Standard cartridge loads

[carl73]

Trough the years i've learned that there were 2 básic types of powder , black and smokless, now, i know that every modern cartridge uses smokless powder.
Recently i Heard that some ammo like Magnum cartridges use different kind of powder, i can't find any info on that, non of the ammo manufacturing companies states what kind of powder they use either in their boxes nor their web site specs.
So Is it true cartridges like .44 special and .44 Magnum use different kind of powder or it's just the ammount?

 

[.38 Special]

Yes, there are dozens and dozens of different smokeless powders. The primary feature is burn rate. Some burn very quickly and others quite slowly - though all of them are measured in milliseconds.

Very generally speaking, smaller and/or lower pressure cartridges will use small amount of fast powders, while bigger and/or larger cartridges will use larger amounts of slower powder. That's a huge generalization and I am sure folks will be along to provide exceptions, but it will give you the basic idea.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

The first thing to remember is that unlike black powder, there are many different smokeless powders. With black powder the main difference is the granule size. That's why you have 1f (for cannons), 2f (for rifles), 3f (for revolvers), and 4f (for priming flintlocks). That is a general idea of what they're used for. There is some crossover.

With smokeless there are dozens of different powders that are all smokeless powder.
Sometimes, the only difference between a round like .44 special compared to .44 magnum is the amount of powder used. For example Alliant's Unique can be used for both cartridges and the only difference would be that the .44 magnum takes more of it.
Other powders have different burn rates. Magnum powders burn slower than non-magnum powders for the most part. The slowest powders that are used by big magnum rounds are not suited to most non-magnum rounds.

This is a very general overview.
The important thing is that if you are going to handload your own ammunition, to follow a reloading manual to the letter and only use published load data that has been tested under controlled conditions and the safe limits have been determined.

Hope this helps.

 

[carl73]

Hope this helps.[/QUOTE]
Yes it does, thank You, as i'm not interested in Reloading but as why ammo manufacturers doesnt specify what kind of powder they use un their cartridges? Even saami charts only count bullet weights but never mention powder types.
This makes me think that whatever powder Is used it doesnt matter, if it Burns fast or slow doesnt make any significant difference

 

[AJC1]

Hope this helps.

Yes it does, thank You, as i'm not interested in Reloading but as why ammo manufacturers doesnt specify what kind of powder they use un their cartridges? Even saami charts only count bullet weights but never mention powder types.
This makes me think that whatever powder Is used it doesnt matter, if it Burns fast or slow doesnt make any significant difference[/QUOTE]

They order the powder they want and buy in huge bulk. Canister powders in books are for reloaders and they are not limited like we are.

 

[Driftertank]

Yep, as AJC1 pointed out, manufacturers don't always use "canister grade" powders...they get their powder in boxcar-sized lots, and sometimes custom blended for a specific application.

With smokeless powders, the primary base is usually a nitrocellulose, though there are also double-base types that use a mix of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin for a base, and occasionally even triple base, which introduces nitroguanidine, but that's USUALLY reserved for applications bigger than small arms (like artillery). In addition to the base compounds, though, various compounds and surface treatments can be added to the powder to modify burn rate, reduce smoke and flash, reduce fouling, etc.

Even if a manufacturer does use an "off the shelf" formulation, though, there's incentives to keep the specifics of their loads as a trade secret; after all, if a handloader can duplicate a favorite factory load for less money, there's less incentive to buy their ammo. Additionally, trying to duplicate a factory load but substituting a different case, primer, bullet, etc. can potentially lead to different, possibly dangerous, pressure variations.

