someguy2800
Member
They probably have more interesting things to concern themselves with. Muzzleloading rifles made to shoot round ball often have rates of twist of 50, 60, even 70 inches.
Straight 'rifling' in .410 revolvers?
- Thread starter halfmoonclip
- Start date
They probably have more interesting things to concern themselves with. Muzzleloading rifles made to shoot round ball often have rates of twist of 50, 60, even 70 inches.
The current ruling says it has to spin the bullet. It says nothing about how fast it has to spin the bullet.
Such a person would do well to keep in mind that the BATF's standard procedure for situations where things start to become ambiguous or questionable is to put out a monster document with a bunch of new rules and definitions, some of which tend to generate "collateral damage". That means a smart person wouldn't just try to make sure they were doing something legal, they would actually weigh the possible adverse effects on federal gun law enforcement of pushing the absolute limits of the current interpretation of the law vs. the possible benefits of getting better patterns out of a pistol that will chamber a shotgun cartridge.
A person who was going to do something like that and wasn't stupid would contact the BATF first and try to get an opinion letter (which may or may not be worth the paper it's printed on in a few months after it is released) about what constitutes sufficient twist to legally qualify as rifling and whether counteracting that twist with a muzzle attachment is legally problematic in their opinion.
Such a person would do well to keep in mind that the BATF's standard procedure for situations where things start to become ambiguous or questionable is to put out a monster document with a bunch of new rules and definitions, some of which tend to generate "collateral damage". That means a smart person wouldn't just try to make sure they were doing something legal, they would actually weigh the possible adverse effects on federal gun law enforcement of pushing the absolute limits of the current interpretation of the law vs. the possible benefits of getting better patterns out of a pistol that will chamber a shotgun cartridge.
TTv2
Member
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2016
- Messages
- 5,001
If all it has to do is spin the bullet then 1 turn in 100 inches it is! Like the poster above said, round balls shoot best with a slow twist, I'm sure like myself there are some who prefer shooting .45 Colt with round balls.
I'm not saying I would ream out rifling and leave only a fraction of an inch in the bore and have 95% of the bore be smooth, but really, who is going to know if you do that?
I had a cheap Cobray .410 derringer that had maybe an inch of rifling and it was so shallow I wondered if a .45 bullet even stabilized when shot, but then the lightbulb went off and I realized that Cobray probably puts such shallow rifling in them figuring people are going to ream it out anyway and keep it in the tackle box or in the shed or use it while hiking or hunting for snakes or rabid critters and who is going to know? After decades go by and the man gets his use out of it, he'll take the barrel off and bury it in the woods where it will rust away and never be found.
The short barrel shotgun regulations are unconstitutional, we all know this, and people should not obey unconstitutuional laws, just like that one in Albuquerque about legal carrying.
Where does that leave rifled slug barrels then?
Gordon
Member
The old Garden Guns, in various calibers like .22 , .32 . 9 mm , and rarely 44-40 used Rutledge Chokes. .In my Anshutz Geco .22 that is a 12" normally rifled barrel with 10" of drilled out smooth bore around .375" . The swirling shot charge expands and is stopped swirling in the 10" smooth bore. In the 9 mm Glatt garden gun I have the 10" of rifled bore has 12" of smooth .410 bore and 2" of .375" taper at the end .It throws about A 20" pattern at 25 yards with 1/4 .oz # 8 shot . I had a few hollow based pointed 9 mm slugs that threw a 4" pattern at that distance!
I can't tell if you're intentionally ignoring what I'm writing or not.
If someone was going to come up with rifling slower than is typically used in any firearm in an attempt to circumvent the prohibition of straight rifling and wasn't stupid they would contact the BATF first and try to get an opinion letter (which may or may not be worth the paper it's printed on in a few months after it is released) about what constitutes sufficient twist to legally qualify as rifling and whether counteracting that twist with a muzzle attachment is legally problematic in their opinion.
Such a person would do well to keep in mind that the BATF's standard procedure for situations where things start to become ambiguous or questionable is to put out a monster document with a bunch of new rules and definitions, some of which tend to generate "collateral damage". That means a smart person wouldn't just try to make sure they were doing something legal, they would actually weigh the possible adverse effects on federal gun law enforcement of pushing the absolute limits of the current interpretation of the law vs. the possible benefits of getting better patterns out of a pistol that will chamber a shotgun cartridge. In other words one should be reasonably sure that the benefit is worth the potential mayhem and collateral damage that could result from pushing the limits of the law.
