Straight 'rifling' in .410 revolvers?

H

halfmoonclip

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We have an abundance of poisonous snakes near our camp (we'll let the ethics/legality of harming them for now; neither my dog nor I would likely survive a bite, and we're a long way from the ER.) My usual hiking gun is a 340SC, with the first three chambers loaded with snakeshot.
Tried a Smith 'Governor' the other year, for a (sorta) concealable revo with a bigger payload. A test hop at 21 feet showed a doughnut hole pattern, presumably from the rifling swirling the shot charge.
Realize that anything smoothbore shorter than 18" are Class III.
But I've never read of any glowing accuracy with .45 Colt in the Governor/Judge class; the long leap to the rifling being an issue.
Soooo- has anyone considered using straight rifling in such guns, scribing the solid bullets to comply with the law, but tightening the shot charge?
Whattya think?
Moon
 
Any idea what the existing rate of twist is for the 45/410 revolvers is? Just curious, as it seems like they would be trying to compromise between what you are asking, and just enough to kinda stabilize a 45 bullet. Unless there is a legal minimum rate of twist before they become an NFA item.
 
I would tread lightly with straight rifling since it seems to be a very grey area with the ATF. Franklin Armory got away with it since their Reformation firearm does not meet the definition of a rifle shotgun or handgun, has a barrel less than 18" and overall length of at least 26". So it basically falls into the same category as the Mossberg Shockwave and Remington Tac 13/14.

Here is the ATF determination letter on the Franklin Armory Reformation from 2019.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/o...-franklin-armory-reformation-firearm/download

I can't see a revolver with straight grooves as being legal under the 1934 NFA and 1968 GCA. I say this simply because the overall length is under 26" and currently it meets the definition of a handgun since it does have rifling and is chambered for centerfire ammunition.
 
halfmoonclip said:
We have an abundance of poisonous snakes near our camp (we'll let the ethics/legality of harming them for now; neither my dog nor I would likely survive a bite, and we're a long way from the ER.) My usual hiking gun is a 340SC, with the first three chambers loaded with snakeshot.
Tried a Smith 'Governor' the other year, for a (sorta) concealable revo with a bigger payload. A test hop at 21 feet showed a doughnut hole pattern, presumably from the rifling swirling the shot charge.
Realize that anything smoothbore shorter than 18" are Class III.
But I've never read of any glowing accuracy with .45 Colt in the Governor/Judge class; the long leap to the rifling being an issue.
Soooo- has anyone considered using straight rifling in such guns, scribing the solid bullets to comply with the law, but tightening the shot charge?
Whattya think?
Moon
Click to expand...
There is a video on line for some of the company folks that make the Judge shooting skeet targets and doing pretty well at it.

From my fiddling with loading shot cartridges, larger bore gus allow you more shot in your charge which translate to better hit effectiveness.

But as always, make some loads, learn i=their effectiveness and then follow the practice when shooting at undesirable critters near your position.
 
My understanding is that some ammunition companies have made 410 shells that are intended to overcome the donut problem.

The OP might want to look into that.
 
This was shot with my Governor at around 10 yards. Three things going on there, 410 bird shot, 45 Colt (group at the head) and 45acp (group at the wrist).

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This was Federal 410 buck at the same distance (head, and to the right). The vertical stringing seems to be the norm with it too.

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My experience with the bird shot here is pretty limited, but the bird shot seems like it would work OK, and doesnt seem to have any major gaps. Not sure Ive really seen a "dounut", unless that gap on the cheek would be considered it. And any of the other targets Ive shot show a similar pattern with no real major gaps in any one area. These were a little farther out at 10 yards too, so I would think things would be opening up more and more gaps would be expected.

Ive always wondered about the "jump", but my gun obviously likes the 45acp, and its got the longest jump, so go figure.
 
Soooo- has anyone considered using straight rifling in such guns, scribing the solid bullets to comply with the law, but tightening the shot charge?
Click to expand...
The law says nothing about the rifling needing to "scribe" bullets. Polygonal rifling is perfectly legal and doesn't leave any conventional rifling marks on the bullets. The prohibition (regulation) is about barrel and overall length restrictions on shotguns, not to insure that there are rifling marks on the bullets.

My understanding, based on the 2019 BATF opinion letter regarding the Franklin Armory Reformation, is that the simplest way to understand this topic is that if a firearm must be rifled to comply with federal law, then the rifling must have a twist to it.
 