 

[earlthegoat2]

This is, once again, an over generalization but manufacturers really only worry about FPS with a particular bullet, keeping it under SAAMI max pressure, and potential pressure spikes when researching, developing, and manufacturing ammo. What powder and how much it takes to get there can be trade secret after those other criteria are met as it doesn’t matter to the end results for the consumer and there is apparently no legislation for them to provide that data such as how food manufacturers must provide an ingredient list (but not the amounts of said ingredients)

 

[Remington1911]

This is, once again, an over generalization but manufacturers really only worry about FPS with a particular bullet, keeping it under SAAMI max pressure, and potential pressure spikes when researching, developing, and manufacturing ammo. What powder and how much it takes to get there can be trade secret after those other criteria are met as it doesn’t matter to the end results for the consumer and there is apparently no legislation for them to provide that data such as how food manufacturers must provide an ingredient list (but not the amounts of said ingredients)

With food generally they are in order, so stuff at the top of the list of "stuff in it" is of higher %. Why you generally see water listed so high.

 

[Remington1911]

Hope this helps.

Yes it does, thank You, as i'm not interested in Reloading but as why ammo manufacturers doesnt specify what kind of powder they use un their cartridges? Even saami charts only count bullet weights but never mention powder types.
This makes me think that whatever powder Is used it doesnt matter, if it Burns fast or slow doesnt make any significant difference[/QUOTE]

It can make a difference, the fast or slow powders. It really does depend on that specific cartridges use. I know not your subject but a perfect example is the 3006 rounds that are "garand safe".

The way the gun is made if the powder is too much it can be very hard on the "automatic" parts in the rifle that make it all work. It can bend and even bust those parts. The safe loads, are generally slower, so it is more "easy" I guess I will say at getting those parts moving.

In many reloading manuals it does specify "garand loads"

You said you are not interested in reloading, so I tried to use some general terms, I did not intend to "talk down" to you, I just don't know how much you know.

 

[CQB45ACP]

With food generally they are in order, so stuff at the top of the list of "stuff in it" is of higher %. Why you generally see water listed so high.

Until recently, I would’ve said history tells us there is NO WAY anyone will ever reveal what’s inside powder mixtures regardless of the reason.

Some of you old timers will remember in the late 90s there was an unsuccessful push by Federal law enforcement agencies (FBI, ATF, USPS primarily) some of their benefactors on the Hill, and the Clinton Administration to require powder manufacturers to add taggants to their powders to facilitate investigations into bombings. At the direction of Congress, the National Academies of Science studied its viability and advisability.

There was a firestorm (pun intended) of protests against this proposal in part because it was contemporaneous with the Brady Bill’s Instant check system development. That’s all we needed—registered guns and powder. A database of intentions if ever there was one.

Fortunately for the anti-taggant side, the Academies recommended against adding taggants at that time at least in part due to very few actual bombing investigations for which taggants would be helpful and the unproven nature of taggants themselves.

Switzerland did at that time require taggants in powder produced there. (Who knew powder was even produced there?)

Powder companies were livid at the thought and the Academies actually used Alliant’s Red, Blue, and Green dots as “evidence” adding taggants would cause no great hardship. Apparently bomb investigators actually used/use the “dots” in residue to help their investigations.

Anyway, sorry for the history lesson, it’s based on memory, and I’m sure many of you can shoot holes in it. (Pun intended again.)

 

[Remington1911]

Until recently, I would’ve said history tells us there is NO WAY anyone will ever reveal what’s inside powder mixtures regardless of the reason.

Some of you old timers will remember in the late 90s there was an unsuccessful push by Federal law enforcement agencies (FBI, ATF, USPS primarily) some of their benefactors on the Hill, and the Clinton Administration to require powder manufacturers to add taggants to their powders to facilitate investigations into bombings. At the direction of Congress, the National Academies of Science studied its viability and advisability.

There was a firestorm (pun intended) of protests against this proposal in part because it was contemporaneous with the Brady Bill’s Instant check system development. That’s all we needed—registered guns and powder. A database of intentions if ever there was one.

Fortunately for the anti-taggant side, the Academies recommended against adding taggants at that time at least in part due to very few actual bombing investigations for which taggants would be helpful and the unproven nature of taggants themselves.

Switzerland did at that time require taggants in powder produced there. (Who knew powder was even produced there?)

