Stupid question about available calibers for random firearm platforms

[kayak-man]

I've been knocking around a few crazy ideas for a couple years, the guns that I always thought "well that would be slick" but no one seems to make them.

The general rule of thumb that I've found is that most firearms with a box magazine (semi auto pistols, AR, FAL, AK, etc) are chambered in a rimless cartridge like 9mm or 7.62. On the flip side, most lever action rifles that I'm aware of are chambered in loads like 30-30 or if it's pistol caliber, something like .38/.357 or .44.

How come we seldom see a reversal of that? I'm not saying it would be the greatest thing since removable choke tubes, but I think it would be kind of cool to be able to load up an AR or GLOCK with .44 magnum. Conversely, a lever action rifle in 9mm, 45ACP, or, and I know this sounds crazy... 10mm

I'm probably the only one out there that likes this idea, but I just think it would be nifty to be able to have a lever action rifle in the same caliber as my GLOCK or 1911, or a larger bore revolver and a Sport Utility Rifle in the same caliber.

I'm assuming the most common answers are going to be some creation of: there's no demand for them, there's no money in it, or it seams kind of redundant...

 

[Kleanbore]

One can purchase a semi auto .44 pistol, but the Glock frames not adaptable to the .44. Yo would have to design and tool up for a larger version.

I cannot imagine building an AR-type firearm that could handle the .44 Magnum.

And yes, rimmed sounds are usually not the best choice for a box magazine.

I suppose one could devise a way to make rimless rounds function in a lever gun. The you would have to load up some ammo with flat bullets.

So there are some rather daunting technical obstacles.

Then the business case would be non-existent.

 

[Elkins45]

I suppose one could devise a way to make rimless rounds function in a lever gun. The you would have to load up some ammo with flat bullets.

Is there any reason other than just history that lever guns typically use rimmed rounds? Is there a mechanical reason or is it just that they already are tooled up to make fat bolt faces because the existing single shot cartridges all had rims when lever guns were invented?

 

[CLP]

Handling the 44 Mag would be more difficult than handling the 450 Bushmaster?

 

[Al Thompson]

CLP, bet that rim would be difficult to run through a magazine with any capacity greater than six or so (Ruger rotary magazine).

 

[230RN]

Are you discounting the .303 British and 7.62 X 54R rimmed cartridges which had been used in magazine-fed bolt and full-auto arms for many decades?

Then there's the quite popular lever-action Savage Model 99, chambered in a variety of high powered rimless rounds from .308 Winchester on down. That one had a rotary magazine, similar to the Ruger 10-22's mag, which eliminated both the "rim ride-over" problem and the tubular-magazine "pointy-bullet" problem. Quite popular for quite a few decades. Nine-point-nine decades, to be exact.

And if I'm not mistaken, converting M1 Carbines to .22 centerfire rimmed wildcats was popular for a while... but they never caught on because factory ammo was never produced (among other things).

I personally (talk about crazy !) always felt that a high-powered rimmed cartridge (.311, .30, .270, maybe even 6mm?) derived from the .303 or Russian round in a carefully-built bolt action target platform with the right rifling for a heavy boat-tailed bullet would make a heck of an inherently accurate long-range (1000 yards) target or sniping rifle... mainly because of the wind-bucking potential and the precise headspace control possible with rimmed cartridges. But that's just crazy old me.

So you're not the only crazy one.

Terry

 

[Kleanbore]

I was thinking of extraction (I am not intimately familiar with AR -15 internals) and feeding.

Turns out someone did develop a .44 Magnum AR-15. Had to use a sleeved single column magazine.

Reportedly, he received zero orders.

 

[JT-AR-MG42]

Believe the OP is referring to traditional handgun cartridges, not rifle rounds.

Lack of a viable market would be my guess.

A Glock in .44 magnum? Try a a few shots through a Smith 329 first.
It will give you an understanding why the Auto Mag, Wildey, and Desert Eagle are so large and heavy.

Most handguns have an equivalent chambering for revolver vs. semi.
S&W and Colt made .38 special semis in addition to the Coonan, and Desert Eagle to name some of the semis built for rimmed rounds.
The .25, .32, and .38 ACPs are all easily adaptable to revolvers, but the market would be too small for production.

It is very common to have new revolver cylinders faced for moon clips in a large variety of traditional semi rounds.
Just takes desire and money.

An AR taking rimmed rounds would require re-designing the bolt in addition to the lower or the use of magazine well adapter to hold say, a Desert Eagle 8 round magazine.
Rims larger than the .308 would mean a new design bolt and maybe upper as well.
Any rimmed cartridges requiring a locking breech would have a narrow range with powder burn rates in the current AR gas system.
Not practical for makers as they already provide rimless calibers that cover a wide power range utilizing the same lower
that allows for interchangeability.

Rimless lever guns would require internal changes to the frame, lifter, bolt, and cartridge stop IMO.
Again, it can surely be done, but quality work costs money.

Think it would be too much of a niche market for the manufacturers given the fact that they already cover the power range with rimmed shells.

Elkins,
The rimmed lever guns were a logical procession from the rimmed single shots. Gun makers, then as now, saw no reason to mess with a good thing.
Don't recall any rimless rounds invented before the mid 1890s when semi-autos were being developed for military use anyway.
The Bullards came close though.
JT

 

[jmr40]

I suppose one could devise a way to make rimless rounds function in a lever gun.

Marlin has been chambering the 35 Rem in their lever actions for at least 60 years.

 

[P5 Guy]

And yes, rimmed sounds are usually not the best choice for a box magazine.

I suppose one could devise a way to make rimless rounds function in a lever gun. The you would have to load up some ammo with flat bullets.

So there are some rather daunting technical obstacles.

