Style Conflict-Older Shooter

[rswartsell]

I will begin by admitting I am among the "veteran" members over 55 years of age.

I have recently been trying to resurrect a discipline, pastime, maybe "hobby" of my younger days. The venerable (and I think honorable) ritual of bullseye competition shooting.

The conflict part comes into play because I am concurrently taking every good course I can find for;

1. Concealed Carry
2. Home defense
3. Combat handgun

The old, archaic bullseye methods I learned long ago are not the same. My practice session this afternoon showed that I sometimes;

1. "Point shot" at a bullseye target
2. "Sighted" (breath control, sight alignment, heartbeat, POP) a combat situation
3. Was confused at times in footwork and stance

I think I am deliberately overstating my case, but I hope to the point that participants in both disciplines can relate.

What advice regarding the apparent conflicts do you have?

 

[browningguy]

I used to shoot bullseye back in the 70's when I was in the Navy, but unfortunately just can't hold the pistol steady enough any more. Honestly I don't know of a cure for you, I just shoot IDPA and 3 gun now and you don't have to be that accurate for that style shooting.

 

[rcmodel]

Think and shoot what won, placed, or showed you in the 'Bullseye Rapid Fire' stages and it will get you by.

Maybe not against Jerry Michlek, but against the average BG every time.

You don't have to be the Fastest Gun to be the one with rounds on target first in a gun-fight.

You don't have too slap the gun up against you chest and rotate your head around 290 degrees like an owl like the guys on TV after every series of shots either.

My head wouldn't turn that far, that fast like the 'Operators' on TV when I was 28 years old!!

rc

 

[9mmepiphany]

The only conflict is that most instructors don't know how to instruct in accuracy techniques anymore. You can't really blame them, because clients really don't want to pay for that instruction. Just think of how many people believe it is enough to be minute of badguy accurate

Two older top flight IPSC (before USPSA existed) shooters used to also be unbelievably accurate. Mickey Fowler and Mike Dalton can hold fantastic groups at 50 yards, but it is deathly boring to teach. My mentor was a World Class IPSC shooter (well, 6th in the world) and was also a highly competitive 10 metre Air Pistol shooter (whihc is much harder than bullseye)

Back to the OP's issues. The trigger press of a defensive or action competition shooter should be exactly that of a bullseye shooter. The only difference is determining how refined a sight picture you need to see before releasing the shot.

1. You shouldn't be point shooting even in a defensive/combat situation.
2. If you determine how refined a sight picture you need, you won't have to think about breath or heart beat.
3. Footwork and stance are irrelevant to accurate shooting...they only make it easier (less to think about) to place a shot accurately.

All accuracy comes down to seeing your sights and pressing the trigger correctly...and that is true in any application

 

[rcmodel]

I think it was Wyatt Earp who said about surviving a gunfight?

In a gun fight... You need to take your time in a hurry
Fast is fine but accuracy is final.
You must learn to be slow in a hurry

That's NRA Bullseye Rapid-Fire in a nutshell.

Do it well, and it will serve you well in any situation.

rc

 

[1911 guy]

I think part of the problem is teaching, as two different skill sets, something that is actually one skill set. 9mm epiphany hit on this in his post. "point shooting" as a skill set simply does not exist. The goal is always to shoot with a sight picture, the skill lies in knowing what refinement is acceptable given the situation.

 

[md2lgyk]

I've been a competitive bullseye shooter for more thyan 30 years. There are no "old, archaic bullseye methods." They're the same now as they ever were. The problem is, all today's shooting "sports" don't require the same discipline and skill set. Bullseye is a skilled discipline; IPSC, IDPA and their ilk are just games.

 

[Mike OTDP]

Precision shooting takes practice. Patient, painstaking practice. Many new shooters don't want to be bothered to learn to shoot really well.

The irony being that the books on combat shooting written in the 1970s and early 1980s all had the same advice - go shoot bullseye for a year or two and lay a solid foundation of shooting technique.

