Super Redhawk or Super Blackhawk: 44, or 454/45

[Huntolive]

SRH 454/45LC-vs-SBH 44Mag.

Thanks 98redline, etc. for your detailed info.
Looks like SBH 44 is better for deer, and first pistol.
Are they more trouble free?
With loads big enough to easily kill 300 lb black bear and 200 lb. whitetails in their tracks, has anyone had problems with cases sticking in the chamber in the Blackhawk?
What hunting rounds would you recommend for SBH for deer/black bear? I want soemthing they won't get up from, but not too crazy over the top.
I will eventually try reloading, but currently do not.

The SRH 454 seems more like a gun to have for the sheer joy of blasting and bigger game hunts.
Would the 454 be any advantage with deer or 300 lb black bear?
Are there folks out there with lots of 454 shot out of SRH who have never had cases stick? How?
Can I adequitely hunt deer and ward off black bear with 45LC in the 454 SRH without using 454Casul, and just save that for the sheer thrill, and bigger game?

Also: Is there a version of DA 44Mag, or 45LC suitable for concealed carry? If so what? OR what would YOU recommend for CC? 38? 357? I want em' to go down fast and stay down! How bout that rugger( LCR or LRC) or Taurus ultralight? Is ultralight the way to go for cc? I am willing to cc something a bit bigger, but not the 7.5" SRH ! ;-)

 

[Kernel]

What hunting rounds would you recommend for SBH for deer/black bear?

For a non-handloader a 240 gr JHP from any of the major mfgrs would be ideal. I'm partial to a 240 gr Hornady XTP.

Here's what the "Bisley" version of the SBH Hunter looks like. It's got a different grip frame shape that some like, a drop hammer, and a trigger with a more curve to it. Otherwise, it's the same as a plain Hunter. Also, Hunters only come in stainless and 7 1/2 is the only barrel length. You can find them in .44 Mag, .45 Colt, and .41 Mag, but no .454.

 

[98Redline]

I can't say one way or the other regarding "trouble free" operation as none of my Rugers have every given me even the slightest hint of a problem. The Blackhawk platform has been a reliable performer since the 50's and many of those guns are still going strong. I have a 1967 Super Blackhawk that is still as tight and shoots as well as my newest guns.

Regarding your question on sticking cases, I have loaded up some full snort .44 Mag loads (320gr bullet @ 1350 fps) and have not had any sticky extraction issues. My loads are not completely top end loads however they are the ones that shoot most accurately out of my gun. (as an aside I have never found a maximum load in anything that is the most accurate, a few percent down from max seems to be the sweet spot). I assure you, if this is your first big bore handgun, the .44Mag is more than enough recoil for you to "enjoy"

With my above mentioned bullet combo I would have no issue taking any game animal in North America. They work excellent on hogs and would be equally as deadly for bear or elk. For thin skinned animals like deer you don't "need" a 320gr solid bullet and you will most likely get complete penetration (even going end to end, the long way) but I prefer to only have to deal with one load type so I stick with this one. I have also found that all of my .44s shoot better with bullets between 300 and 320gr. 240s shoot well but they just don't have the same accuracy and consistency as the 300s.

For commercial loads, Double Tap ammunition carries a 320gr WFNGC that is very similar to my handloaded ammo. I have shot several boxes of this ammo and it is a serious performer with excellent accuracy in my SBHH. Before I had my loading bench set up, this is what I shot.

No handgun will give you a DRT (dead right there) on every animal. I have had deer go 75 yards before dropping over and some that just did the bang-flop with nearly identical wounds. Each animal is a rule unto itself. The secret to short recoveries is good shot placement and there is no replacement for that. Regardless of the caliber a gut shot deer can go quite a distance before expiring. Picking your shots and taking your time will do more for short recoveries than larger calibers.


