Stairs and how to approach them?

[horsemen61]

Ok guys I live in an apartment and while I really like it i must admit I don’t love the upper and lower levels meaning stairs so my question is if I thought someone was upstairs how do I approach the stairs, then what if I am upstairs how do I approach the stairs do I run up them at a fast as possible pace or slow down and focus on not falling or someone being at the top or bottom so what would you do?

 

[9mmepiphany]

so what would you do?

Call the police.

Stairs are some of the most difficult and dangerous areas to clear in a house or apartment. I was trained to never do it with less than 2 officers; and 3 were preferred

 

[MedWheeler]

Never run stairs unless you're skilled at it, such as if you routinely do it as part of a fitness regimen. A fall can make you a victim even if there is no aggressor present, and will increase your chances of becoming one if there is. As posted above, call police if you're concerned that someone is already poised in the stairwell seeking a victim. If not, then proceed as you have been, exercising your typically-appropriate situational awareness practices. Make eye contact with anyone you encounter in the well, but don't come across as aggressive (assertive is okay, even preferred.)

Keep your head up as high as safely practical, and avoid distractions, such as your cell phone.

Carry a tactical flashlight after dark, especially in an enclosed stairwell (carry it even during daylight hours; you never know how many of the lights in the well are working until after you enter it.)

 

[rpenmanparker]

Don’t forget that wooden stairs tend to creak more in the center of the tread. If you want to be silent, stay on the left or right edge of the tread as you carefully ascend or descend.

 

[lemaymiami]

As already noted, stairways are problematic at best.. In short anyone above you has all the advantages - you have few, if any... In fact there was a sea change on my department back when we were forced to consider and train for "officer survival" (this was during the height of the party - the cocaine cowboy era down here in south Florida...) - and I think we did a pretty good job.

In essence we quit doing building searches using officers.. Instead we'd establish a perimeter - then call out one or more canine teams for building searches - and each team was backed by a man with a shotgun (later a carbine...). Worked quite well once we got over the idea that we were going to be doing anything quickly - and we learned to handle the increased overtime that call-outs entailed. In my area (counting Dade and Broward counties together) we lost three officers a year - every year of the 22 years I was in law enforcement (none of them casualties of angry girlfriends or wives, none of them due to bad personal habits or suicides.. three a year every year - and on several occasions we lost three in a single incident....). I soon quit going to funerals...

The idea behind all of our survival training was figuring out ways to do things safely (one of our "slogans" was that John Wayne was dead - and anyone that used the kind of tactics you saw in movies - would be joining him...). There is one better way to actually negotiate hazardous stairways -but it's rarely practical since it involves figuring out how start your clearing/search operations from the top of the building, working down....then you have the high ground and the natural advantage that it provides...

After writing the above I re-read the original post and realized that I got a bit afield - so here's the advice for anyone on their own and going up or down stairs... The basics apply here, if at all possible.. Never walk around a corner without looking around it first (without being obvious..) and know your ground. If you live in a building, make a point of walking every bit of it at your leisure at a time when most are away at work. Make a point of knowing which doors are always locked - and which way each door opens (it makes a difference...). Develop a plan for how to exit a stairwell if you encounter a hazard - and trust your instincts if a place or situation seems hazardous - act on your feelings - don't allow yourself to get into any confrontation since in a stairwell there's little, if any places where you're behind solid cover... Remember at all times that in a stairwell you're at a great disadvantage and act defensively. Lastly, remember John Wayne - being in the open if gunfire is a possibility is just plain dumb...