 

[Ankeny]

2. If you determine how refined a sight picture you need, you won't have to think about breath or heart beat.

Depending on the difficulty level of the shot and the skill set of the shooter, the relationship of the bore to the target face can be determined without seeing the sights. At times, seeing the pistol peripherally from your index while primarily focusing on the target is all that is required. I guess I have just never known whether or not that is considered "point shooting". I consider it a "sight picture".

 

[loose noose]

I still remember the term BRASS when we were qualifying with the venerable M-14, B-breathe, R-relax, A-aim, S-slack, S-squeeze in the Marine Corps. Since that time using the handgun with all the instruction I've been taught that the most important factors are what 9mm mentioned "sight alignment & trigger control".

 

[StrawHat]

Once the basics are ingrained, the rest is easy. Go back to the fundamentals of handgun accuracy and get comfortable. After that, the necessary speed will develop with practice.

When I shot competition, I never practiced with a time limit. Anyone can shoot "X" number of shots in a certain amount of time. I would practice correct sight picture and tried to not break a shot the wasn't perfect. In competition, the perfect sight picture came easy and so did the times. I shot PPC for nearly a decade and stayed at the top of my class for about three of them. A small equipment change put me into the bottom of the next class and I struggled to climb to the top. I nearly made it but finally pulled the pin o ocmpetition.

 

[sgt127]

Im an old school shooter. Accuracy is final. Any idiot can whip out a gun and shoot somebody standing 3 feet in fron of them, including me. Thats not so much skill as it is speed. If you are practiced shooter, the front sight will come up between your eye and the target whether you really look for it or not, and then get on the trigger and, you will score hits.

If I have to get into a shootout I WANT to get into it at 25 yards. The odds are very much in my favor at that point. At Muzzle contact distance, the winner is decided by speed, willingness and surprise.

Now, if you haven't practiced drawing and shooting at speed, add that to your skill set, but, realize you already have the most difficult to master skills necessary.

I am always shocked when people really can't get hits at 25 yards. Accuracy should be the foundation of shooting skills in my book.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I guess I have just never known whether or not that is considered "point shooting". I consider it a "sight picture".

My personal definition of point shooting differs from what has become common today. I consider point shooting to be when you don't see the gun at all...like shooting from retention with the gun below your field of vision.

It is a training issue for me to attempt to stop folks from bringing their gun up to eye level and not looking at the sights. I can do that all day and make good hits...found out once, when I wore the wrong pair of glasses to a qualification and still shot in the 80s...but I learned it from practicing sighted fire

I'm not in the majority in my definition...but that's OK too

 

[BobWright]

Find a safe place to shoot with permission: river bank, gravel pit, borrow pit, etc. Take some tin cans, old boxes, chunks of 2 x 4 wood, anything expendable, but no glass.

Spend some time plinking at varying distances and at different size targets. Put the fun into the shooting, while still actually hitting you target.

Stand however you are steadiest. Aim and get the shot off. ("Sights. Squeeze.")

I use to take old 78 rpm records, and every once in awhile fling these into the air for aerial shots, this requires lots of open space. Even dirt clods make good targets. At one place I shot there was often a water-filled pit where ricochets couldn't get out, and floating empty 12 ga. hulls were the target.

Bob Wright

P.S. Two things: (1)Make sure its a safe place to shoot. (2) Clean up after yourself.

 

[rswartsell]

I would like to thank all those who have taken the time to share in an effort to un-complicate my "mind-set" regarding my "skill-set" (my first impulse was to say un-f*** my thinking, but we all know I'm way to civilized for language like that!). It seems pretty obvious now not to abandon the fundamentals practiced (with varying degrees of success) for 30+ years. The attempt was going in the wrong direction.

I hesitate to overly criticize the instructors as I have picked up something of value from each experience, but upon reflection they may be geared towards those new to shooting with very different reasons for doing it.

It is MUCH harder to bullseye (to the same standards) than in years past. I don't need to always be a winner, but seeing improvement will definitely be helpful. I think at this point it is the right "game" for me even at slightly advanced years.

Thanks again, good clarification to be had here.

P.S. To share some of the old fundamental exercises I am falling back on;

1. weight on end of string, wrapped around rod held horizontally in 2 hands, roll it up and then down 50 times (wax on, wax off)
2. coin on barrel trick (boy that's a tough one right now)
3. endless dry-firing at the TV
4. and of course, to the range as much as my ammo budget allows

Feels like old times.