SBS laws have been challenged and upheld. Until they are struck down, they are the law and violating them would be inadvisable. If you have lots of money and time and are willing to risk jail time and your right to own firearms, then I guess you could go for it. Seems a lot to risk to get better patterns out of a .410 pistol, but everybody has different priorities, I suppose.
Are you thinking of putting a rifled slug barrel on a .410 pistol? Why would you do that when they already come with rifled barrels?
No. You said that "spinning a bullet is what makes rifling rifling" and that a firearm so equipped is "something other than a shotgun". Either what you said isn't entirely accurate, or a shotgun with a rifled slug barrel isn't a shotgun.
I think a 410 Mossberg Shockwave would shine in this requirement of yours. Lighter weight than the 12 gauge & smooth bore.
www.mossberg.com
590 Shockwave – .410 Bore
Features the Shockwave signature bird’s-head grip, uniquely shaped to minimize felt recoil. Also includes the features that have made Mossberg pump-actions the choice for millions worldwide: ambidextrous safety, dual extractors, positive steel-to-steel lockup, twin action bars, and a smooth...
www.mossberg.com
Rifled slug barrels for shotgun calibers other than the .410 are not at all applicable to a discussion about .410 revolvers. That's why I asked why you would want to install a rifled slug barrel on a revolver that already had a rifled barrel.
If you want to read about what is considered a rifle or shotgun per the NFA, with the understanding that it's not really relevant to this thread, here is some information.
Here's a document from the BATF.
"A shotgun is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and designed to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger."
"A rifle is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and designed to use the energy of an explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled barrel for each single pull of the trigger."
Here are the legal definitions.
26 U.S. Code § 5845 - Definitions
The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.
The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
You really need to go through more than just those definitions to get a full picture of the situation given other restrictions in the law and it's important to understand that the .410 shotgun is different from all other shotgun chamberings for a couple of reasons and that pistols (revolvers) are not covered by the NFA. But there's some material to read through if the topic interests you.
For the purposes of this thread which is about pistols in one specific caliber, it's accurate to say that if a .410 revolver has rifled barrel that spins the bullet, then it's something other than a shotgun and therefore not an NFA device.
Last edited:
Jim Watson
Member
There was a good bit of work done on shot revolvers just before NFA and maybe after until the full import trickled down through the gunsmithing business. The cylinder bored straight through for a maximum length cartridge, the rifling reamed smooth, and a choke tube were features I have seen.
Taurus showed a 28 ga revolver but could not get a "sporting purposes" exemption for an over .50" handgun. Neither could H. Bowen when he built a modernized .577 revolver.
I saw a description of a Bowen "Paradox" revolver that boggled my mind. Said to have started as a .44 Magnum with the barrel reamed to .45 smooth except for the muzzle which was left rifled with a tapering leade. The cylinder was rechambered to .45 LC. So you have a .452" bullet whizzing down that smooth section until it hits the rifling and is swaged down and spun up. Shot loads in .460 S&W brass for snakes and such. He also made fancy ones with Damascus barrels - steel lined for smokeless, though.
Yes, I was referring to Walter Craig. The company is still in business, the shot pistol episode did not break him.
But what of the shotguns with rifled barrels meant for shooting saboted slugs?
Taurus showed a 28 ga revolver but could not get a "sporting purposes" exemption for an over .50" handgun. Neither could H. Bowen when he built a modernized .577 revolver.
I saw a description of a Bowen "Paradox" revolver that boggled my mind. Said to have started as a .44 Magnum with the barrel reamed to .45 smooth except for the muzzle which was left rifled with a tapering leade. The cylinder was rechambered to .45 LC. So you have a .452" bullet whizzing down that smooth section until it hits the rifling and is swaged down and spun up. Shot loads in .460 S&W brass for snakes and such. He also made fancy ones with Damascus barrels - steel lined for smokeless, though.
Yes, I was referring to Walter Craig. The company is still in business, the shot pistol episode did not break him.