Your question regarding a CCW in 44mag or 45colt is interesting.
Any gun in the above two rounds that is light enough for you to consider wearing for any length of time in a CCW capacity will be very........very....energetic in terms of recoil. Smith and Wesson makes a scandium frame 44 mag (329 PD). I have not shot one, however I have heard that the recoil from those is simply brutal. The gun is so light that is crosses the line from unpleasant to painful with anything but the most sedate loads. That abusive recoil leads to much longer follow up shots should you need one.
For CCW, I prefer a smaller frame 38 special or 357 revolver, and even have a .380 that I use for hot weather and light clothing. They conceal well and are light enough to walk around all day with without feeling like you have a monkey wrench hanging off of your belt. I am of the mindset that I would prefer to have a smaller/lighter gun with me at all times than a much larger one that stays home a bunch due to not concealing well.

 

[Huntolive]

SBH Bisley, 454 SRH, CCW

I owe you all a debt of gratitude for sharing your experience,
especailly, Kernel, 98Redline, 56Hawk and others!

So Kernel, and anyone else out there, do you recommend the SBH Bisley style over the normal hunter? Is that the same gun in picture, w/ and w/o scope?

98 Redline, what is WFNGC ammo? How much should I expect to spend for 20 of the Double Tap you descirbed-vs- the 240grn JHP Hornadays? Where?
I understand shot placement is always #1, and will train accordingly, as I always have w/ rifle, bow, blk pwdr.

How much xtra work is it to extract casings from SA than DA?
Do 454 fans think that is more trouble than dealing with occassional stuck cases from expansion in Casul SRH? I havn't completely abandoned 454 ;-)

RE: CCW, specific recommendations under $600? Probably 38 or 357?

 

[Huntolive]

45 sbh?

What about the SBH hunter in 45LC? Does it come in Hunter w/ 7.5"brl?
Why is that not in conversation?
I got a like new Judge for $200 from a friend who really needed $, that shoots 45LC and 410. Is that a good reason to condsider 45 over 44 for compatability of ammo?
Or is 44mag inherantly better?

 

[Kernel]

...do you recommend the SBH Bisley style over the normal hunter

I depends entirely on how they feel in YOUR hands. I have both styles of grip frame and prefer the normal frame for full power loads (contrary to most, who prefer the Bisley grip frame for magnum power levels). I shoot my Bisley mostly with low power plinking loads (it's not a Hunter, unscoped 5 1/2" barrel), so what do I know?

What about the SBH hunter in 45LC? Does it come in Hunter w/ 7.5"brl?

Yes and Yes. Re-read my previous post.

Is that a good reason to condsider 45 over 44 for compatability of ammo?

It could be. Though, if I had a Judge I'd mostly shoot .410 shot shells in it. Isn’t that the whole point? And if I did ever shoot .45 Colt it would very likely not be the same ammo I’d be shooting in my deer pistol.

You got a good deal on the Judge, but it’s a bauble IMHO. Have some fun with it, then find the right buyer, double you money, take the profits and put it into a good hunting handgun that could put meat on the table for your lifetime and your grandkid’s.

is 44mag inherantly better?

Compared to the .45 Colt, no, not really, IF you handload. In practice, with the right handloads, they're so close there's no difference. If you don't handload (or want to buy super expensive custom .45 Colt ammo), buy the .44 Mag, it's OTC ammo is WAY more powerful.

 

[98Redline]

Everybody's hand is different and while there are some that prefer the feel of the traditional hogleg grip profile over the bisley, I think the vast majority prefer the bisley when you start getting up into the heavy recoiling loads.
If you take a look on Rugers web site you will see the variations that the Super Blackhawk hunter comes in.
Ruger.com

WFNGC = Wide Flat Nose + Gas Check (the little copper cup on the back of the bullet)


These are pretty much hunting only loads. The wide meplat (flat front on the bullet) generates a massive shock wave inside the animal on impact, but does not expand like a hollow point, resulting in very deep penetration.

The Double Tap 320s are $23.32/ box of 20.
The Hornady 300gr XTPs are about $16.00/ box of 20.

Now the double taps exceed the performance of the Hornady's by a large margin. They are 20 gr heavier and are running nearly 200fps faster. They are not a round you want to go to the range and burn up a few boxes of (both in cost and recoil), however as a hunting load they excel. Additonally becase of the heavy weight of the bullet, it does not shed energy as fast as a lighter one resulting in pretty much a MPBR (maximum point blank range) of about 120 yards. In essence the gun shoots flat enough that you hold your sights dead on for any shot between 0 and 120 yards.