We have an abundance of rattlers where I live so I've popped a lot of snakes over the years. If using a handgun, I walk up to within 3-4 feet and shoot em in the head with whatever load is in the gun. Seems to work and I've never used "snake shot".
 
I have never even considered using shot shells of any kind in a hand gun. I grew up in diamondback country and living on a farm we were "blessed" with an abundance of them. I used a 22 rimfire to dispatch them if I happened to have one upon a meeting and found it to be very effective. Otherwise a hoe, shovel, or even a rock got the job done. I saw my dad whop one with a pipe wrench once. I was never quite that brave prefering at least a couple of feet more distance. I even saw him kill a skunk with a tractor crank one time. That stunt got him banished from the house until he undressed in the back yard, hosed him self off with the garden hose, did a scrub down with tomato juice, and another garden hose rinse Then he was allowed to come inside and bathe. If I remember correctly my mother built a fire outside and using a long stick burned his clothes and she was not one to spend a cent needlessly.
 
JohnKSa said:
The law says nothing about the rifling needing to "scribe" bullets. Polygonal rifling is perfectly legal and doesn't leave any conventional rifling marks on the bullets. The prohibition (regulation) is about barrel and overall length restrictions on shotguns, not to insure that there are rifling marks on the bullets.

My understanding, based on the 2019 BATF opinion letter regarding the Franklin Armory Reformation, is that the simplest way to understand this topic is that if a firearm must be rifled to comply with federal law, then the rifling must have a twist to it.
Click to expand...
So then the .410 revolvers could have a very slow twist rifling, like 1:1000. Taurus could release a version of the Judge and call it the Stenographer.
 
That ruling on rifling actually having to spin the bullet...what that really has to do with anything, legally, remains a mystery to me. My mistake was assuming that identifiable rifling marks (whether standard or polygonal) was desired for forensic analysis. Not clear quite what the rocket surgeons at the BATF really want.
TTv2, lol, and nicely played...at what point does rifling actually become rifling?
I headshot a Copperhead with a Beretta 950 in .25ACP, but it is easier with snakeshot, and there is less chance of ricochet.
Yeah, a hoe will work, but they are tiresome to carry.... ;) Folks look at you funny.
The other issue we have at camp is a really nice rail trail across the river, which is often part of my walk. The yupsters pedaling along are already hearing banjos; a handgun too large to readily conceal would give those folks apoplexy.
I did pot one some years ago; some nearby bikers looked over, alarmed...I yelled 'snake', and they went back to their business.
There is a spot where we have seen a number of old buzztails; I may just take the '97 for a serious look, and hope to not startle any yuppies.
Moon
 
Not clear quite what the rocket surgeons at the BATF really want.
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They're interested in enforcing the laws regarding short barreled shotguns. Rifling (actual rifling) makes a Judge into a pistol and not a short barrel shotgun. Take out the rifling, or put in rifling that doesn't spin the bullet and the BATF says it's a short barreled shotgun and subject to NFA regulations.
That ruling on rifling actually having to spin the bullet...what that really has to do with anything, legally, remains a mystery to me.
Click to expand...
The BATF says that spinning a bullet is what makes rifling rifling and therefore makes a firearm thus equipped something other than a shotgun. It's worthwhile to keep in mind that laws and rules can be counterintuitive. It's much better to just see what they say and comply with that vs. trying to reason them out and then complying with one's personal assumptions about the intent of the law.
So then the .410 revolvers could have a very slow twist rifling, like 1:1000.
Click to expand...
Sure. But a person who was going to do something like that and wasn't stupid would contact the BATF first and try to get an opinion letter (which may or may not be worth the paper it's printed on in a few months after it is released) about what constitutes sufficient twist to legally qualify as rifling.

Keep in mind that the BATF's standard procedure for situations where things start to become ambiguous is to put out a monster document with a bunch of new rules and definitions, some of which tend to generate "collateral damage". That means a smart person wouldn't just try to make sure they were doing something legal, they would actually weigh the possible adverse effects on federal gun law enforcement of pushing the absolute limits of the current interpretation of the law vs. the possible benefits of getting to put "nearly" straight rifling in a pistol that will chamber a shotgun cartridge.
 
halfmoonclip said:
Yeah, a hoe will work, but they are tiresome to carry.... ;) Folks look at you funny.
Click to expand...

Yeah, they are but that was my usual burden as I worked my way up one row and down another eliminating weeds that cultivators couldn't get. No one looked at you funny either as most were swinging an idiot stick for the very same reason I was. I came to detest a hoe and still don't like them. Also I learned snakes are easy to just walk around and have never had one chase me. Today if I felt the need to be armed to ward off snakes I would just strap on a 22 handgun of some type. I would bet today's snakes are no tougher than they were when I was young.
 