 

[HighExpert]

My wife says watching bullseye is like watching paint dry. I told her that people watch chess tournaments. She said that was like watching grass grow. Then I got her a couple of bullseye guns and now it is a worthy sport. Most of the new shooters don't want to make the investment to get really good. It is too bad. They don't know what they are missing.

 

[SwampWolf]

I love Bullseye shooting and will make the argument that it's the toughest shooting discipline extant, especially when the shooting is relegated to "open sights" (to my knowledge, there's never been a perfect, all x's hit, score fired in all of the many decades of Bullseye competition). As md2lgyk noted, "Bullseye is a skilled discipline; IPSC, IDPA and their ilk are just games." For those who haven't tried Bullseye and/or those who might disagree with the premise that there's nothing to compare with Bullseye shooting in terms of it being the hardest to do well in, try holding your handgun with one hand, standing on two feet, with open sights at a target fifty yards away, and placing your shots in the ten ring and hoping to nick an X on occasion. Of course, windy conditions only add to the difficulty. You have ten minutes to fire ten rounds. Try it sometime.

 

[rswartsell]

Just tried double action (dry fire) with a nickel on the barrel of a model 19.

Improved by trying, there is hope for all, including seniors!

 

[StrawHat]

rswartsell

I was never a fan of the nickel trick. The way I see it, you are concentrating on the coin not the technique. I found it better to dry fire at a blank wall or piece of black paper. Concentrate on the sight picture and squeeze of the shot. You will see if your sights move. (If they don't move, neither would the coin.) Best of luck getting it back together, the basics will win!

 

[MrBorland]

I started dabbling in bullseye (well, practicing for bullseye ) in the off-season. To me, there are more similarities than differences between it, and, say, IDPA/USPSA: One simply needs to see what they need to see when they need to see it, and break the shot cleanly. IOW, application of the fundamentals. They're just applied faster in action pistol type shooting.

I was never a fan of the nickel trick. The way I see it, you are concentrating on the coin not the technique...Concentrate on the sight picture and squeeze of the shot. You will see if your sights move.

The coin drill is a focused and specific trigger control drill, not necessarily a "shooting well" drill. It's meant to isolate the mechanics of the trigger pull from other elements of a good shot. If one is using it appropriately, placing focus on the front sight or the coin itself is counterproductive, IMO. Focus should be on relaxing and stroking the trigger smoothly and consistently.

 

[SwampWolf]

I started dabbling in bullseye (well, practicing for bullseye ) in the off-season. To me, there are more similarities than differences between it, and, say, IDPA/USPSA: One simply needs to see what they need to see when they need to see it, and break the shot cleanly. IOW, application of the fundamentals. They're just applied faster in action pistol type shooting.

I agree. It's hard to explain, but the "fundamentals" needed to do well in Bullseye shooting also apply to "combat oriented" shooting disciplines. You just need to "speed up" the sight picture and the trigger pull. Bullseye shooting merely establishes a "starting point".

 

[9mmepiphany]

I was never a fan of the nickel trick. The way I see it, you are concentrating on the coin not the technique.

You're confusing techniques.

The coin technique is to learn control of the trigger (Trigger Management), not to control the sight's movement...that is just a by-product.

There are different levels of techniques of Dry Fire. Some of them even involve having your eyes closed and not extending the gun at all...it is a technique to learn to see the sights faster and to shorten the lag between perceiving the aligned sights and pressing the trigger

 

[Scooter567]

I've been shooting PPC for past few months and I just happened to be at the range last week practicing for that right before the .22 bullseye match. I thought I would try bullseye so I practiced at 7, 10 and 12 yards to get ready for the match that night. Man was I surprised when they set up at 50 feet! I was using open sights and had a lot of fun with it. I think it's great practice for PPC and all other types of shooting. It can't hurt, remembering to slow down and "aim small", right? Ended up with 14 10 pt shots. I felt pretty good about that for my first time.

 

[rswartsell]

Good on ya Scooter!

Stay with it.