Substitutin' Powder

[Jcinnb]

What goes in to finding a suitable substitute for a popular but inaccessible powder?

I am sure burn rate is a biggie, but there has to be more to it than that. I guess. Is size, leading to volume a factor, though we measure weight and by extension mass and not volume?

There are some powders, on the burn rate chart, adjacent to some I want, but have not found in 10 months. Never even heard of some of these that are so close in burn rate. Leads me to question why?

Thanks in advance, as always, you guys are the best.

 

[627PCFan]

Can you find substitute hands when something goes south?

I found powder positioning to cause big inconsistent in cases with quick powders like clays and Red dot in 38/357 cases.

 

[moxie]

Don't go to a burn rate chart. Go to a reloading handbook.

Find a different powder that will give similar results to those you had with your old powder with the same bullet.

 

[Ifishsum]

I check my loading books for the specific cartridge, and look for powders that offer similar velocity and pressure to what I was using previously. Another approach is to list the powders you know you can get, and see if it's listed in the load books for what you want to do. Burn rate charts will get you in the ballpark but sometimes a similar rate powder doesn't work well with a cartridge for volume/density reasons (or others) and won't have data listed.

Of course you're basically starting over as far as load development - very few powders can be directly substituted for others so you need to use published data for the new powder in working up your new loads.

 

[gamestalker]

I think most in not all of us that have been reloading for a long time, have had to find a suitable powder to temporarily substitute for another. But rather than rely on burn rate as my guide, I have always used published data, and the relevant performance details, to help me decide which one try. It's actually no different of a process than picking a suitable powder for a cartridge I'm loading for the first time.

The criteria I use is load density, pressures at both ends, and velocity match up. As long as the above properties are fairly consistent with the previous powder I was using, the burn rate should be fairly close to what I was previously using anyway.

GS

 

[Lost Sheep]

Thanks for asking our advice.

What goes in to finding a suitable substitute for a popular but inaccessible powder?

I am sure burn rate is a biggie, but there has to be more to it than that. I guess. Is size, leading to volume a factor, though we measure weight and by extension mass and not volume?

There are some powders, on the burn rate chart, adjacent to some I want, but have not found in 10 months. Never even heard of some of these that are so close in burn rate. Leads me to question why?

Thanks in advance, as always, you guys are the best.

Good question, and particularly relevant in recent days.

If you cannot find load data for a substitute powder in established loading manuals, the powder manufacturers' web sites or other authoritative sources with access to laboratories and testing facilities, there MIGHT BE A REASON. The most believable reason (to me) is that the combination is inadvisable.

If you CAN find load data, then, yes, finding a powder with similar burn rate and weight/volume density is a good idea since similar such characteristics have a better chance of duplicating the performance of your original powder choice.

Note that while load recipes are commonly given in weight, most reloaders (and all mass-production factories) charge cases by volume.

Your first (and central) question, "What goes in to..." is complex and difficult. For most of us, it is a trial and error process, finding what propellant (and charge quantity) goes best with a cartridge/bullet/case/primer/firearm combination. We narrow the search by choosing like burn rates, energy density, weight density, granule shape, powder type (double-base, etc), but it really is an empirical process (translate that to hit-or-miss) to find a propellant that duplicates another.

Good luck.

Lost Sheep

 

[oneounceload]

I go to the powder maker's website as they have the latest TESTED data

 

[Mac45]

A burn rate chart only shows you the relative rate.
In other words, powder A burns faster than powder B.
It doesn't tell you HOW MUCH faster.

Stick with published data.

 

[ATLDave]

One other point re: burn rate charts. Burn rate is pressure-sensitive. And that sensitivity is non-linear. One powder might burn faster at 15,000 PSI peak, but another faster at 30,000. Internal ballistics seems to be quite a complex subject. Even the powder manufacturers disagree about some things.

 

[blarby]

Don't go to a burn rate chart. Go to a reloading handbook.

Thats the hum-dinger, right there.

If you gave some more detail like, oh, the caliber, the gun, and the projectile- we might be able to help a wee bit more.

 

[greyling22]

The burn rate chart is only the crudest of guides. A first step. Lets say your preferred powder sits on the chart at 27. Well, powders from 20-35 will probably be somewhat similar and have published loads for that caliber so you can look for them on the shelf. If you buy one, use a recipe found in a load manual, but that is no guarantee that it will shoot accurately in your gun. It's basically trial and error. Good luck.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I check my loading books for the specific cartridge, and look for powders that offer similar velocity and pressure to what I was using previously. Another approach is to list the powders you know you can get, and see if it's listed in the load books for what you want to do. Burn rate charts will get you in the ballpark but sometimes a similar rate powder doesn't work well with a cartridge for volume/density reasons (or others) and won't have data listed.

Of course you're basically starting over as far as load development - very few powders can be directly substituted for others so you need to use published data for the new powder in working up your new loads.

Good question, and particularly relevant in recent days.

If you cannot find load data for a substitute powder in established loading manuals, the powder manufacturers' web sites or other authoritative sources with access to laboratories and testing facilities, there MIGHT BE A REASON. The most believable reason (to me) is that the combination is inadvisable.

