Nathaniel Firethorn
Member
Oleg, that's a damn good idea. I hope more people get it.
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Suicide at the range
- Thread starter Braz
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TOR, you are forgetting or ignoring the effect of the suicide on the people who love him or her. Or even the people who find the body. Suicides cause emotional damage and financial burdens to other people. Often those are the people that love them.
They end their own pain at the cost of inflicting a great deal of pain on others.
That's selfish.
And one of the reasons we have seen a rise in suicide in this country is this coddling attitude that excuses the selfishness.
And unlike the paraplegic, they have a choice.
They end their own pain at the cost of inflicting a great deal of pain on others.
That's selfish.
And one of the reasons we have seen a rise in suicide in this country is this coddling attitude that excuses the selfishness.
And unlike the paraplegic, they have a choice.
Kaylee
Member
I guess I'll chime in here. My little brother hanged himself about a year ago. Determined little bugger -- we pieced together that his lady friend came by to see if he was okay while he was in the middle of writing his note. He convinced her he was, she left, you can guess the rest.
Anyhow.
I've finally come to the conclusion that at least most of the time there is indeed some chemical stuff going on underneath, making the emotional events more a trigger than a cause.
This was hard for me to come to undertand, as I came very much from the "suck it up, grow stronger, drive on" mindset I see here before I got the chance to see it all close up.
Heck, we see this in our own lives all the time.
Just think of the last time you just about lost your temper over something someone said or did. Was it really what they said or did... or did the statement just scratch an already tender part of your psyche? Same thing I think, just on a much more dramatic scale. Thus, we see folks offing themselves for what seem trivial reasons to the rest of us.
Once someone's emotionally far enough gone that suicide seems a legitimate way out to them, I honestly don't think they can rationally see the impact of their decisions. It doesn't make it right perhaps, but to me anyhow it makes it a whole lot more understandable.
And finally, with all due respect....
No one who's actually experienced the love of God could possibly believe the "they'll burn in hell" story. Luckily, no one tried to feed me that line of tripe once upon a time...
don't judge where ya ain't walked.
-K
Anyhow.
I've finally come to the conclusion that at least most of the time there is indeed some chemical stuff going on underneath, making the emotional events more a trigger than a cause.
This was hard for me to come to undertand, as I came very much from the "suck it up, grow stronger, drive on" mindset I see here before I got the chance to see it all close up.
Heck, we see this in our own lives all the time.
Just think of the last time you just about lost your temper over something someone said or did. Was it really what they said or did... or did the statement just scratch an already tender part of your psyche? Same thing I think, just on a much more dramatic scale. Thus, we see folks offing themselves for what seem trivial reasons to the rest of us.
Once someone's emotionally far enough gone that suicide seems a legitimate way out to them, I honestly don't think they can rationally see the impact of their decisions. It doesn't make it right perhaps, but to me anyhow it makes it a whole lot more understandable.
And finally, with all due respect....
No one who's actually experienced the love of God could possibly believe the "they'll burn in hell" story. Luckily, no one tried to feed me that line of tripe once upon a time...
don't judge where ya ain't walked.
-K
hops
Member
What Kaylee said.
My little brother made a significant effort at it, 7 years ago. Knowing his life from day 1 to the end, I can comprehend his action. I do not agree with it, but I comprehend it.
Sent me in to a deep depression (that and 2 other events; divorce and crappy job). Friends and family were concerned for me, although I knew I had a tempoary problem to deal with and did not need a permanent solution.
Funny, thing is that GUNS helped a lot to get me out of the depression (best friend). I forgot how much I missed shooting.
My little brother made a significant effort at it, 7 years ago. Knowing his life from day 1 to the end, I can comprehend his action. I do not agree with it, but I comprehend it.
Sent me in to a deep depression (that and 2 other events; divorce and crappy job). Friends and family were concerned for me, although I knew I had a tempoary problem to deal with and did not need a permanent solution.
Funny, thing is that GUNS helped a lot to get me out of the depression (best friend). I forgot how much I missed shooting.
Missouri Mule
Member
My father committed suicide with a handgun four years ago next Tuesday.
You are correct Suicide is never the answer.
The song says "Suicide is painless...".
Take my word for it that could not be further from the truth!
I own many guns and really enjoy shooting.
Funny though, since dad took his own life like he did I really don't enjoy hunting anymore. Not sure why...
I somehow thought my fathers suicide might change my views on guns and private ownership , etc... It didn't!!!!!!
I will never give up my guns or my freedom.
I am telling you guys, jokes about suicide are not funny!
All he said to me in his note was he is sorry.
