Suggesions sought: Riot shotguns and loads

Old Hobo

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South-East USA
The title is rather self-explanatory. I've my own ideas, yet seek the advise of others.

Gauge: I'm a fan of the 20 gauge, yet I'm totally open to ideas that prove me wrong and advise using a 12-gauge.

Cartridges: I'm one who looks to small-sized buckshot for defense rounds when attackers target your home. I want more pellets heading out, but know that they must have some mass, else the cartridge could prove useless.

As civilization breaks down, one is forced to consider such dark topics. Wish we didn't have to, yet to deny that which is currently happening is childish and could prove fatal.
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Do your research, make your choice - but it will be hard to beat basic 00Buck rounds in standard 2 3/4".... with nine .33 pellets... If you do your part - it's a definite one shot fight ender with a center of mass hit at less than 15 meters... I'll be watching this thread to learn if there's some new wrinkle I've missed...
 
Go 12 for the greater availability and variety of shells. With the lower velocity, 1100-1200fps 1.5oz buckshot loads recoil is still manageable with a heavier payload than 20ga.

The 1oz, standard velocity 14-1500fps rifled slugs aren't too bad either, and Ive gotten excellent accuracy from my 18in Improved Cylinder barrel even out to 100 yds, though the low velocity (1200fps) slugs drop too much at that range, IMO. If you're running a smoothbore with a simple brass bead sight, guestimating the drop is tough. Of course a rifled barrel with adjustable sights can compensate.

The heavy load (1.5 oz) , high velocity (1450ish) 2 3/4 shells are pretty punishing and the 3" magnums are downright brutal, so I avoid them, but if you're Charles Atlas I have no doubt they will flatten a two-legged creature at close range. I guess Im a "girly mon"....

Birdshot still has its uses in the wastelands for hunting. A properly "cut" birdshot shell can be an effective improvised slug if necessary and they are cheap enough to stock up large quantities.
 
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Most 20 gauge buckshot shells are only available in #2 (.27 caliber) or #3 (.25 caliber) buckshot. Most 410 and 12 gauge buckshot shells are loaded with either 00 (.33) or 000 (.36) buckshot. I prefer using the larger buckshot myself. And you can always get reduced loads for a 12 gauge.

I am one of the odd ducks and like using 410's loaded with 3" 000 buckshot shells. Those 5 pellets out of a 3" 410 shell are moving just as fast as 9 pellets out of a 2 3/4" 12 gauge shell.
 
No matter what shot size there will always be more pellets in a 12 ga. You will find 12 ga shells a LOT easier that 20's. It has been all but impossible to find 20 ga shells of any type for several years. They are just now starting to show up again on store shelves. And slug and buckshot 20 ga loads are even harder to find.

There just isn't much difference in recoil. It comes down to the individual load and a lot of 20 ga loads overlap 12 and from equal weight guns recoil will often be the same. But since if everything else is equal a 20 is about 1 pound lighter than a 12 and they often recoil more.

That doesn't mean that I think a 20 is inadequate. It will get the job done 95% as well as a 12. And for a lot of people the smaller, lighter gun is more important than that 5% better performance. I use a 20 for a lot of my hunting, when I can get ammo for it.

But if buying a dedicated personal defense shotgun, I'd lean hard toward a 12 for no other reason than ammo availability and versatility.
 
The money makes no sense, but I drool over the Mossberg retrograde.

No clue at all on function or durability, but I’m looking at tokarev tx3 shotguns myself.
 
For the reasons listed above, the 12 gauge is the best choice.
If you're recoil sensitive, look into Reduce Recoil shells and better recoil pads from Limbsaver and Pachmayr.

For shells that put out more shot but offer good penetration, the #1 buckshot is said to be ballistically the perfect load, offering more pellets then 00 buck, but more penetration then #4 buck. the down size is it's not as easily available as 00, and I don't think anyone makes it in a reduced recoil version.