Powder companies were livid at the thought and the Academies actually used Alliant’s Red, Blue, and Green dots as “evidence” adding taggants would cause no great hardship. Apparently bomb investigators actually used/use the “dots” in residue to help their investigations.

Anyway, sorry for the history lesson, it’s based on memory, and I’m sure many of you can shoot holes in it. (Pun intended again.)

Never stopped them before.

 

[reddog81]

Powder used makes a huge difference. Powders that manufacturers use for .38 Special will be completely different from what would be used in any rifle cartridge. There can be a lot of overlap for similar cartridges. For example .40 S&W and 9mm can use many of the same powders. .308 and .30-06 can use similar powders, but not the same powders as .40 S&W.

Why would manufacturers list what powder they use? Like mentioned above ammo manufacturers might receive/produce powder in huge lots and can tailor a load based upon that lots characteristics. The powder will probably be similar to commercially available powder but not the same. Listing the powder used will help no one.

Reloaders have a large number of powders available because there are small difference between them. Even within cartridges there are powders used for specific applications. In 9mm the powder used for a subsonic load can be different than the powder used for a 1400 FPS 105 grain bullet load. I probably have over a dozen powders that work well in handgun cartridges and a dozen that work well in rifle cartridges. I also have a handful of powders that work well in both magnum handgun cartridges(.357 and .44 Mag.) and lower pressure rifle cartridges like .300 AAC Blackout and 450 Bushmaster.

There are some powders that can work across the whole spectrum of cartridges but they generally aren't the best at any one application. Powders like Unique can work in .32 ACP, .38 Special, 9mm, .30-06 or .450 Bushmaster. However the loads you can create in 450 Bushmaster and .30-06 will be limited to very light loads in the 1,000 up to maybe 1,500ish FPS range and no manufacturer would sell loads like this as they would not function appropriately in semi-auto guns.

 

[.308 Norma]

So Is it true cartridges like .44 special and .44 Magnum use different kind of powder or it's just the ammount?

Yes, it's true. And sometimes yes, "it's just the amount."

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Powders that manufacturers use for .38 Special will be completely different from what would be used in any rifle cartridge.

This is true the vast majority of the time, but as with most things there are exceptions to this as well.
Unique is a powder that is often used for .38 special, but there is also tested load data for it to be used with bottleneck rifle cartridges and cast lead bullets.
Another reason to stick to published data only.

Also, it is very common for a powder to be labeled and data available for both shotgun and handgun applications. Unique, Red Dot, Green Dot, Blue Dot, Universal, Universal Clays, etc. There are many more, this is just what comes to mind immediately.

 

[reddog81]

This is true the vast majority of the time, but as with most things there are exceptions to this as well.
Unique is a powder that is often used for .38 special, but there is also tested load data for it to be used with bottleneck rifle cartridges and cast lead bullets.
Another reason to stick to published data only.

Also, it is very common for a powder to be labeled and data available for both shotgun and handgun applications. Unique, Red Dot, Green Dot, Blue Dot, Universal, Universal Clays, etc. There are many more, this is just what comes to mind immediately.

I addressed the fact that some handgun powders can be used in rifle rounds for reduced power loads. I've never heard of any manufacturers are using Unique(or any handgun powder) to create factory loads. Your average factory .30-06 load is something like a 150 grain bullet going 2,900 FPS. A 150 grain bullet doing 1,200 FPS isn't really much of a .30-06 load and is more akin to a .357 Magnum load.

 

[Bazoo]

For the OP. There are many varieties of powder. They are generally arranged in 3 groups. Handgun, shotgun, and rifle, with some overlap.

Examples for pistols.

Fast powders like bullseye is for target loads through standard pressure loads in handguns. 38 special and 45 auto.

Medium powders like unique work for shotgun, 45 auto and 38 special, but work into the +p range and beginning magnum range for cartridges like 44 special, low end 44 mag, 45 colt.

Magnum pistol powders like 296 or 2400 are actually on the edge for small rifle powders for 30 carbine and similar. These are used in 357 magnum, 44 mag, and other magnums.