Extracting the spent brass from a single action is a one at a time proposition. Open the loading gate, advance the cylinder to align the case with the loading gate and depress the ejector rod. Repeat for all other cylinders. Loading is the same process, one at a time through the loading gate. IMHO the reload speed on a hunting gun is immaterial. The maximum number of times I have shot in any hunting situation is 3, and that was at a group of hogs. I hit the first pig I was aiming at then missed 2x on a running shot at another. Pretty much once you touch off that first round, everything in the surrounding area is getting the heck out of Dodge so you would be lucky for a 2nd or 3rd shot.

Back to the cartridge selection issue......

Ultimately it is your choice 44Mag, 454 or 45 Colt.

Unless you reload then I would discard the 45 colt. It is a great cartridge and comes as close to matching the performance of the 44 Mag as any caliber could, but to get this type of performance out of it, you have to handload it.

The 454 is an excellent cartridge as well however it think it is way more than you really need. It certainly will put game down but I find that the muzzle blast and recoil from this cartridge objectionable compared to any of the other rounds mentioned. A 60,000 psi chamber pressure is going to be very loud with a sharp recoil pulse. It is significantly more snappy in the recoil department. It might be something you look at after shooting a 44 for a few years, however it is definitely not a good choice for a first big bore gun. It is akin to buying a 70-80# bow for a beginning archer. Accurate..yes, powerful...yes, user friendly....not so much.

I still lean toward the 44 Mag for it availability, relative economy and performance.

 

[BCRider]

56Hawk, I had to laugh along with the folks in the background at the fireballs and what I know the blasts sounded like. You're a better man than I to be shooting that thing in a stage of that sort....

While I totally agree with your thinking on follow up shots for a defense situation I'd suggest that using a big bore DA handgun loaded with full power loads in the confines of a house would be tough on the ears and really isn't needed. So that leaves the question at hunting use. And for hunting the comments on the animal bolting at the first hit and making a follow up shot problematic become more valid.

Not to mention that with a little practice the hammer of a single action revolver can be cocked easily as the gun is coming back down from the recoil and while the scope or iron sight picture is being re-aquired. So really there's little, if any, time penalty to a SA gun.

 

[Huntolive]

Thanks SRH and SBH fans

Thanks esp 98Redline and Kernel for your detailed info, and sound advice.
I will go with the 44Mag. for a pure hunting revolver.
And in a gun that big, don't see why I need to spend more on DA SRH, as I sure as hell won't be CC it! So SBH it is.

Might still pick up the used 454 SRH for bigger game, and the price, now $550 seems fair. The 2 would pair up nicely. 44mag SBH for deer + 454 SRH for...
Moose? ;-) Or dangerous game. Seems the 44Mag range of ammo covers it all.

Any fans of the SRH 454 think the 45LC plus the 454 make that a better range of effctive ammo than 44Mag?
And at the end of the day does the DA ease of loading/unloading and slightly faster repeat shots make it a clear favorite?

Also, for trail gun, and CC how do yall like the Ruger sp101 in 3 or 4" ?
With 4" couldn't I even pull that out to take a deer w/i 50 yards when rifel hunting, just to make things more interesting?
With training, could I even do that with 3" and use same gun for CC? Will same stop black bears in a pinch?

 

[Steve in PA]

I have not shot my SBH at 100 yards, but my SRH is sighted dead on at 100 yards. It will consistantly keep 5 shots within a 3" group when shooting from a rest.

I've taken several deer with a handloaded 240gr XTP and the deer never went very far. My black bear load is a 300gr XTP. I've never taken a bear yet, but I came close last year. Had one walk by at about 50 yards, but when I saw she had some cubs following her, I passed.

 

[SabbathWolf]

After reading this thread, I went out just before dusk last night and fired my 6.50" barrel 357 Blackhawk from the bench @ 25 meters to see what it did.
It didn't last long because I'm evidently a dumb *ss....lol
I succeeded in burning up and blowing a hole in my bean bag from all the fire coming out from around the cylinder....and the end result was a test failure.