Your family has to go on knowing what you did.
That should be reason enough to get help and to go on living.
I am not telling looking for sypmathy or anything else.
I know first hand how tough it is to deal with suicide in your family.
You are correct Suicide is never the answer.
The song says "Suicide is painless...".
Take my word for it that could not be further from the truth!
I own many guns and really enjoy shooting.
Funny though, since dad took his own life like he did I really don't enjoy hunting anymore. Not sure why...
I somehow thought my fathers suicide might change my views on guns and private ownership , etc... It didn't!!!!!!
I will never give up my guns or my freedom.
I am telling you guys, jokes about suicide are not funny!
All he said to me in his note was he is sorry.
Your family has to go on knowing what you did.
That should be reason enough to get help and to go on living.
I am not telling looking for sypmathy or anything else.
I know first hand how tough it is to deal with suicide in your family.
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
FWIW, i didnt think Yohan's comment was disrespectful or offensive. its a volatile subject matter, and each one of us seems to have a friend or family member that has attempted or been successful at taking their own life. it affects our life and outlook on death on levels we dont even begin to understand.
our conscious thought pattern tells us that we are hurt more by loosing the individual. we make ourselves out to be the victims and cry out in protest "How could they do this to me??"
isnt that also a selfish sentiment?
humans develop a dependancy on other humans to the point of it being a weakness. our individual activities can all be completed solo. its when our actions involve another party that outside help is advisable. but we then start relying on outside help for those individual activities, and i feel this is harmful. it destroys the concept of self-sufficiency. we forget how to rely on ourselves and call upon our own inner strengths. we therefore run the risk of weakening ourselves as individuals in efforts to pool our resources.
our subconscious thoughts still seem to point to divine retribution self-murder is supposed to bear. the christian idea that 'bad people' go to a fiery place of torment plagues many. feel free to PM me if you'd like to continue that part of the subject, as it will definitely go off topic and what i have to say about hellfire, condemnation, the soul will probably offend some and i'd not like to get on the mods bad side.
our conscious thought pattern tells us that we are hurt more by loosing the individual. we make ourselves out to be the victims and cry out in protest "How could they do this to me??"
isnt that also a selfish sentiment?
humans develop a dependancy on other humans to the point of it being a weakness. our individual activities can all be completed solo. its when our actions involve another party that outside help is advisable. but we then start relying on outside help for those individual activities, and i feel this is harmful. it destroys the concept of self-sufficiency. we forget how to rely on ourselves and call upon our own inner strengths. we therefore run the risk of weakening ourselves as individuals in efforts to pool our resources.
our subconscious thoughts still seem to point to divine retribution self-murder is supposed to bear. the christian idea that 'bad people' go to a fiery place of torment plagues many. feel free to PM me if you'd like to continue that part of the subject, as it will definitely go off topic and what i have to say about hellfire, condemnation, the soul will probably offend some and i'd not like to get on the mods bad side.
BamBam
Member
While I agree that suicide is often a selfish act, I will say that many times it is brought on by psychosis.
Even if a person seems to have the world on a string, they may be suffering from depression and every day is misery. For some of these people, suicide seems like the only relief.
Even if a person seems to have the world on a string, they may be suffering from depression and every day is misery. For some of these people, suicide seems like the only relief.
Braz
Member
(My Friend Marika responds)
Braz,
I want you to share with your buddies my thoughts about what what happened to us last Sat. at the range - First and formost I so appreciate the feelings and thoughts sent to "us"about what happened. Let me assure all of you that the experience, even though it was something I NEVER expected or wanted to see, made me stronger and value the life we were given more precious. I have very mixed emotions.......... I am sad for the man, I am sad for you, Braz, because I know you were horrified that you took a lifelong friend to a place to learn about her gun and learn confidence and she witnessed a tragedy. That's O.K. - I believe everything happens for a reason - I learned a lot from that experience - how strong I truly am, how powerful our weapons are, and how they should be used. I will go back to the range with you because I choose to NOT be afraid but to be in control of my life and safety. That's what's its all about isn't it?
I agree with the response that "Suicide is a permanent solution to temporary problems" except in the case of terminal illness - and then I still have my doubts..........but that's my own feelings........I just wish we had a minute to talk with that man - maybe that's just my "maternal instinct".
Anyway, let me assure you that you did good by me and I have respect for you and all of us that own guns for the right reasons. I am a TEXAN after all !!