Then the business case would be non-existent.

Why not a box magazine like the Winchester 95, BLR or Savage 99?
Pointy bullets present no issues in these and the Win95 was chambered in 7.62x54R for the Imperial Russians. The rotary magazine in the Sav99 was quite an innovation at the time.

 

[Kleanbore]

I had completely forgotten about the Marlin 336 in .35 Remington.

Good catch.

 

[turbojohn41]

Id love a 10mm carbine. I know Olympic Arms used to make a 10mm upper but I herd they were not very good. I have a Marin .41 mag that is a great little rifle.

 

[Sunray]

"...an AR-type firearm that could handle the .44 Magnum..." It's entirely doable, but the demand likely isn't there.
"...or Russian round..." Rim isn't flat. Makes for odd manufacturing. Mind you, both Lee-Enfields and the Mosin made dandy sniper rifles, but you do run into NIH, Stateside.

 

[KansasSasquatch]

I think an AR in .44 AMP would be awesome, but I don't think there'd be much demand. And the .44 AMP case head is the same as the 8x57/.30-06/.308 case head, so I'm not sure if an AR-15 bolt head has enough material to make the case head fit. If the cartridge had to be stuffed into an AR-10 I think there's be even less demand.

 

[Tirod]

Aside from the rim/rimless, there are other considerations. Take the Win 94 lever top eject. Sure, you could barrel it in 6.8SPC, and load it with a resilient nosed spire tip same as the .30-30's now available. Ergo, an intermediate cartridge that fits the gun and safely, too.

It won't do much of anything different, or better, other than have a flatter trajectory. It may be "improved," but it's not orders of magnitude better, and it would largely only exist in the mind of the fanboy attempting to justify about 50 yards more lethal range on white tail deer. Well, that is an extreme use situation in that category.

People may like to combine various odd cartridges and guns for the fun of it, but the market overall has some practical considerations. The result has to be an effective tool or it's simply not worth the effort.

Case in point - at one time the 3 Gun competition was strictly limited to .30 caliber, and the result was that nobody competed with the AR15. Competitors knew the gun had it's advantages and kept trying to get into the game with them. One way was to rebarrel and load .30 bullets in .223 ammo - which met the letter of the rules but not the intent and bias against the rifle. It became a game of cat and mouse to get the AR accepted, and it finally was.

Did the .30/.223 make it into the big time then? No, it languished as a handloaders pet, becoming the .300 Whisper, and none of the major 3 Gunners looked at it again. That went on for 30 years until AAC decided it did fit the profile as a good subsonic round, and began marketing it. To get the public's attention they proclaimed it was a good supersonic round, too. No, not so much. It has a shorter range and a lot more bullet drop, putting it right into the same class of loopers as the .30-30 and 7.62 x 39. Other hunting cartridges shoot flatter, need less holdover correction, have more range, and as a result, have been the preferred choice in the AR platform. That's why you see the 6.8 and 6.5 dominant in AR's used by hunters. Simply superior in use, where it counts.

That's why we don't see a lot of oddball combinations. It's a shame in a way, I'd like a 6.8 Win 94, but to do it I'd have to build it myself and load my own, likely restricting capacity to one round in the magazine. And that doesn't cut it for most hunters. So, the project, however nice it seems ballistically on paper, doesn't survive scrutiny for production, and all we will likely ever do is talk about it.

 

[CLP]

CLP, bet that rim would be difficult to run through a magazine with any capacity greater than six or so (Ruger rotary magazine).

Doh! I was thinking in terms of pressures. Of course, didn't AMT solve that problem back in the day with the Automag?

Edit: Nevermind. I just read up on it and noticed the Automag fired a proprietary cartridge (rimless)- I always assumed it was a 44 mag...

It's a shame they don't make that pistol anymore.

 

[WV_Gunner]

The Ruger 44 is a semi auto rifle chambered in .44 Magnum.

 

[The Narrator]

No kinda expert here, but isn't the short answer that gun design isn't arbitrary?

I could be wrong but it seems like if you want a clip that fits in the handle of a gun, you want brass that is more straight on the sides so the clip doesn't need to curve. You also want bullets that are short enough you can wrap your fingers around the handle. Irkonomics. The ammo for that gun is going to be short and straight. Also, from what I have read semi-auto guns are sensitive to feeding different lengths of ammo so there is no reason to have a rim.

If you are designing a revolver, where the bullets come out of a cylinder that is outside your hand, you don't stack the ammo so no straight sides, they don't feed through your hand so no short ammo. A cylinder with holes drilled through it doesn't have the length sensitivity so you can use a rim and allow the total length to vary more like special and magnum from the same thing.

Same on rifles. My dad had a tube magazine .22 that would feed short, long, and long rifle ammo, just like a revolver can, so it makes sense to chamber tube magazine guns for revolver rounds. I have read that tube magazines can let one bullet to poke another and make it go off if the bullets are pointy, so you don't want that. If your rifle has a clip it probably doesn't fit in your hand so the brass sides don't need to be as straight and the clip can curve.

Seems like you can push limits like a desert eagles feeding revolver ammo but it comes down to intelligent design. Guns are usually designed by joes with kids and girlfriends and dogs to support, and those guys don't want to risk their salary designing a clip-in-grip pistol sized to feed 7.62 ruski when only people with some weird giant hand disease could actually wrap their fingers around the clip.

 

[xfyrfiter]

The Automag was a shortened 308 and had a rotary bolt similar to the AR platform, it was also chambered in .357 and.41 all in all a very complex pistol and a lot of tuning necessary.

 

[tommy.duncan]

I have an AR15 in 9mm. It is fun to shoot.
Hay Kayak-man, I am up for a 10mm anything!!