Stoeger 2000 - crap or not?

[hq]

I recently found out that I need another spare shotgun, mainly for my overseas hunting buddies who can't always be bothered to bring their own or they already bring a rifle. Something cheap but functional. There's a surprisingly nice Stoeger 2000 in LGS for approximately $150, it seems to function just fine, no binding or rattles and the well-known bolt rail issue is easy to fix. I have a bunch of Benelli Mobil chokes to boot.

I would otherwise already have bought it but the only remaining question is how much trouble am I potentially getting myself into? I do some of my own gunsmithing so minor fixes are a breeze, but the reputation of Stoeger semiautos isn't that great. Some seem to love them, other hate them. Is there a consensus what they're all about or do I just have to buy one and find out myself?

 

[Panzerschwein]

The Stoeger side bys are considered tops by CASmen. I'd buy it.

 

[cdb1]

I bought a M2000 new around 2003. It fired 1 1/8 oz loads just fine and after some judicious polishing it would shoot the higher velocity 1 oz loads. I know there were some bad ones but mine was good. I gave it to a boyfriend of my daughter’s a couple of years later and it’s still going strong. Stoeger customer service is handled by Benelli and is excellent so I’m sure they would take care of you if there was a major issue.

I’m the opposite of Cooldill in that I’d own a Stoeger semi but a Stoeger SxS or O/U is about the last shotgun I’d own.

 

[hq]

Thanks for the input. The majority of ammo will be #4-#6 1 1/4oz grouse loads and the only thing I want to be (relatively) sure of is that when someone has just traveled 5000 miles and borrowed my shotgun, it won't go "click" when that once-in-a-lifetime trophy capercaillie takes off at their feet...
Maybe I'll just go ahead and buy it and put a few hundred rounds through it to find out how it works.

 

[mgmorden]

They seem to be hit or miss. I have one that works perfectly fine. My brother had one that would fail to detonate the primer on shells about 10% of the time. He sent that gun back to the them 3 times without it getting fixed until he insisted on them sending a new gun. When they finally sent a completely new gun that one was fine.

Another friend had the same issue with one - gun tended to snap on primers. I never did follow up to see if he got it resolved.

 

[hq]

Thanks, this seems to confirm the roll-of-the-dice status of QC. This one has supposedly functioned fine and while wear marks would usually be a concern on a used gun, they seem to confirm the functionality in this case. No-one in their right mind would've carried a shotgun this much if there was a serious issue with its functionality.

I just got a few pictures by email and it looks well-worn enough. Hence a perfect candidate for a superficial strip-dye-truoil -job in a glorious attempt at polishing a turd a bit. For the asking price it can't be beat.

 

[cdb1]

I hope it works well for you.

 

[SwampWolf]

I’m the opposite of Cooldill in that I’d own a Stoeger semi but a Stoeger SxS or O/U is about the last shotgun I’d own.

I pretty much agree with cdb 1's opinion-though I think they rank slightly above the Smith & Wesson's Model 916's poor excuse for a shotgun.

 

[eastbank]

for a normal hunter, 5-8 boxes of shells a year it may be ok. but for the clay target games I would shy away from it. eastbank.

 

[cdb1]

I pretty much agree with cdb 1's opinion-though I think they rank slightly above the Smith & Wesson's Model 916's poor excuse for a shotgun.

I’m not familiar with the Model 916 so I’ll definitely take your word on it. Were they made in South America like Stoeger SxS and O/U’s?

This is an article I just found that though old I find to be informative.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=142774

 

[1stmarine]

the guns are fine but the firing groups fail prematurely.
So what some people do is they get them to the gunsmith for example for kids to shoot in leagues.
A good gunsmith might replace the entire group and put a mechanical reset and brand new good quality firing pins.
Then they can last many years before servicing again although more people move up and graduate into a nice browning or Beretta or something
specially if they get serious with competition.
If they are very cheap then might be worth depending on how the rest is.
Just consider the work that might need to make them reliable and normally is not that bad but we are lucky to have a good local smith who is willing to work on any type of shotgun.
Some do not even want to touch certain brands or models.

 

[hq]

Thanks for the details & insight. The ball is rolling now, I emailed them that I'll pick it up once the paperwork is ready. The gun has recently been updated with some new parts, the sales associate knows the previous owner personally and I'm fairly confident it'll be ok for the purpose. The expected round count is no more than a few boxes a year and if something actually goes horribly wrong, I have a competent Benelli/Beretta/Franchi/Stoeger gunsmith at hand. The types of additional aftermarket chokes that come with it suggest that it's been more of a waterfowling than a range gun.