Stronger & Tougher - me
Braz,
I want you to share with your buddies my thoughts about what what happened to us last Sat. at the range - First and formost I so appreciate the feelings and thoughts sent to "us"about what happened. Let me assure all of you that the experience, even though it was something I NEVER expected or wanted to see, made me stronger and value the life we were given more precious. I have very mixed emotions.......... I am sad for the man, I am sad for you, Braz, because I know you were horrified that you took a lifelong friend to a place to learn about her gun and learn confidence and she witnessed a tragedy. That's O.K. - I believe everything happens for a reason - I learned a lot from that experience - how strong I truly am, how powerful our weapons are, and how they should be used. I will go back to the range with you because I choose to NOT be afraid but to be in control of my life and safety. That's what's its all about isn't it?
I agree with the response that "Suicide is a permanent solution to temporary problems" except in the case of terminal illness - and then I still have my doubts..........but that's my own feelings........I just wish we had a minute to talk with that man - maybe that's just my "maternal instinct".
Anyway, let me assure you that you did good by me and I have respect for you and all of us that own guns for the right reasons. I am a TEXAN after all !!
Stronger & Tougher - me
BamBam
Member
Marika,
Thanks for letting us know how this affected you.
Your reply was first class.
Thanks for letting us know how this affected you.
Your reply was first class.
tw1112
Member
Wow, I am really sorry to hear that happen and that you had to be there to experience that. 
I think with the world the way it is and the economy and everything to way it is, people are getting really depressed and more and more people consider suicide to escape from it all. It's really sad to say that there will always be people who would rather die than live...and half of those times they commit suicide for "silly" reasons. Like young people in high school & middle school and such even thinking about suicide because of things like boyfriends/girlfriends, grades, what another student said to them....things that they can live through and get better from.
I know I am pretty new on these boards but I would like to say that if anyone ever needs to talk, just drop me a note or something. Sometimes it's easier to talk to a stranger rather than friends & family.
I think with the world the way it is and the economy and everything to way it is, people are getting really depressed and more and more people consider suicide to escape from it all. It's really sad to say that there will always be people who would rather die than live...and half of those times they commit suicide for "silly" reasons. Like young people in high school & middle school and such even thinking about suicide because of things like boyfriends/girlfriends, grades, what another student said to them....things that they can live through and get better from. I know I am pretty new on these boards but I would like to say that if anyone ever needs to talk, just drop me a note or something. Sometimes it's easier to talk to a stranger rather than friends & family.
Some of the generalizations about this are simply ludicrous. Tell the teenage girl I knew who attempted suicide and continued to self-mutilate that she was a detriment to this stellar gene pool made up of us tough guys. Maybe a few minutes of telling her how stupid and weak she was would erase the repeated rapes by her father that started when she was eight. Every day that this girl got up and tried to see beyond the horror she lived with took more force of will than a lot of "tough guys" muster in a lifetime. Not even close.
TearsOfRage
Member
Quartus, some mentally ill people cannot simply choose not to be ill.
Do you really believe that any other organ of the body can be deformed or otherwise malfunctioning, but not the brain?
Would you tell a very retarded person that they would be smart enough to survive on their own if they didn't choose to be stupid?
Do you really believe that any other organ of the body can be deformed or otherwise malfunctioning, but not the brain?
Would you tell a very retarded person that they would be smart enough to survive on their own if they didn't choose to be stupid?
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
quartus, you are labeling all who commit suicide as being fully responsible for their actions. being in full command of all their faculties and making the conscious decision to end their life.
that simply is incorrect. many people suffer from depression that is not caused by their own selfishness, but rather from chemical imbalances or even allergic reactions. they can't control their emotions. in most cases it is treatable with medications.
how many people that have chimed in on this thread are taking, or know someone who takes, antidepressants?
and like i said, for people to complain "what about me? why did so-and-so kill themselves and make my life miserable?" thats just as selfish an attitude as the person who made the conscious decision to end their life.
you should do some research on depression and the causes of it, quartus. you should also look deep within yourself and determine how much faith you have in what happens at death. i've found that everyone scared of dying or other people around them dying have little faith in their beliefs of what happens to the soul when the body dies, or if their even is a soul.
when you resolve in your heart what you have faith in about death, then it is no longer a scary prospect.
that simply is incorrect. many people suffer from depression that is not caused by their own selfishness, but rather from chemical imbalances or even allergic reactions. they can't control their emotions. in most cases it is treatable with medications.
how many people that have chimed in on this thread are taking, or know someone who takes, antidepressants?
and like i said, for people to complain "what about me? why did so-and-so kill themselves and make my life miserable?" thats just as selfish an attitude as the person who made the conscious decision to end their life.
you should do some research on depression and the causes of it, quartus. you should also look deep within yourself and determine how much faith you have in what happens at death. i've found that everyone scared of dying or other people around them dying have little faith in their beliefs of what happens to the soul when the body dies, or if their even is a soul.
when you resolve in your heart what you have faith in about death, then it is no longer a scary prospect.