 

[FL-NC]

Stairs are a tactical nightmare. Most people don't even begin to understand how complex they are as a tactical problem. They are even worse than hallways. For starters, you are fighting uphill, usually in an enclosed space. There are different types of stairways that all require different tactics too- internal, external, spiral, opposing, handrail spacings that offer loopholes to a shooter from above, with or without intermediate landings that come with or without intermediate access, and so on. Also consider the fact that various objects can be thrown down them with the aid of gravity. Just stand at the top of one of these, get low, and gaze down into this dead space and have someone come up the stairs, and see how often portions of there body are exposed as they ascend- no matter how thy do it. . If someone takes a hit to the lower extremity, he is going down, and presenting an obstacle to whoever else is going up behind him. We trained on stairs so much that I dreamed about it. With the aid of simmunitions, the biggest lessons learned are that there is no good way to do it (even as a highly trained team) but there are several ways to do so and prevent a slaughter. The other lesson is to avoid going up stairs if possible. During Neptune Spear (the UBL raid), the SEALS had planned to rope from their helo to the roof to gain access to the "high ground" to avoid this doomsday scenario (of course, that didn't work out, and they had to go up, fortunately they were able to pull it off). Also, US urban combat doctrine teaches that the best way for a defender to cut off stair access is to deploy a roll of concertina wire (the combat slinky) in a stairway. That will stop any stair assault dead in its tracks.It is so effective, there isn't a need to even post security at the top of the stairs. If concertina wire isn't available, broken glass scattered on the stairs will allow a shooter to know someone is coming up well in advance. Short answer? Call The police. Clearing stairs (especially uphill) is the job of a highly trained TEAM.

 

[Kleanbore]

my question is if I thought someone was upstairs how do I approach the stairs,

Don't do it.

 

[ilbob]

Ok guys I live in an apartment and while I really like it i must admit I don’t love the upper and lower levels meaning stairs so my question is if I thought someone was upstairs how do I approach the stairs, then what if I am upstairs how do I approach the stairs do I run up them at a fast as possible pace or slow down and focus on not falling or someone being at the top or bottom so what would you do?

If you think there is an intruder in your home, upstairs or downstairs, or even the same level, you are an idiot if you do not call the cops to come deal with it. Blockade yourself some place as safe as possible and call the cops. They get paid for this kind of thing. Let them earn their pay. Make sure you tell 911 where you are at. Personally if I was downstairs and thought there was an upstairs intruder I might well just leave and then call the cops, if I judged it was safe to do so.

Having said that, if you live with other people it is also quite possible that the "intruder" is someone who has a right to be there that just happens to be present when you don't expect it. If you call the cops on them you run a risk of that individual being killed by a twitchy cop.

 

[Wisco]

Don’t negotiate stairs alone if at all possible.

If you’re upstairs, above the ground level, stay ready covering the top. If you’re downstairs, main level, leave if you can safely. If you’re in a basement, just cover the stairs and wait.

I practice clearing my house and the stairs to the basement are the hardest part. I would never descend them to search - if the noise didn’t give me away, the bad guy could see my feet and legs coming first, as the stairs are open to the room.

Going up the stairs is possible, but that’s only because it’s very close to getting outside from the top of the stairs and there’s a door at the top so you know it’s clear up to there.

Each house is different and each commercial or apartment buidling is different, but there’s rarely any I look at that seem like they’d be negotiable alone in a personal survival scenario.

Grab your pistol (or long gun) and practice clearing your house. I bet you run through it 10 -20 times and get to where to feel confident overall, but every time you clear the stairs you realize the vulnerability there that doesn’t exist elsewhere in a building. Same with opening doors to maneuver and search when you’re alone.

 

[scaatylobo]

As already noted, stairways are problematic at best.. In short anyone above you has all the advantages - you have few, if any... In fact there was a sea change on my department back when we were forced to consider and train for "officer survival" (this was during the height of the party - the cocaine cowboy era down here in south Florida...) - and I think we did a pretty good job.

In essence we quit doing building searches using officers.. Instead we'd establish a perimeter - then call out one or more canine teams for building searches - and each team was backed by a man with a shotgun (later a carbine...). Worked quite well once we got over the idea that we were going to be doing anything quickly - and we learned to handle the increased overtime that call-outs entailed. In my area (counting Dade and Broward counties together) we lost three officers a year - every year of the 22 years I was in law enforcement (none of them casualties of angry girlfriends or wives, none of them due to bad personal habits or suicides.. three a year every year - and on several occasions we lost three in a single incident....). I soon quit going to funerals...

