Sport Pistol or Win 244

[Dudedog]

Getting ready to order some powder (my usual favorite for 9mm WSF)and was thinking about trying one of these two.
I have seen some favorable comments on Sport Pistol but not much/anything on 244.
Has anybody had a chance to use 244?
If so how did you like it?

(don't know why I want to add another flavor, still haven't had a chance to test my last new flavor Silhouette)

One of the joys of loading 9mm, lots of things work! Of course the other side of the coin is will something I haven't tried work better than what I am using.

 

[ray15]

No experience with 244, but I have been playing with Sport Pistol. This is 135gr. but I'm sure 124 would be as sweet. Crazy low Sd and spread at several charge weights. It burns clean, but not as much cleaner than other powders as reports may suggest. Metering is amazingly good, and it's cheap. I'm pretty sure you would like it.

9mm Luger/P10-C
135gr. xtreme plated HP 0.355"
CCI SPP/WIN
OAL - 1.08"
moderate taper crimp
---------------------------------
4.2gr. Alliant Sport Pistol
# FPS
9 1035
8 1049
7 1046
6 1041
5 1043
4 1046
3 1036
2 1050
1 1031
Average: 1041.9 FPS
SD: 6.6 FPS
Min: 1031 FPS
Max: 1050 FPS
Spread: 19 FPS
---------------------------------
4.1gr. Alliant Sport Pistol
# FPS
10 1026
9 1034
8 1036
7 1036
6 1044
5 1044
4 1037
3 1035
2 1047
1 1032
Average: 1037.1 FPS
SD: 6.3 FPS
Min: 1026 FPS
Max: 1047 FPS
Spread: 21 FPS
---------------------------------
3.9gr. Alliant Sport Pistol
# FPS
10 990
9 996
8 986
7 1004
6 997
5 999
4 984
3 993
2 988
1 989
Average: 992.6 FPS
SD: 6.3 FPS
Min: 984 FPS
Max: 1004 FPS
Spread: 20 FPS

 

[vaalpens]

I would say just order both and do a full comparison test for us.

W-244 intrigued me when it came out since it is one of the faster powders with 357sig load data. The powder just never showed up locally, and when SportPistol showed up I decided to try SportPistol first. I don't think you can go wrong with either one of them, but SportPistol is more marketed to those doing competition shooting, so maybe that means something.

Politicians would be proud of me today with my non-answer answer.

 

[Walkalong]

I have never seen any W-244, and have only done one test with Sport Pistol, but it shows promise.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I have not seen any W244 either but I want to try it. I still haven't tried the pound of W572 I have. I have a feeling W572 will be better in the 9mm than W244 because of their reported relative speeds but we will see.

 

[fxvr5]

I've shot a little 244 in 9mm Luger. Velocities are close to published speeds. Accuracy was good with Hornady JHP bullets.

I haven't shot enough for a full evaluation, but results so far are positive. Same experience with Sport Pistol.

 

[dave333]

I recently got a lb of 244 and sport pistol along with a couple other powders to try. Have not shot much at all but in the limited testing I have done 244 has been more accurate than sport pistol using two different guns. Not conclusive or scientific but must say I wouldn't hesitate to go with 244. The same charge weight of 244 and sport pistol under a 124gr coated lead bullet showed 244 running about 10 FPS faster on average than sport pistol. Bottom line, they both seem very good, I would probably buy whichever one I found cheaper.

Side note, I got a lb of Vectan BA 9 1/2 at the same time and probably prefer it over either 244 or sport pistol, but I believe they are all so close to each other in performance it really wont matter which one you stick with.

 

[ray15]

Bottom line, they both seem very good, I would probably buy whichever one I found cheaper.

One possibly differentiating factor for some buyers - revolver cartridges. I've tried Sport Pistol in 38 special, and it's a disaster. It works well for small-capacity semi-auto cartridges, but the reason they only have lead data for the revolver calibers is you're likely to stick a bullet with plated or jacketed due to the ignition issues. 244 is touted as being good for 38 special, so it likely is better than Sport Pistol there. Looks like something to try, as I'm always looking for stuff that works well in 38 special.