But what of the shotguns with rifled barrels meant for shooting saboted slugs?
Again, it's not relevant to the topic of .410 revolvers for a couple of reasons. If you want to discuss why putting a slug barrel on a firearm that's already officially a shotgun (or making a shoulder fired rifled slug gun in a shotgun chambering) doesn't change its classification per the NFA, that's a topic for the NFA subforum, not for a discussion about 0.410 revolvers. There are special considerations that apply there (particularly avoiding the destructive device definition) that don't apply to a discussion of pistols (including revolvers) and specifically to the .410 chambering.
The comment I made was about straight rifling vs. rifling from the BATF letter regarding the Franklin Armory gun which gives the BATF's opinion about what is and isn't rifling.
"...the straight lands and grooves incorporated into the barrel design of the Reformation do not impart a spin onto a projectile when fired through the barrel. Consequently,the Reformation is not a "rifle" as that term is defined in the GCA and NFA."
If you want to make sure that a firearm isn't a shotgun, then it needs to have rifling that imparts a spin onto a projectile, per the BATF. That isn't enough if you widen the discussion to include shotgun chamberings in other than .410 in shoulder-fired weapons because the issue with DDs complicates things.
There are two reasons that the Taurus Judge and S&W Governor are legal and are NOT NFA items.
The definitions of a rifle, shotgun, and handgun are pretty clear as is the definition of barrel rifling. And no there is not a set definition on how fast or slow the twist rate has to be, only that it has to spin the projectile.
The Judge and Governor are Jacks's of all Trades, Masters of None. So no matter what you do it will be a compromise since you have to keep the revolvers legal (or register them with the NFA). So any improvements to make shot shells more accurate will decrease the already minimal accuracy of pistol calibers.
- The barrels are rifled.
- The bore diameter is less that 0.500"
The definitions of a rifle, shotgun, and handgun are pretty clear as is the definition of barrel rifling. And no there is not a set definition on how fast or slow the twist rate has to be, only that it has to spin the projectile.
The Judge and Governor are Jacks's of all Trades, Masters of None. So no matter what you do it will be a compromise since you have to keep the revolvers legal (or register them with the NFA). So any improvements to make shot shells more accurate will decrease the already minimal accuracy of pistol calibers.
jmorris
Member
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2005
- Messages
- 24,280
TC Contender 45/410 and hot shot barrels came with removable “chokes”, that were Straight to stop rotation. Remove them for solids.
Over the years I have found the slower the better, if you are not trying to open up the pattern. I have better results using .410 wads than Speer capsules and keeping them as slow as possible. For semiautos I stop as soon as the firearm will reliably cycle.
This is what #12 out of a 5” barrel at 3yds looks like
Over the years I have found the slower the better, if you are not trying to open up the pattern. I have better results using .410 wads than Speer capsules and keeping them as slow as possible. For semiautos I stop as soon as the firearm will reliably cycle.
This is what #12 out of a 5” barrel at 3yds looks like
Last edited:
halfmoonclip
Member
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2011
- Messages
- 2,829
12Bravo20, the indifferent accuracy of .45 Colt in these guns was one of the reasons for my thought of eliminating the rifling. Your description of these revos as' jacks of all trades,' masters of none, is entirely correct.
Anyway, my question is answered, and I'm back to the 340 as a hiking gun. My real goal with a .410 was more range, and that simply isn't being accomplished.
The trip down the rabbit hole of BATF regulations was interesting. And baffling.
Thanks all.
Moon
halfmoonclip
Member
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2011
- Messages
- 2,829
If I'm serious about snake murdering, I'll take the riot '97 with a full tube...
Seeing either the Mossie (or the Winchester) on the bike trail would give the yupsters fits.
Moon
mcb
Member
If a snake is close enough I feel the need to dispatch them I have never had trouble just plugging them with my 38 Special.
someguy2800
Member
All I can say is thank goodness our wise leaders in the 1930's had the wisdom to outlaw something so sinister and dangerous as a handgun that could effectively pattern #8 bird shot. God only knows the destructions that would be wrought on the unsuspecting populace by such a device if not for those brave men.