The idea behind all of our survival training was figuring out ways to do things safely (one of our "slogans" was that John Wayne was dead - and anyone that used the kind of tactics you saw in movies - would be joining him...). There is one better way to actually negotiate hazardous stairways -but it's rarely practical since it involves figuring out how start your clearing/search operations from the top of the building, working down....then you have the high ground and the natural advantage that it provides...

After writing the above I re-read the original post and realized that I got a bit afield - so here's the advice for anyone on their own and going up or down stairs... The basics apply here, if at all possible.. Never walk around a corner without looking around it first (without being obvious..) and know your ground. If you live in a building, make a point of walking every bit of it at your leisure at a time when most are away at work. Make a point of knowing which doors are always locked - and which way each door opens (it makes a difference...). Develop a plan for how to exit a stairwell if you encounter a hazard - and trust your instincts if a place or situation seems hazardous - act on your feelings - don't allow yourself to get into any confrontation since in a stairwell there's little, if any places where you're behind solid cover... Remember at all times that in a stairwell you're at a great disadvantage and act defensively. Lastly, remember John Wayne - being in the open if gunfire is a possibility is just plain dumb...

Agree and will add.

IF you think there is EVER a possibility that you will need to personally and ALONE clear your house or a building that you own or are responsible for.

PLEASE ask a friend to hide with a flashlight [ or better yet a paintball/softair gun ] and see if he can ambush you.

If as I expect ,he does = lesson learned.

Was forced to clear too many buildings ALONE as an LEO [ no backup available ] ,afterwards I was very happy to find no one.

Remember that if you do "find someone" what is your reaction,both legal and physical.

Will you shoot,is it LEGAL to shoot,and please do know that if you shoot -------------- IT WILL EFFECT YOU FOREVER.

 

[Jeff White]

Was forced to clear too many buildings ALONE as an LEO [ no backup available ] ,afterwards I was very happy to find no one.

Been there, done that, got the T shirt, it's a fact of life in rural LE. I'll say: Just don't do it!

 

[ilbob]

I have cleared a total of one building. I answered an alarm call when I was working for a security guard company. I was too young and dumb at the time realize the danger. It took me the better part of an hour to get there. The cops had already been and gone.

before cell phones and no radio support (timeframe = 1979-1980).

I did take a real close look at the exterior of the building (a warehouse for credit card receipts of all things) and found no obvious signs of entry. So I opened it up and went in and poked around for awhile. Hundreds/thousands of boxes of credit card receipts from a gasoline company. No place to hide on the shelves where the boxes were stored in a big open area.. They were floor to ceiling and packed full. Just a bathroom that the door was open and an office that was locked I did not have a key for. Another mystery false alarm.

these days I think I would pass on such a job. I am nowhere near as brave (or maybe dumb) now as I was when I was 21 or 22.

 

[4thPointOfContact]

If you're at the top of the stairs then there's no need to "clear them". Let ol' Mr Hamburgler assault your defensive position (which is doubtful) or exit the premises into the waiting arms of Officer Friendly.

If you're at the bottom of the stairs, then there's no need to "clear them" unless there's a family member in immediate danger (and how'd he get by you to Get upstairs is a fair question, I think.) Let him come to you or go out a second-story window, again into the loving arms of the police.

 

[Slamfire]

Movie tactics would have you immediately charging up the stairs, or down the stairs, guns blazing. In real life, that would get you killed.

What's the problem with calling the Cops and waiting till whomever is up stairs, decides to leave? Might be a better idea to get the heck out of there, in case they come down the stairs, guns blazing. Is it worth getting killed over a property crime?

 

[WestKentucky]

Only reason to procede is to liberate a family member under siege, or held hostage. Best way to approach in that situation is from a distance with a scoped rifle and not approach until your sure it's safe to do so...but you had better have some good, accurate explanations for your actions because they WILL be questioned, and you WILL need a legal team. Best answer for all other situations is simple...don't.