 

[Dudedog]

ArchAngelCD
I tried W572 and for me it was just ok, hopefully for you it will work out better for you.
Looked like it would offer good vels on the top side but my loads came in quite a bit slower than published data.
I understand of course that published data is just what they got in their tests, but with other powders for example HP38, WSF, Universal, CFE-P my results were close to the published #s
No pressure signs with W572 at MAX listed charges but still a bit on the slow side vel wise for me compared to say MAX charges of CFE-P.

Decisions, Decisions
Thinking something a bit slower than HP38 and a hair faster than WSF might be the cats meow for me.
Unique falls there but don't care for the way it meters, PP does to but it's flashy, Universal worked great for me with lead or coated lead, not so great with plated.
Now that I have switched to the RMR MPR jacketed I may need to revisit Universal.
( I am perfectly happy with WSF but I never would have tried it if it wasn't for the powder shortage a while back, tired it and found a new favorite, so you never know until you try)
But since we have two new powders they must be better right?


I may just go about it scientifically and flip a coin.

 

[vaalpens]

Thinking something a bit slower than HP38 and a hair faster than WSF might be the cats meow for me.
Unique falls there but don't care for the way it meters, PP does to but it's flashy, Universal worked great for me with lead or coated lead, not so great with plated.

You are looking for something very specific so it should not be that difficult to make a decision.

I like PP in 9mm, but it is not a powder you want to use. BE-86 is a hair slower than Unique, and more than a hair faster than PP. Are you looking for something slower than BE-86?

 

[Dudedog]

I would be looking for something for about 128 to 130 PF match loads with a 124gr bullet.
Currently happy with my WSF load but there is always the hhmm wonder if this might work better.....
(so I am not really looking for anything other than to take care of some money that's burning a hole in my wallet, taxes weren't painful enough)
I haven't used any PP in a long time might be time to revisit it and BE86 again now that I have switched to jacketed from plated.
Lots of people like Titegroup or faster powders for there minor PF match loads but I just prefer the way something a little slower feels when shooting it.
For example to me WSF feels less snappy than HP38 when loaded to the same velocity. In theory the WSF load has more recoil because of the larger weight of powder,
but to me it just "feels" softer.


Sigh, so many things to try so little time.....

 

[vaalpens]

I think every cartridge is different when it comes to feel of recoil when comparing powders. The more current feel of recoil I have is in 45acp. Obviously I have not tested all of the powders at the same velocity, but following was my impression of the recoil feel for each powder:
Bullseye, HP38 and SportPistol at around the same velocity: Bullseye gave me a sharper jolt, so HP38 and SportPistol felt better with preferance to SportPistol.
PowerPistol and Longshot at about the same velocity with Longshot the higher velocity. With PowerPistol I could definitely feel it, and Longshot felt softer. I need to do more workup using Longshot, but I am expecting softer shooting using Longshot.
With BE-86 and CFE Pistol I'm not sure where to place them, so I need more back to back shooting for better evaluation.

It has been a while for me doing side by side testing in 9mm, so I can only go on what I have loaded and like to shoot. It seems I always gravitate back to PP when loading up 9mm and I have mostly loads at 5.3gr and 5.6gr. The PF on these depending on the bullet are between 126pf and 132pf. I even have a 5.8gr load for a RN bullet coming in at 131pf. I enjoy shooting PP, and it seems that BE-86 just feels more powerful when getting to the same velocity. I have not done any Longshot testing in a while. Longshot will definitely give the velocity, I'm just not sure what the felt recoil is. I will load up a few for my next trip and compare the feel between PP and Longshot in 9mm.

 

[LiveLife]

to me WSF feels less snappy than HP38 when loaded to the same velocity. In theory the WSF load has more recoil because of the larger weight of powder

Although WSF load will use more powder than HP-38 to produce same velocity, felt recoil is about expansion rate of gas from powder burning and how 'energetic" the powder burn is. The slower burning WSF with slower push of gas expansion on the bullet base will produce less felt recoil.

Here is physics formula.

Force = Mass x Acceleration

So bullet mass being equal, higher rate of acceleration (change in velocity over time) from faster burning HP-38 will produce greater force measurable as muzzle climb and push on the hands/wrists we feel as "felt recoil".

looking for something for about 128 to 130 PF match loads with a 124 gr bullet.

Currently happy with my WSF load but there is always the hhmm wonder if this might work better ..... prefer the way something a little slower feels when shooting it.

Then I think you will be happier with W244 over Sport Pistol.