Last edited:
Gordon
Member
In the Public Defender version of the Judge ; I have found that both buck shot and birdshot prints tighter groups than any other . .410 pistol I have fired up till now. I always saw the Snubbies patterned .22 and .38 and .44 shot cartridges better than longer barreled rifled guns. I love my stainless Public Defender and with Federal four pellets 000 buck 2 1/2" loads it gives 8" groups at 50 feet . About 20" with number 8 or 9 shot at My 50 foot range
With 225 grain Federal Long Colt hollow points it does rested 4" groups. All very useful and very portable. Taurus was doing their homework , the rifling is shallow and " lazy "
I can't measure it, but judging by .45 Muzzle loaders maybe 1-28" , I just found out the Public Defender has 1-24" rifling where the earlier Judges have 1-12" rifling as does the S&W Govenor .
With 225 grain Federal Long Colt hollow points it does rested 4" groups. All very useful and very portable. Taurus was doing their homework , the rifling is shallow and " lazy "
I can't measure it, but judging by .45 Muzzle loaders maybe 1-28" , I just found out the Public Defender has 1-24" rifling where the earlier Judges have 1-12" rifling as does the S&W Govenor .
Last edited:
Jim Watson
Member
I am sure that a Contender has occasionally been called on to push a bullet through that choke. Tough guns.
Mike Venturino wrote that he considered the usual handgun shotload of #9 or even #6 to be too large, not a dense enough pattern for snakes. He said that one bag of #12 would shoot all the snakes in his area.
I sure hope you meant to say an 8 INCH group at 50 feet instead of an 8 FOOT group at 50 feet. A Mossberg shockwave has a tighter pattern at 25 yards with 3" 000 buckshot at around 12 to 14 inches for 3 shots (15 pellets).
trackskippy
Member
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2010
- Messages
- 3,539
Just basing this on my Governor, no experience with the Taurus, what accuracy Ive seen with mine with the solid rounds, I wouldn't call indifferent or poor. The rounds I was shooting out of mine, were just run of the mill "blasting ammo" I had loaded up for a couple of old rifles and SA's and the acp's are what I load for my autos, 230 grain FMJ's.
If I were serious about using the gun, then I would look into trying some different loads for both, although Id be perfectly happy with the ball loads in 45acp the way my gun shoots them. I think with a little experimenting, you could get both to do better, and I have no idea what the factory loads do, as I normally reload for most things. A good factory load may work great, who knows? And the only way to find out, if shop around and see.
Keep in mind too, the groups in the above pic were all shot pretty quickly, DAO. I normally shoot my revolvers that way, and if I slowed down a bit the 45Colt might have been better too, we're only looking at a sample of one there, though other targets were somewhat similar, but I dont normally shoot off a rest or for groups, so, its really not an accuracy test. I base things on what I can do shooting the gun, not what the gun might be able to do, in a vacuum. The reality of the two is usually different.
I see the Governor as a second "specialty" type gun, and would more be carrying it as a second gun in an open holster, than a primary. Still, the way it likes the 45acp, and the fact that they are loaded with moon clips, just for those two reasons Id likely choose it, for the accuracy and speed of a reload. And if I were worried about snakes (Im normally not snakeaphobic
), Id load two or three shot shells, and the rest in 45acp in moon clips (they make two and three round clips), and a couple of full moonclips as reloads. I have an El Paso Saddlery "Tanker" for mine, as I like these for those "second" type specialty guns, as they are easy to just throw on and can carry their own reloads. The Governor is basically the same size as 4" K or N frame, and has a K frame grip, so its not really "big". The Tanker can easily be hidden pretty well with just a light shirt over it, if scaring the natives might be an issue.
jmorris
Member
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2005
- Messages
- 24,280
I don’t have an example of a choked one; however, now I wonder twist direction and threads in choke.
Edit, now I need to find those old bullets I fired, recovered, reloaded and again recovered from my first Colt and first S&W revolvers that have opposite twists. I bet that would be an easy pair to match.
Last edited:
halfmoonclip
Member
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2011
- Messages
- 2,829
Whoa, stop the presses. I was unaware the Governor would accept either moonclips or .45 ACP....
News to me, though there would be an even longer leap from the ACP case to the end of the cylinder/forcing cone.
In any case, I've other revos to shoot the ACP or the Colt...but not the same revolvers.
Moon