Then for rifles,
fast to medium rifle powders (but a little slower burning than 296) such as 4198, 3031, and 4895 are useful across 444 marlin, 30-30, 223, 308, and into the lighter 30-06

then for ‘06 and similar and into magnum rifles like 300 Winchester you have 4350, which is slower than the others listed. I can’t think of others off hand as I don’t load any in that range.

then you have powders that’s slower still for stuff like 50 bmg.

You can load for example, 30-30 with all the rifle powders listed. But it is at its best with 3031 and other similar powders.

So what does factory ammo use? Well it depends. Winchester said once it used w748 for their factory 30-30 ammo.

But one thing that happens is the powder company makes a powder aiming to hit the mark at w748, instead they are slightly off one way or the other. They sell the train car load to the ammo factory. They test and determine they need 30 grains (weight measurement, 7000grains in a pound) of train car load X powder to match the velocity and pressure that 32 grains of train car Y provided last season.

If I’m not mistaken, they used bullseye for 45 auto for military ammo for years.

One reason for various powders is this example. 3031 works in a large range of case sizes and at a wide range of pressures, whereas h335, in the same class, has a much narrower application. Use it in the wrong case size and shape and it may ring the chamber from pressure spikes. It works wonderfully in its range though. 3031 maybe isn’t the best at any one thing (or maybe it’s the best in a particular place for some people) but it works good over a huge spectrum.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Trough the years i've learned that there were 2 básic types of powder , black and smokless, now, i know that every modern cartridge uses smokless powder.
Recently i Heard that some ammo like Magnum cartridges use different kind of powder, i can't find any info on that, non of the ammo manufacturing companies states what kind of powder they use either in their boxes nor their web site specs.
So Is it true cartridges like .44 special and .44 Magnum use different kind of powder or it's just the ammount?

Ever look at a bottle of WD-40? What are the ingredients? Look anywhere you like and see if you can find the list of ingredients of WD-40 published by the manufacturer.
The thing about free enterprise is, with the exceptions of food and drugs, manufacturers are not required to reveal their industrial secrets.

 

[jmr40]

As said there are dozens of powders and choosing the best one can get complicated. For example, 30-06 can be loaded with bullets weighing as little as 55 gr (sabot loads) up to 250 gr. The bullet weights used determine which powder is best.

MOST hunters use bullets ranging between 150-180 gr. Within that bullet weight range there are several good options. But if you want to go up to bullets over 180 gr you'll get better results with a slower burning powder. It doesn't mean you can't use the same powder with 150 gr and 220 gr bullets. It's just that you'll get better results with a different powder when using heavier bullets.

The same powders that work well with 30-06 also tend to work well with rounds like 243 or 6.5 CM. But if loading for 308 you'll get better results with a faster burning powder. At least with common bullet weights.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I've never heard of any manufacturers are using Unique(or any handgun powder) to create factory loads.

Oh, for factory loads, you're absolutely correct. I've never heard of that either.
I was just going on about the endless possibilities when reloading.
People who shoot military surplus ammo often load cast bullets with Unique for really low velocity loads.
Wasn't really disagreeing with anything you said, just pointing out that there are endless possibilities. Hence we should stick to published data.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Yes it does, thank You, as i'm not interested in Reloading but as why ammo manufacturers doesnt specify what kind of powder they use un their cartridges?

Seems like he got his answer, didn’t like what he heard, and left. The thread has since been zombied and reincarnated as (yet another) favorite powder thread - which is my personal favorite kind of thread since I really don’t have any one favorite powder, or brand. We all know the powder manufacturers aren’t required to publish exact formulas for their products but they are required to publish MSDS sheets for their canister products and they all tend to lump as many similar powders as possible on a sheet to obfuscate the actual ingredients and properties. So I guess my preference is for powders with lower %’s of nitroglycerin, higher %’s of graphite and anything else that acts as a flash suppressant but doesn’t change the burn cycle.