If you CAN find load data, then, yes, finding a powder with similar burn rate and weight/volume density is a good idea since similar such characteristics have a better chance of duplicating the performance of your original powder choice.

Note that while load recipes are commonly given in weight, most reloaders (and all mass-production factories) charge cases by volume.

Your first (and central) question, "What goes in to..." is complex and difficult. For most of us, it is a trial and error process, finding what propellant (and charge quantity) goes best with a cartridge/bullet/case/primer/firearm combination. We narrow the search by choosing like burn rates, energy density, weight density, granule shape, powder type (double-base, etc), but it really is an empirical process (translate that to hit-or-miss) to find a propellant that duplicates another.

Good luck.

Lost Sheep

Those are two very good posts there! I'll add something too, if you're looking for a good powder to load a cartridge because the powder you usually use is unavailable you can ask other reloaders which powders they use. Then you can go to the manuals and develop a safe load for the cartridge you're shooting. There are usually several powders that will deliver good accurate ammo for a particular cartridge/bullet combination. None of us can know all the powders that will do well so we share the information and we all learn.

BTW, what are you loading and what powder were you using that you cannot find lately?

 

[Lj1941]

Sustitution

A person can really get in trouble using a burn rate chart. Most of the burn rate charts for example show Bullseye at the top-the fastest.This varies by who is publishing the chart. I have seen Red Dot listed as both faster and slower than Bullseye.In my experience these two are interchangable but for caliber, NOT by charge weight.My personal opinion is to find printed data that may not be the latest and carefully work up a load and disregard the burn rate charts.I use old Alliant data like 2004-2005 and find data for calibers that they don't list data for that particular powder.I have a large amount of Red Dot that I have started to use for 9MM.I used the 2004 data for a starting point and worked up from there. New is not always best. A person must adapt in these hard times by using what is available.YMMV.

 

[HexHead]

I don't just "substitute" powders. Go to your loading manual, pick another powder and work up the load. It's not that big a deal.

 

[oldpapps]

"Substitutin' Powder
What goes in to finding a suitable substitute for a popular but inaccessible powder?

I am sure burn rate is a biggie, but there has to be more to it than that."

The question as stated is confusing (to me). Just find the adjoining powder on the 'burn rate' table and used the same loading data as the original? Not only NO but... you get the idea on that one. To use the listings on a 'burn rate' table to pick possible substitutes for further investigation, yes.

With the shortages of components, this is becoming a problem. I would most likely just skip looking at the 'burn rate' tables. They are interesting but not what is needed to load. Go to your respected, sources (I like to compare a number of sources for consistence) and pick several other powders that look promising. Then look for them where you buy powder. Fined one? Good, the starting load data is in your book/s.

 

[Potatohead]

Note that while load recipes are commonly given in weight, most reloaders (and all mass-production factories) charge cases by volume

What exactly do you mean here? They just want to fill the cases to a certain level?

 

[cfullgraf]

What exactly do you mean here? They just want to fill the cases to a certain level?

No, except for the powder measures such as the RCBS Chargemaster with the integral scale, powder measures measure a volume of powder.

The reloader weighs the charge thrown and adjusts the volume of the powder measure's cavity until the desired weight is obtained.

Hope this helps.

 

[cpileri]

?/

Are you looking for formula conversions/
Like Blackpowder by weight = 35% of 4198?
example: 100gr blackpowder = 35gr 4198
or
by weight Primex 513 x 1.15= by weight Lil'Gun?
40gr Primex 513= 46gr Lil'Gun

Stuff like that?

C-

 

[Potatohead]

No, except for the powder measures such as the RCBS Chargemaster with the integral scale, powder measures measure a volume of powder.

The reloader weighs the charge thrown and adjusts the volume of the powder measure's cavity until the desired weight is obtained.

Hope this helps.

Oh.Duh.Gotcha.Thanks

 

[Jcinnb]

I have trying to find some Varget and my 4064 is getting pretty low. Trying to plan ahead.

 

[Lost Sheep]

What exactly do you mean here? They just want to fill the cases to a certain level?

cfullgraf answered for me exactly what I would have said.

I would only add that volumetric measuring as done by most loaders and factories is simply the most expedient method of performing the physical task and weight-specification is the most expedient method of sharing information with other loaders. That is all I was trying to say.

While it is not exactly on point with the theme of this thread, there is some virtue in "filling the cases to a certain level". Usually it means getting a case filled nearly or completely to the base of the bullet. Not only does this assure consistent ignition (the propellant cannot find itself far away from or piled right next to the primer), but a well-regulated burn and resultant time-pressure curve.

A second virtue of having the case nearly full (or at least more than half-way full) is that a double charged case overflows, giving you unmistakable evidence that something went wrong. A too-lightly charged case (squib load) is easier to spot if the normal charge brings the powder level higher, too.

Lost Sheep

 

[rsnell]

Stay with published data from reputable sources.

Bob Snell

 

[Comrade Mike]

Just experiment with your bullet of choice with different powders. That way when supplies are tight you have a multitude of personal load data for various powders. For example I use both 4895's and 4064 in my Garand. I have a load for all three powders.