 

[1911 guy]

I fully agree with everyone else. There is no good way to do stairs, just some methods suck less than others. But they all suck. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional. At one time in my life I was trained in structure clearing, etc. The only way I'd consider it today is if a loved one was in immediate danger. Any other scenario involves a phone, holding position if needed, but preferably removing myself from the area.

 

[Water Garden]

Only reason to procede is to liberate a family member under siege, or held hostage

you left out the words ..deploy, exfiltrate and recon. LOL



To the OP.. if it were me, I would not go creeping around my house trying to find an intruder. I would hole up in one room ( look / listen/ call authorities if I were confident someone was in my house) and prepare to defend it. If I had family to protect on the upper level, I would prepare myself for the fight, get my head on straight and just go. I see no advantageous way to get upstairs if I am alone. Moving around alone is terrible strategics no matter how much of a secret squirrel a person may be but if I simply have to do it, I will just get on with it while making an effort to spend the least amount of time in a bad spot.

 

[lemaymiami]

I mentioned this earlier then noted that most replies related to houses with upstairs areas... In a high rise, apartment building - or something similar -the first item on my defensive agenda would be to thoroughly walk through every floor (top to bottom - particularly including any basement or parking areas....) to see exactly what your possible defensive environment might be. No we're not talking urban combat here - just that knowing which doors are locked and which ones are not (whether they're supposed to be or not...) - and which way each door opens are the kind of basic info you can make decisions with long before that might actually be needed in an emergency (and here I'm not necessarily talking about any potential self-defense situation - a fire or similar emergency in a multi-story building is very bad news for anyone trapped inside...).

Along with that physical inspection I'd want to know where every elevator is in that building (whether open to the occupants or just a service elevator) and each and every exit/entrance to your building... Lastly I'd want to know by actually observing for a bit whether your fellow residents observe and comply with any controlled access doors into your building. Building security is most often breached by the actual residents (doors left propped open for convenience, etc).

I was taught long ago the basics of physical security and that was reinforced during a career in law enforcement but none of this is rocket science and anyone can greatly improve their security by starting with a good understanding of the actual surroundings when living in a high rise situation. I've long believed that your actual tactics in an emergency or confrontation are far more important than your weapons. Decisions made as to whether to bunker down and wait for help, get moving and evacuate, or stand up and confront a danger... will be faced by anyone under threat and your responses will have a lot to do with whatever the outcome is.

I would never willingly choose to live in a high rise or apartment building ever again - but there was a time when I lived in those kind of situations - as many do. Do your "homework" long before it's needed and you'll be head and shoulders ahead of the crowd. I can't imagine being caught in a big resort like folks were in that Las Vegas incident - and not knowing how and where to exit or seek safety when you couldn't tell where the threat was coming from. To me - that's the stuff of nightmares...

 

[ilbob]

Only reason to procede is to liberate a family member under siege, or held hostage. Best way to approach in that situation is from a distance with a scoped rifle and not approach until your sure it's safe to do so...but you had better have some good, accurate explanations for your actions because they WILL be questioned, and you WILL need a legal team. Best answer for all other situations is simple...don't.

Charging up the stairs is likely to get either you or your family member killed, or both. If you need a scoped rifle to shoot 10 or 15 feet up a staircase, perhaps you need some range time. Unless there is some immediacy involved, best bet is to call the cops and let them do what they are paid to do. I cannot imagine a situation that did not involve a complete breakdown of law and order where trying this on your own makes any sense.

 

[Water Garden]

I mentioned this earlier then noted that most replies related to houses with upstairs areas... In a high rise, apartment building - or something similar -the first item on my defensive agenda would be to thoroughly walk through every floor (top to bottom - particularly including any basement or parking areas....) to see exactly what your possible defensive environment might be. No we're not talking urban combat here - just that knowing which doors are locked and which ones are not (whether they're supposed to be or not...) - and which way each door opens are the kind of basic info you can make decisions with long before that might actually be needed in an emergency (and here I'm not necessarily talking about any potential self-defense situation - a fire or similar emergency in a multi-story building is very bad news for anyone trapped inside...).