As for the gun, most any good grade pump is the way to go.
The less accessories you put on it, the better.
Just because someone says "Ya gotta have this" doesn't mean YOU gotta have it. Less is More.
 
12 gauge Mossy 500, preferably used, because it's cheap, ammo is ubiquitous, and as powerful as is any use for social work.

Add a Shockwave for mobile use, and a second full size for the other end of the house, and you're about setup.
 
I don't disagree, but...are you sure a shotgun is the way to go for that task?
Uh inner city large group, I'd take one over a single projectile. It's not perfect but pushing a cannon with canister shot is slow and followup shots aren't very quick either... every situation is so unique and dynamic best is really not possible.
 
If you're looking for a personal defense AND survival gun, the only gauge you should consider is 12. Ammo is presently more available with more options, and given any sort of shortage from a local run or ban to the end of the world, is the most likely you are to find. Mad Max didn't tote a 20 GA double barrel.

I've never been a fan of the dedicated combat shotgun for home defense. I'm not planning on doing any offensive CQB or door breaching in any circumstance, and I don't feel the need to look cool at the range. Everybody already knows I'm cool, or if they don't they will after I fire a few rounds. I DO like a rock solid and well proven design with a relatively short barrel, an open choke and few snaggy accessories tacked on. A "bird" gun with a 21-24" barrel in the hands of a skilled shooter is every bit as deadly as the most tacticool black shotgun out there, and much better for crawling into the brambles and filling a stew pot with rabbit. The 2 designs presently available as new arms would be the Mossberg 500 and Rem 870. I personally prefer the 870, but there's nothing wrong with a Mossy. Both are stupid popular and common among the general population and LE, and well supported with OEM and aftermarket accessories. A Win 12 or Ithaca M37 could also be considered. If you want a mag tube extension and light rail that clamps onto said extension (or is an integral part of it), they're out there. Just don't get a snaggy one. Duct tape and a contact flashlight has served many well. Smooth is fast, fast is lethal. For this reason, I absolutely prefer a naked bead barrel over a vent rib for such work, and will shun any sort of rifle sight or optic on such a gun. You point the shotgun son. You should be able to close your eyes, shoulder the gun, and hit a man sized target at 20 yards. If you can't, practice more.

Interchangeable choke tubes are a bonus. If you find an old fixed choke gun, find one with IC choke, an old cylinder bore slug barrel, or have a tighter choke reamed out to IC by your local gunsmith.

For loads, I follow the smaller pellet theory. I stoke my scattergun with #4 Naked (not buffered) buck. Most of these you find are made in Europe. I think my most recent ones are S&B. Plastic shot buffer is bad JuJu fired in a confined space. Learned that the hard way in a large pit goose blind firing buffered bismuth and spending the better part of the best shooting time working plastic bits out of my left eye while my buddies filled their bags with honkers. Standard 2.75" shells, as we have a couple of oldies in the fleet also and I don't need more recoil or stopping power. I keep 00 and foster slugs at the hunting camp as black bears are my most likely threat. Find some of the cheapest BB shot steel shells you can for practice shooting. The blast and recoil will be quite similar to full power buck or slugs, although the pattern will be tighter than with #4 naked buck generally.
 
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Mossberg 500/590 is a good choice. They haven't gone through bankruptcy and been reformed recently, unlike the other popular option. So I'd have more confidence in a Mossberg out of the box.

As has already been said, 12ga is easy to find, offers more variety, and more pellets than 20ga. Low recoil offerings in 00 or #4 buck would suffice.
 
If you're looking for a personal defense AND survival gun, the only gauge you should consider is 12. Ammo is presently more available with more options, and given any sort of shortage from a local run or ban to the end of the world, is the most likely you are to find. Mad Max didn't tote a 20 GA double barrel.