Live and learn......

 

[JEB]

I will go with the 44Mag. for a pure hunting revolver.
And in a gun that big, don't see why I need to spend more on DA SRH, as I sure as hell won't be CC it! So SBH it is.

hunttolive, i think you made an exellent choice. just last fall i was in the same position as you and was looking at a pure hunting revolver. my first decision was about caliber. i really wanted a .500 magnum but knew i really couldnt afford the gun itself, let alone the ammo even with reloads. eventually i found myself looking at .454 vs .44 magnum. there is a pretty good price jump between the two. for example, 100 pieces of starline brass for the .454 is $35 whereas for the .44, it is only $20. i also came to realize that if i did get the .454, i would have no need for full power loads and would most likely never load above the midrange anyway. eventually i decided on the .44 mag.

my next decision was as to the type of revolver. it was between the ruger redhawk, super redhawk, and the super blackhawk. since this was going to be for hunting only i knew that i was going to be shooting in single action to get all the accuracy i could. also i knew that i was going to be walking several miles in a day with this big ol' six shooter on my hip so weight became a concern. the 7 1/2" redhawk weighs in at 54oz, the super redhawk is 53oz, and the super blackhawk is only 48oz. it's not a lot lighter, but every little bit helps. speed of follow-up shots and speed of reloading are, in my opinion, irrelevant in a hunting situation.

in the end, i got myself a 7 1/2" stainless super blackhawk and took a deer with it this last winter. and let me tell you, .44 mag is PLENTY for whitetail. using a 240gr hornady xtp loaded to 1400fps, the bullet traversed about 2 1/2 feet of deer and blowing a hole out the other side with a big puff of hair. the shot wasnt perfect but she still didnt go too far. all in all, i could not be happier with my choice.

 

[98Redline]

One more thing to consider is a good holster for your new gun. While I really like the looks of the cowboy rigs, when dealing with a revolver with a 7+ inch barrel they tend to be a bit cumbersome. Also hip holsters tend to snag and get hung up when working through the thick stuff. I much prefer a shoulder or chest holster to something that I wear on my belt. It distributes the weight to my shoulders and does not constantly try to pull my pants down. It also keeps the revolver inside the envelope of my body thus if I get my arms out of the way of something I know I am not going to snag my gun on it.

There are a number of good ones out there such as
Simply Rugged Chesty Puller
7X Leather Chest Holster
Ringler Custom Leather Wyoming Combo Holster

My SBH Bisley Hunter has a red dot sight on it so I needed something that would accommodate a scoped revolver. I ultimately settled on the Ringler Wyoming Combo Holster, and really could not be happier with it. It fits my gun like a glove and carries very well.

 

[CraigC]

The Ruger .454 experiences sticky extraction because of the alloy they used, not because it's "a lot weaker". Carpenter Custom 465 was utilized because it gave them the tensile strength and elasticity they needed to maintain 6-shot capacity. I reckon because this was easier to manufacture than a 5-shot. It's the elasticity that comes into play and causes sticky extraction with top loads. This is why most factory .454 loads are in the 50-55,000psi range, rather than tickling the 65,000psi max pressure.

That said, you don't need a .454 to kill deer. Or even hogs, black bear, elk, moose, etc.. The .44Mag will cover everything on the North American continent quite handily and be gentler to your wallet if you are not a handloader.

While the .45Colt has many proponents who believe it has magical qualities, in reality, there is very little difference between it and the .44Mag. No critter will ever notice.

IMHO, the Ruger Bisley is the most comfortable of all the big bores and most shooters prefer it for handling heavy recoil. However, recoil is a highly subjective thing and everybody feels and experiences it differently. The Bisley Hunter .44 would be a very safe first choice. Although I find the factory grips to be horrible and swap them immediately. CLC Custom Grips is my Ruger gripmaker and I have well over a dozen pairs from Cary. These are macassar ebony on Dad's Bisley Hunter.

http://www.clccustomgrips.com

I believe these are 25yd groups, shot with the Beartooth 355gr at 1250fps.