While Sport Pistol burn rate is comparable to W231/HP-38, I think it leans towards faster N320/Titegroup. Over the decades, match shooters have complained about marginal velocities from W231/HP-38 with 124 gr bullet and being temperature sensitive not meeting power factor requirement during cold winter match days. I believe Winchester/Hodgdon wanted a powder that produced slightly higher velocities and less temperature sensitivity and W244 was aimed at producing slightly slower powder burn for higher velocities.

As far as match shooters go on Brian Enos forum, many are claiming Sport Pistol to be N320 that burns cleaner and much cheaper. In my testing, Sport Pistol meters better than W231/HP-38 and has duplicated powder charges for reference loads that used W231/HP-38 and so far producing smaller groups (With IMR Target also producing small groups in recent comparison tests).

I look forward to testing W244 when I can find some but Sport Pistol will be a hard powder to beat.

 

[fxvr5]

Although WSF load will use more powder than HP-38 to produce same velocity, felt recoil is about expansion rate of gas from powder burning and how 'energetic" the powder burn is. The slower burning WSF with slower push of gas expansion on the bullet base will produce less felt recoil.

Here is physics formula.

So bullet mass being equal, higher rate of acceleration (change in velocity over time) from faster burning HP-38 will produce greater force measurable as muzzle climb and push on the hands/wrists we feel as "felt recoil".

Actual testing shows that slower powders that require more charge weight for the same velocity produce more recoil force and more muzzle rise. http://www.shootingtimes.com/ballistics/measure-relative-handgun-recoil/ and https://books.google.com/books?id=Y...ge&q=gunpowder and recoil brad miller&f=false

This is because more powder weight means more weight of mass ejected from the barrel. The weight of the powder is added to the formula for recoil by way of the principle of the conservation of mass, something you left out of your formula. It is explained here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil#Including_the_ejected_gas One can use a recoil calculator to calculate recoil and they require knowing the weight of the powder. http://kwk.us/recoil.html

 

[LiveLife]

I agree with your links but we are not loading to full power loads.

For minor PF loads with moderately fast vs moderately slow powders, slower powders tend to produce less felt recoil.

I won't respond further to your post in respect to Walkalong.

Peace.

 

[fxvr5]

I agree with your links but we are not loading to full power loads.

For minor PF loads with moderately fast vs moderately slow powders, slower powders tend to produce less felt recoil.

I won't respond further to your post in respect to Walkalong.

Peace.

This has nothing to do with full power loads. It is simply the physics of different powders that use different charge weights to push the same bullet to the same speed.

 

[LiveLife]

OP's words

128 to 130 PF ... with a 124gr bullet.

... to me WSF feels less snappy than HP38 when loaded to the same (128-130 PF) velocity

rcmodel used bowling ball vs your hand as an analogy to "felt recoil" which is subjective to individual shooters.

"Felt recoil" is not absolute and not measurable as different shooters may perceive the same "felt recoil" differently. There is another aspect of snappiness of recoil which adds to the actual recoil shooter experiences.

rcmodel would post faster vs slower powders was like slapping the bowling ball vs pushing the bowling ball.

IME, unless very small charges of faster powders were used, faster burning powders tended to produce more snappy recoil. It is why I prefer slower burning than W231/HP-38 for 40S&W as faster powders produce more snappy recoil where as Unique/Universal/BE-86/Power P Pistol/Herco/WSF/AutoComp/CFE Pistol and slower powders produce less snappy recoil.

So while there are empirical formulas to describe actual forces at play, how shooters perceive those forces are subjective.

However, general concensus among reloaders (Hundreds of THR members on H&R category alone) is that faster powders produce more "snappy" recoil while slower powders produce recoil that "pushes".

Peace.

 

[Dudedog]

I mentioned in my post you have to allow for the mass of additional powder but in my case we are talking about most say 1/2 a gr of powder @ 1030fps = < 1ft lb of additional energy. Of course that is assuming the powder gasses exit at the same velocity as the bullet.
It does not really matter what the numbers are WSF feels softer.
I would get a more significant number say for 12gr more powder in 7mm Rem mag at 3000fps.

 

[Walkalong]

Actual testing shows that slower powders that require more charge weight for the same velocity produce more recoil force and more muzzle rise.