This kind of information is good but it is also very fleeting when you do not control the space. If you do not actively control or are in a position to maintain control of the space, you cannot likely rely on the information except as a momentary consideration. When dealing with the public and public spaces, people are routinely going to forego security for convenience. Door , gates, elevators or sally ports being propped, jammed or intentionally left unlocked or simply found danaged and neglected is going to be commonplace. Supply, Maintenance, Storage, Mechanical, Service or logistical areas may be open and accessible today and not tomorrow or perhaps not even an hour from now. So unless you are going to make this assessment of your high rise apt building multiple times a day, your assessment can be unreliable towards any sort of ongoing plan. Generally speaking, I agree that people should know their way around and remain apprised of the exits, I was not speaking against basic awareness but rather the use of fleeting information towards anything other than a momentary plan.

Building security is most often breached by the actual residents (doors left propped open for convenience, etc).

I disagree, .. I think that [most] security breaches are forced or achieved by direct subderfuge and not by finding the one open door in the place.

I've long believed that your actual tactics in an emergency or confrontation are far more important than your weapons.

I agree that the strongest or best equipped combatants do not always win the fight. I think it is fair to say that tactics can be the prevailing factor but at the same time, it substantially depends on the circumstances. Tactics and strategics can certainly overcome some advantages, some capabilities in "some circumstances" but would disagree with the suggestion that tactics are "far more important" as a broad proclamation.

 

[ilbob]

I disagree, .. [most] security breaches are forced or achieved by direct subderfuge not by finding the one open door in the place.

Years ago I used to work as a security guard. Can't tell you how many times we would find a door propped open because people w/o keys could go out a door but not back in and they wanted to come back in. But I can't recall a single time when someone who didn't belong there took advantage of the propped open door as usually they were in places that were not real accessible to the public.

 

[Jeff White]

I disagree, .. I think that [most] security breaches are forced or achieved by direct subterfuge and not by finding the one open door in the place.

25 years in LE and most "break ins" were not really break ins but open doors or unlocked doors. People are careless and it costs them. It's really that simple. You have no idea the number of times I've heard; "I didn't think I needed to lock it here."

 

[JTHunter]

Boy ! This discussion makes me like my single-story even more !

 

[Water Garden]

25 years in LE and most "break ins" were not really break ins but open doors or unlocked doors. People are careless and it costs them. It's really that simple. You have no idea the number of times I've heard; "I didn't think I needed to lock it here."

Perhaps your experience is unique.. I have my own experience to draw upon and I politely disagree. I have never found the unlocked door or window to be the primary method of entry in the majority of crimes relating to or having elements of burglary. Certainly there are varying trends and circumstances all around the Country, nevertheless I find it odd.

 

[Jeff White]

I have never found the unlocked door or window to be the primary method of entry in the majority of crimes relating to or having elements of burglary.

Never???? I think maybe your experience is unique. Most of the officers I've talked to from all over the country at training events and schools shared similar experiences to mine. Maybe people are better at locking their stuff up in the rural South but in rural south central Illinois people don't lock their doors and then they wonder why they are a victim. Does your state require forced entry as an element of the crime of burglary? Illinois doesn't require forced entry, just entry with the intent to commit a felony or theft:

(720 ILCS 5/Art. 19 heading) ARTICLE 19. BURGLARY
(720 ILCS 5/19-1) (from Ch. 38, par. 19-1)
Sec. 19-1. Burglary.
(a) A person commits burglary when without authority he or she knowingly enters or without authority remains within a building, housetrailer, watercraft, aircraft, motor vehicle, railroad car, or any part thereof, with intent to commit therein a felony or theft. This offense shall not include the offenses set out in Section 4-102 of the Illinois Vehicle Code.