The failing FCG possibility is good to know, it resembles the Benelli group I'm familiar with, even though I'm not sure if my Benelli spare parts collection is of any use with it. Schematic of bolt and fire control parts groups look eerily similar to the M3 Super 90 and, apart from recoil spring configuration, not that different from Centro Supersport, the two guns I already have a more or less complete emergency spare parts kits for.

 

[1stmarine]

Keep in mind they are inexpensively made and for whatever reason the firing groups are not up to any sustain duty.
For the rest I don't see any issues with the steel or trunions or anything that would indicate they cannot operate reliably
like other Brazilian guns a tools do. But for whatever reason many Brazilian makers have issues making consistently reliable
firing groups in several guns. Things that one can normally easily fix but again one has to find one who is willing to work on this
bottom barrel budget guns also w/o spending an eye.
One might consider other brands in the $700 to 1K or so that show consistency and more quality w/o going crazy on spending.
With all that said it is not unheard of people just switching the inertia reset to mechanical reset in O/U and SXS so while one
is at it, then new firing pins and sears and whatever else is needed might be in order.
Knowing this one should do some research and perhaps talk to a gunsmith before investing any money. The local skeet
and trap clubs are great places to locate resources and also see what budget setups work like the guns we use for the local
kids leagues that vary in brand and model but they are serviced to be reliable.
The loaners guns we have in the club are all budget guns but they all run great some have over 100 even 200 thousand
rounds put through them.
Look also at some of the spanish used market that have great guns superior to much more expensive guns but in the 700-900 dollar
range. I mean ...for an over and under you can actually compete whit if you like. There are also some good british and turkish
ones but I don't know them well personally.

 

[hq]

But for whatever reason many Brazilian makers have issues making consistently reliable
firing groups in several guns. Things that one can normally easily fix but again one has to find one who is willing to work on this
bottom barrel budget guns also w/o spending an eye.
One might consider other brands in the $700 to 1K or so that show consistency and more quality w/o going crazy on spending.

Thanks for the tip, even though Stoegers are made in Turkey by Vursan. I'm not sure if that makes any meaningful difference compared to Brazilian-made firearms. I have plenty of shotguns, from vintage pumps to brand name semiautos and hand-engraved sidelocks. This one has one main purpose: being a loaner spare. It might also follow me to open sea for waterfowling and I'm not going to shed a tear if it goes overboard by accident or gets bent into a banana if someone leaves it leaning against a tree on windy weather.
I'll let you know as soon as I've shot a couple of hundred rounds through it and done a thorough jeweler's loupe inspection. I'm not expecting much but if it goes bang somewhat reliably, it'll already be worth its price.

 

[1stmarine]

Stoeger condor, 2000, coach have been made in Brazil in the ER Amantino plant.
They make other OEM guns then sold under other brands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoeger_Condor

Those are the ones people have been buying for many years at the superstore sales like Dicks, Gander and others specials.
I am saying becuase I have the experience to see several of these guns fail during weekend leagues or in practice when people start putting a fair nr. of shells though them.
some fail after a few hundred rounds and it happens quite often where they will not reset or firing pin will not strike with enough force.
Normally these are new folks who just started shooting and wanted something budget so they went to Dicks or wherever and got the cheap deals.
One would think these things would be fixed over time but they have been failing and that is why many people in a very low budget after adquiring one
of these follow the advice and take it to a gunsmith for retrofitting if they want to keep that gun as a budget tool but w/o ruining their shooting experience.
I think semi auto pistols from brazil also have firing groups and even safety problems so in that case I would not be even considering one.
You see, these guns look fine in terms of the alloys, bores, truniuns and everything else, I mean for budget so not sure what's up with their firing systems.
It might be a combination of heat treatment and assembly QC deficiencies. In case of a shotgun there is a fix but one needs to find the Gunsmith.
Maybe there are other models manufactured in other regions and those are fine.Still I feel they are not trusted for any sort of serious duty
unless revisited by a competent gunsmith. Again this might have changed lately but as far as I know many said made in brazil and
the design has been pretty much the same even with target or field versions and different wood or finishes for different stores, is the same gun.

I am trying to be honest here so people do not get surprised. It might not be a bad deal for budget if is very cheap and someone doesn't shoot it that much
but on average they eventually fail according to history. Not really sure how long the trunions or other parts will last but one thing we know is some parents
have been buying them brand new in one of those deals, sent them to the gunsmith unfired, have them retrofitted and then they worked great for the kids
until they graduated and in some cases evolved in the sport. In other words they can become suitable guns but not w/o trigger group work.

I don't like them for myself but some people use them. That is as much as I can tell you being honest and based on my first hand experience and observations.
I even took a couple apart in the club to see how the sear is designed. So the mechanical reset retrofit is always a good idea and basically remove the
inertia reset that is the cause of huge headaches for these guns. just plan in advance budgtet wise.

