how I remember that one is the model 10.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I should have left out the word "other"

Once you get into tuned revolver triggers, it is pretty hard to be satisfied with out-of-the-box triggers.

I don't think I have any stock revolvers. The best out-of-the-box I've felt in the last 5-6 years has been the Ruger LCR

 

[old lady new shooter]

You are correct.

It's tempting to think that staging the trigger (with or without stack) ought to give the best accuracy, but it usually ain't so. Instead, it invites the shooter to "time" the shot, which is not only futile, it usually causes the shooter to yank the trigger when they re-start the pull and/or when their brain screams "now!!"

BTW, last night I stumbled on your youtube video of dryfiring with a coin on the barrel, I am way impressed. Can't wait to get my gun so I can practice this.

 

[Jeff White]

OK, so I have to practice this until I can do it without having to consciously think about it, correct?

Yes, but it's easy practice that you can do anywhere.

 

[MrBorland]

BTW, last night I stumbled on your youtube video of dryfiring with a coin on the barrel, I am way impressed. Can't wait to get my gun so I can practice this.

Thanks. I was stuck at home recovering from back surgery, so I thought it'd be fun to try.

The drill is normally done with the coin sitting flat, which is a good way to start, especially if you're dry firing with 2 hands and holding the gun extended, as you'd normally shoot.

Doing it on edge will take more practice, a lot of relaxation, and a good trigger*. Maybe lay off the coffee, too.


* I did Part 1 with a stock 3" Model 65 that's got a rare gem of a factory trigger - evidence that a trigger doesn't really need to be "light" to be good.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Thanks. I was stuck at home recovering from back surgery, so I thought it'd be fun to try.

The drill is normally done with the coin sitting flat, which is a good way to start, especially if you're dry firing with 2 hands and holding the gun extended, as you'd normally shoot.

Doing it on edge will take more practice, a lot of relaxation, and a good trigger*. Maybe lay off the coffee, too.


* I did Part 1 with a stock 3" Model 65 that's got a rare gem of a factory trigger - evidence that a trigger doesn't really need to be "light" to be good.

Don't see model 65 on the S&W site, is that a discontinued one?

 

[Jim Watson]

Re: "Tuned" revolver actions.
Too many people think that an "action job" on a double action revolver requires only installing weaker springs. But the factory put those springs in for reliable operation with the roughest parts the inspector will pass and the hardest primers on the market.

A professional action job will include smoothing all moving contact surfaces AND making sure they are engaging at the optimum angle for camming and leverage. THEN the springs can be reduced because the mechanical resistance is reduced. One shop, Apex, has five different action jobs, depending on the application.


S&W Model 65 is a K frame stainless fixed sight .357 Magnum. Available on the secondary market, it is a fine general purpose revolver ... if you can see the sights. Paint can help that. Or look for a Model 66 with adjustable sights.