True, but felt recoil is a little different than mathematical recoil, and the snappy vs a push, or:

was like slapping the bowling ball vs pushing the bowling ball.

applies. I have a .357 load with a 125 Gr bullet and N340 that is very sharp compared to my .357 load with 2400 and 158 Gr bullets. Even though overall the 2400 Gr load has more recoil, I prefer the 2400 load.

And since it is all subjective, people opinions on the same loads can differ. Math aside.

 

[LiveLife]

There is another aspect of snappiness of recoil which adds to the actual recoil shooter experiences.

felt recoil is a little different than mathematical recoil, and the snappy vs a push ... applies ... subjective, people opinions on the same loads can differ. Math aside.

I think this is key.

I believe when most people express "felt recoil" they in effect are describing how "snappy" the felt recoil is overshadowing the underlying push of the total recoil, which I think fxvr5 is trying to express with mathematical calculations links.

So totality of recoil or sum of forces pushing back away from the bullet could be greater for slower burning powder charge producing the same muzzle velocity YET subjective "snappiness" felt by the shooter may be perceived different and express less "felt recoil" for slower burning powder load.

I think I may use a disclaimer in the future when I post about "felt recoil" not being the same as "total recoil" such as this:

DISCLAIMER: I am about to post my opinion on felt recoil which is subjective snappiness of pistol recoil that may not include all the recoil forces.

fxvr5, as I already posted, I agree with calculations in the links you provided but as Walkalong posted and OP confirmed, I believe felt recoil of "snappiness" from slower burning powders is generally perceived as less compared to faster burning powders by most reloaders.

Peace.

 

[Walkalong]

For me it is a snappiness threshold, just like an overall recoil threshold. I have limits in both. They are my limits and my limits only, everyone else has their own.

My N340/125 Gr bullet load shoots like a laser, but is too sharp for me to have fun with. It would be good for hunting or something where one or two shots are required, but not fun plinking. At least not for me, maybe for others.

 

[LiveLife]

If you look at this Mythbusters slow motion video:

• At 25 second of the video, you can see bullet leaving the barrel.
• Better video at 37 second shows bullet out of the barrel and slide moving with locked barrel starting to push back on the hands
• Not until 33 second of the video you see slide slamming on the frame and causing muzzle "flip"

So "totality" of recoil is sum of:

• Initial push on the hands as bullet leaves the barrel and slide locked with barrel
• Additional push on the hands as slide slams on the frame and rotation of wrists as muzzle "flips" perceived as "snappiness"

When people express perceived "felt recoil":

• They may be primarily describing "snappiness" of slide slamming on the frame
• Which causes muzzle "flip" and rotation of wrists (sometimes accompanied by stinging/numbing of trigger finger tip if pistol rotates up too fast - Try shooting "snappy" high range+ 40S&W loads with Promo)
• The amount of muzzle "flip" and "snappiness" of felt recoil is dependent on slide velocity
• Slide velocity is dependent on powder burn rate which varies acceleration applied to the slide
• Faster the slide velocity, more perceived muzzle "flip" and "snappiness" of felt recoil
• Slower the slide velocity, less perceived muzzle "flip" and "snappiness" of felt recoil

So while empirical formulas describe the sum of all objective forces, when people describe subjective "felt recoil", they may only be describing the slide velocity slamming on the frame and muzzle "flip" which are only part of the forces and perceived differently by different people based on physical condition.

 

[fxvr5]

Contrary to what some people claim, the slide/gun starts to move before the bullet has left the barrel. The slide/gun starts to move as soon as the bullet starts to move. This is simple physics described by Newton.

http://www.recoilweb.com/when-does-the-pistol-slide-start-to-move-127274.html



This is well known.

 

[LiveLife]

I stand corrected.

I revised my post to "... video at 37 second shows bullet out of the barrel and slide moving with locked barrel starting to push back on the hands"

BUT focus of my post was on partial subjective "felt recoil" which may overshadow initial push on the hands and not account for the sum of "total recoil"

So "totality" of recoil is sum of:

• Initial push on the hands as bullet leaves the barrel and slide locked with barrel
• Additional push on the hands as slide slams on the frame and rotation of wrists as muzzle "flips" perceived as "snappiness"

 

[rfwobbly]

While Sport Pistol burn rate is comparable to W231/HP-38, I think it leans towards faster N320/Titegroup.

Since you prefer the slower WSF, you might prefer VV N330, Alliant BE-86, or Noble Sport Vectan Ba9, all of which burn as cleanly.