I cannot speak for the semiautos or other models, just the o/u models and a few SxS.

 

[hq]

Stoeger condor, 2000, coach have been made in Brazil in the ER Amantino plant.

It apparently is, but the shotgun in question is depicted in my post #6. It's a Turkish-manufactured semiauto, not an SxS.

I appreciate your effort in writing detailed explanations on the subject, I really do (thanks!) and I genuinely enjoy reading them, even though in this case we're flying a few flight levels lower; at "if it goes bang, it'll do" -altitude, for all it's worth at $150-ish over the counter.

 

[1stmarine]

oh!........ sorry for the confusion!
.... anyway... for that kind of money who knows, might be the best find ever.
merry Christmas everyone!

 

[morgaj1]

Any update hq?

 

[hq]

Any update hq?

Still waiting for the red tape to clear. It usually takes a few weeks, sometimes a couple of months.

 

[hq]

So... The Stoeger has been put through its paces, taken apart, examined and, to a degree, tweaked.

First of all, this one didn't have a binding bolt rail issue. Bolt moves smoothly all the way back in the receiver and returns to battery just like it should. Trigger is just as good - or bad - as that of any of my Benellis. Stock drop is close enough to what suits me and forearm feels meaty. The gun has only a couple of minor dings and no visible wear to speak of, the only cosmetic thing that needs attention is the awful lacquered stock, which is about to be stripped and get a full Truoil-treatment.

The outside of the magazine tube was rough, making the action sound gritty, so I swiftly sanded and polished the tube. Now it at least sounds smooth when you work the action.

It feeds 32g / 1 1/4oz and heavier loads perfectly, zero issues so far. 24g / 7/8oz loads don't work at all, 28g:s / 1oz cause occasional misfeeds. A slightly lighter recoil spring might fix that, but on the other hand it's a bird gun, plain and simple, and functionality with light loads doesn't matter that much. Unless I throw an extension tube on it and try 3gun at some point.

All in all I'm more than happy with the purchase. It seems to do the job and it's a lot of gun for the money. It's no Benelli, that's for sure, but close enough for all intents and purposes for the task at hand. And it isn't the end of the world if I put a few more dings on it waterfowling, it's more of a tool than a potential heirloom and will be treated as such.

Approved.

...now I just need to figure out whether to make it my go-to shotgun for rough weather, or have the synthetic Beretta 1201F I "accidentally" bought (for even less) hard chromed for that.

Oh well, you can never have too many shotguns.

 

[cdb1]

Oh well, you can never have too many shotguns.

True. I’ve got twelve but I need a Benelli M2 20 gauge, a FABARM XLR5 Waterfowler, Grulla 16 gauge SxS and Citori 16 gauge.

 

[hq]

I did some additional polishing to the mag tube with a proper desk-mounted buffing wheel and took it all the way to mirror finish. After cleaning I gave it a splash of Break Free from a pump bottle. Whaddaya know, now it feeds 1oz skeet loads nicely, no malfunctions so far. 7/8oz started to feed with 50-60% probability.
I took a good look at what's binding, and aside from a heavy recoil spring, the rear of the bolt is rather square, making the transition from pushing the hammer back to tilting it down while cocking it notchy.

Because this is a cheap gun to experiment with, I thought about beveling the rear of the bolt, not unlike in Norrell short barrel full auto Ruger 10/22:s. I took the measurements and it'll still cock the hammer, the bottom of the bolt is slightly below where the hammer rests when the disconnector catches it.

The most noticeable drag happens when the bolt passes the hammer and starts pushing it with its lower rear edge. The 7/8oz shells eject nicely but the bolt fails to pick up the next one from the feed ramp, so it seems like a matter of getting the bolt move all the way back as smoothly as possible, without losing momentum.

I have so many cases of cheap 7/8oz #7½ shotshells that I almost have to try this. If it works it'll double (triple?) as a guest gun for skeet, trap, sporting and compak as well.

The Beretta feeds anything like a clockwork, but having yet another cheap skeet-ready shotgun might be worth the elbow grease...

 

[Chuck R.]

You may want to check out MOA Precision, they offer a reduced recoil spring:

http://moaprecision.com/cgi-bin/imc...g&cat=7&page=1&search=&since=0&status=&title=

 

[hq]

You may want to check out MOA Precision, they offer a reduced recoil spring:

Interesting. Do you have any idea if they ship overseas? In EU market Stoeger 2000:s have originally come with two recoil springs but all accessories except the five chokes and choke key have been lost by previous owners.

 

[Chuck R.]

No idea, but shooting them an email is pretty easy. They were very responsive the last time I asked a question.

http://moaprecision.com/contact/