In ancient history - the 1970s - TC brought out the first .45/.410 on the Contender single shot. It had a straight grooved choke tube to de-spin the shot charge. Be sure to take it off to shoot bullets.
An importer brought in some cheap .410 shot pistols with "scratch" rifling.
The feds didn't like that evasion so they banned them but had to include the Contender too because it was operationally the same.
Contender countered with the Hot Shot, same thing but chambered only deep enough for a .45 case with plastic shot capsule. Gunsmiths were doing a lively business extending the chambers for .410s.
When the cheap imports dried up, the feds relented on TC and you could once more buy a factory .45/.410.
 
halfmoonclip said:
Yeah, a hoe will work, but they are tiresome to carry.
Click to expand...

Haven't you heard about the farm worker who whacked the head off a rattlesnake with a sharp hoe which flipped it up fangs first to hit him in the face?
You can hear that story about every plantation and farm in this end of the country... including my Great-Grandfather's. The carnage must have been awful.
 
JohnKSa said:
Or just get rid of it. Better yet, just ditch the NFA entirely.
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I think the odds of one of us winning the lottery have a higher chance than the NFA being dumped.

Even if .410 was excluded, I'm not sure a smoothbore Judge would be something I'd buy. A one or two shot derringer, sure, but a revolver? At least with a rifled Judge it has the ability to shoot .45 Colt and that increases its usable distance.
 
If it were legal, it would be interesting to experiment with a smoothbore firing round balls at high velocity.
A .451" lead ball weighs only 140 grains and with the narrow bearing surface at the equator, you could blow one out very fast with moderate pressure. Muzzleloader shooters tell how effective the round ball is. But would it be accurate enough for CQB?
 
There are plenty of gun laws that make no sense at all, the straight rifled barrel among them.
The 'brace' was one of the better work-arounds for short barrel carbines/pistols, but the feds figured that out.
Jim Watson, a smoothbore patched ball gun could be created with whatever configuration you like, without a 'by your leave' from the Feds. Just make sure it's a muzzleloader. ;)
Moon
 
"The BATF says that spinning a bullet is what makes rifling rifling and therefore makes a firearm thus equipped something other than a shotgun. It's worthwhile to keep in mind that laws and rules can be counterintuitive. It's much better to just see what they say and comply with that vs. trying to reason them out and then complying with one's personal assumptions about the intent of the law."
Unhappily, JohnKsa, you are no doubt correct about this, as well as collateral damage from pushing the regulatory envelope. Guess we should remind ourselves that there are legions of BATF minions with nothing to do but write regs.

"When the cheap imports dried up, the feds relented on TC and you could once more buy a factory .45/.410."
Jim, this convoluted tale is truly amazing. Thought I remembered that 'de spin' contraption on the Contender.
Moon
 
I've thought of this as well. I think the solution to comply with the regulations would be to just use a very very long rate of twist, like 1:200 or something like that.
 
If my memory serves me that principle was tried by Walter Craig, an importer in Selma, AL back in the sixties. He imported a bunch ofBrazilian 410 cut down single shots with shallow scratched rifling. ATF said “no” and stopped TC from making the 45/410 Contender for a while. Then came the HotShots, various litigation, and the return of the 45/410. A friend and I got in trouble when we bored the rifling out of a 1917 Colt to make a shot pistol. Luckily, dad found out, pulled the barrel and destroyed it. Long enough ago to be non pros now and no evidence left. We got the idea from an article in a gun rag where a relatively noted writer did it and made a choke device. The TC barrels for 45:410 have a choke that is straight grooved and tapered.
I’d suggest making something like that choke if you have the money and time. Would work great on the six inch Judge. Didn’t the shotgun size Judge have a straight choke insert?
 
someguy2800 said:
I've thought of this as well. I think the solution to comply with the regulations would be to just use a very very long rate of twist, like 1:200 or something like that.
Click to expand...
I would wonder then if the ATF would then issue a ruling that rifling is only rifling if it stabilizes a bullet.

There's also nothing saying that the entire bore of the rifle must be rifled, if there was only a quarter of an inch that was rifled, does that not meet the definition of being rifled?

A very slow twist rate combined with a shot despinner choke tube like what is used on the Circuit Judge could eliminate any rotation whilst still being legal.
 
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