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
saying suicide victims had a 'choice' is effectively saying they are operating on all cylinders.
edit - perhaps you'd like me to fetch you a thesaurus while i'm at the library so you can rephrase that last sentence of yours i put in bold?
TOR was comparing a paraplegic to a suicide. The person who commits suicide has a choice. They are NOT helpless prisoners of their circumstances, and the comparison between the two is ridiculous. More than that, it is an insult to paraplegics.Even if a person's mind is not operating correctly, they still make a choice. Just like they choose to get up in the morning, eat, go places, whatever. Whether they are fully responsible is another matter. But they still make a choice.
And it is a selfish choice.
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
then why do some who commit murder plead 'insanity'? if they really are making 'conscious choices' there would be no such thing as pleading 'insanity'. its not saying that the person isnt accountable for their actions, but its handled in a different light.
those who have medical conditions that alter their emotions are in a way, handicapped by them. their abilities are diminished.
its as if you feel that other people 'owe' it to their friends/family to stay alive. do you also blame it on the person if they die of natural causes? that creates emotional hardship as well, doesnt it? but the person is just as dead from natural causes than from unnatural.
those who have medical conditions that alter their emotions are in a way, handicapped by them. their abilities are diminished.
its as if you feel that other people 'owe' it to their friends/family to stay alive. do you also blame it on the person if they die of natural causes? that creates emotional hardship as well, doesnt it? but the person is just as dead from natural causes than from unnatural.
Because our stupid society has deciced that someone who has a mental problem should somehow be excused for murder. It's still murder.
Tell it to the parents of a friend of mine who blew his head all over their garage with a 12 gauge.
Tell it to my friend Art who found his twin brother 3 days after he put the rifle to his head.
Tell it to anyone who has found a loved one dead by their own hand.
Yes, but not usually as much. And more to the point, it's not a choice.
Suicide is always a choice.
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
see, now this is interesting, quartus. both you and i have had friends and/or family who ended their own life, and yet we have two entirely different opinions of it. we both have unique ideas about suicide and whether or not the suffering the victim is going through while alive is greater than the suffering the relatives/friends of the victim would undergo.
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
well when you say that suicide is a selfish choice, and that the person contemplating it is not considering the feelings of friends/family, you seem to insinuate that the "choice" is poorly made. that it is never the answer. well like i was saying to Yohan, that depends on what the question is.
the fact of the matter is, you, nor i, nor anyone else can say what is going on inside a persons head when they check themselves out. did they just not care about what happens emotionally to their loved ones? did they just want to end their own personal hell?
your sentiments are in fact saying that the individuals feelings and emotions are less important than their family and friends feelings and emotions. how do you know that? you've experienced the loss of friends, do you really think that had their suicide been prevented, they would have opened their eyes, embraced their 'savior', and changed their outlook on life?
not everyone wants to be saved. not everyone wants to remain on this plane of existance. not everyone abides by yours, nor mine, opinions/beliefs about life/death.
edit - if i misread your sentiments or mis interpreted what you have been saying, i apologize. i call it like i see it. and i should also admit that my eyesight is not perfect, either.
the fact of the matter is, you, nor i, nor anyone else can say what is going on inside a persons head when they check themselves out. did they just not care about what happens emotionally to their loved ones? did they just want to end their own personal hell?
your sentiments are in fact saying that the individuals feelings and emotions are less important than their family and friends feelings and emotions. how do you know that? you've experienced the loss of friends, do you really think that had their suicide been prevented, they would have opened their eyes, embraced their 'savior', and changed their outlook on life?
not everyone wants to be saved. not everyone wants to remain on this plane of existance. not everyone abides by yours, nor mine, opinions/beliefs about life/death.
edit - if i misread your sentiments or mis interpreted what you have been saying, i apologize. i call it like i see it. and i should also admit that my eyesight is not perfect, either.
Climb14er
Member
There's a range here in Denver
actually, it's in neighboring Aurora, where I shoot from time to time. They've had at least two, maybe three suicides in the past five to six years. Very sad.
I'm sorry for you and your friend to have been there when it occurred.
actually, it's in neighboring Aurora, where I shoot from time to time. They've had at least two, maybe three suicides in the past five to six years. Very sad.
I'm sorry for you and your friend to have been there when it occurred.
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