I've never been a fan of the dedicated combat shotgun for home defense. I'm not planning on doing any offensive CQB or door breaching in any circumstance, and I don't feel the need to look cool at the range. Everybody already knows I'm cool, or if they don't they will after I fire a few rounds. I DO like a rock solid and well proven design with a relatively short barrel, an open choke and few snaggy accessories tacked on. A "bird" gun with a 21-24" barrel in the hands of a skilled shooter is every bit as deadly as the most tacticool black shotgun out there, and much better for crawling into the brambles and filling a stew pot with rabbit. The 2 designs presently available as new arms would be the Mossberg 500 and Rem 870. I personally prefer the 870, but there's nothing wrong with a Mossy. Both are stupid popular and common among the general population and LE, and well supported with OEM and aftermarket accessories. A Win 12 or Ithaca M37 could also be considered. If you want a mag tube extension and light rail that clamps onto said extension (or is an integral part of it), they're out there. Just don't get a snaggy one. Duct tape and a contact flashlight has served many well. Smooth is fast, fast is lethal. For this reason, I absolutely prefer a naked bead barrel over a vent rib for such work, and will shun any sort of rifle sight or optic on such a gun. You point the shotgun son. You should be able to close your eyes, shoulder the gun, and hit a man sized target at 20 yards. If you can't, practice more.

Interchangeable choke tubes are a bonus. If you find an old fixed choke gun, find one with IC choke, an old cylinder bore slug barrel, or have a tighter choke reamed out to IC by your local gunsmith.

For loads, I follow the smaller pellet theory. I stoke my scattergun with #4 Naked (not buffered) buck. Most of these you find are made in Europe. I think my most recent ones are S&B. Plastic shot buffer is bad JuJu fired in a confined space. Learned that the hard way in a large pit goose blind firing buffered bismuth and spending the better part of the best shooting time working plastic bits out of my left eye while my buddies filled their bags with honkers. Standard 2.75" shells, as we have a couple of oldies in the fleet also and I don't need more recoil or stopping power. I keep 00 and foster slugs at the hunting camp as black bears are my most likely threat. Find some of the cheapest BB shot steel shells you can for practice shooting. The blast and recoil will be quite similar to full power buck or slugs, although the pattern will be tighter than with #4 naked buck generally.
I've not seen unbuffered buck for the 20 yet but something I had never considered. Always something new to learn and consider
 
FWIW - and keeping in mind that’s random advice from a guy on the internet - I would be comfortable with 20 ga shells and #4 Buck. Indoors, potentially shooting through drywall into bedrooms is an issue of concern. 00 Buck will penetrate exterior house walls, for example. Paul Harvey made a couple of vids testing various Buck rounds for penetration/overpenetration. I’m convinced on #4 Buck being the right trade off. Others may have well reasoned opinions that differ.
 
I would go with either a 18” 870 12ga with a plus 2 magazine , or a 20” Mossberg 590 12ga with a 9 shot magazine . I would use buckshot and pattern the gun at your furthest distance and try different buckshot .
 
I'm setting up a 870 defender right now. It is at the LGS getting the barrel shortened and a new bead installed.
I am planning to order a weapon light and mount, a reciever mounted ammo carrier, and a sling.
Some people might consider my choices as being too many accessories but I want to be able to grab one thing and go out the door when the dog is giving the alert. Of course I'm referring to four-legged troublemakers only.
 
Sending my Benelli clone barrel off for Remchokes.
HD, 3 Gun and Turkey rig......all in one :)
 
500/590 or an 870. I feel like for a HD or strictly defensive shotgun I would go with a mossberg. Don't know how to really break down my thought process on that because I have multiples of both and am fond of both. I think it's because it's ingrained in me to treat my 870's nicer.
 
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You cant go wrong with either a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 in 12-gauge. I myself went with the Moss 500 about 25 years ago, simply because of price. I got a great deal on the combo unit with two barrels, the 18" riot barrel and the 24" hunting barrel. It's been a solid performer and I basically use it just as a house gun with the short barrel and loaded with 12-gauge 00 buck shot.
moss500.jpg
 
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