It handles this heavyweight very well.

 

[Huntolive]

Great Advice: now sp 101 357?

The site is Great! Thanks for advice on holsters, claiber, style of grip, etc.

I have read reviews of SRH and SBH that show slightly better accuracy from SRH, which surprised me. This was attributed potentially to the greater weight/stability of the gun. Is this worth considering? Worth the xtra weight?
It would be more fun shooting the DA, but for hunting, accuracy, not speed is everything. Is the SBH still the most accurate? Could that have been a fluke?

Also, I am in market for a CC and trail gun that is durable, and will stop both a man, black bear, and could be used on occassion to take a deer under 50 yards w/ open sights. I plan to scope my 7.5" SBH or SRH. Not a primary hunting gun, but one I could opt for when rifle hunting if I got a clear shot. Am eyeing the sp 101 357 w/ 3" or 4" brl.

Advice?

 

[JEB]

the sp101 is a dandy of a compact revolver. i have the 3" and LOVE it! mine is much more accurate than i would have guessed it would be when i first got it. if you're looking for a carry gun and/or a trail gun, the sp101 in any barrel length would be a great choice. if you are wanting to use it for hunting, i must urge you to check your hunting regs first. in Iowa, we have a .357magnum minimum, must use expanding type ammo, and have at lest a 4" barrel. personally, if i were going to use an sp101 for any type of hunting, i would want the 4" model anyway for the increase in velocity and above all, the adjustable sights.

 

[CraigC]

This was attributed potentially to the greater weight/stability of the gun. Is this worth considering?

No, I don't believe there is anything to it.

We must also understand that while the Super Redhawk looks really beefy, is not heavier than a Bisley Hunter. The 7½" Bisley Hunter pictured above weighs in a 54oz on my postage scale. My 7½" .480 Super Redhawk weighs 52oz on the same scale. The 7½" .44Mag version is listed at 53oz. Even a standard 7½" Bisley .44Mag weighs 51oz. The SRH is often derided for being too heavy and beefy but in reality, it weighs about what it should and is very comparable to a single action of the same chambering and barrel length.

By contrast a 6" 29 weighs 47oz. Significant but not what I'd call a huge difference in a hunting revolver and that's with a 1½" shorter barrel.

 

[Huntolive]

Thanks Again!
I am set on the SBH Hunter 44Mag for deer.
Still may get SRH 454 Hunter as well (I can get it for $550 used), but want to know how many folks out there with one are or are not having problems extracting spent cases???

On the CC front: I am still zeroing in on a gun that can CC, and double to both defend against black bear, and occassionally take a deer with iron sights. I am leaning towards the sp101 357 4"brl.
Should I be concerned about the adjustable sights and external hammer getting caught on clothing when drawing in self defense scenario?

I can only get 1 more gun now. Do I really need instead to wait and get an exclusive CC gun (in which case I would get a Ruger LCR 357, but would like your suggestions) and perhaps a 4"brl 44Mag SRH? Or pair the LCR with a sp101 357? Semms lijke alot of guns and $ that way...

Or is issue w/ sights and external hammer getting caught pure nonsense? If so, the sp101 357 4"brl seems to do all in one package.

 

[Alaska444]

I was going to get the SRH in .454 Casull, but after test firing it at the gun store, I decided that the numbness in my hand for five minutes after shooting it was trying to tell me something.

Instead, I was able to pick up the SRH 7.5 inch in .44 magnum. Interestingly, my woods carry is Buffalo Bore +P+ 340 gr that gives me .454 performance out of the .44 magnum. For Idaho with grizzly, it works well as simple carry when out and around.

For the SP101, I also have that as my EDC, but I don't consider it a woods gun, at least Idaho woods perhaps. I do load it with Buffalo Bore 180 gr when out of city limits, but it is definitely a back up gun in the woods.

I believe you are better off getting a gun that you will use for specific purposes, but of course, when pushed to a corner, the SP101 with appropriate loads can kill a black bear, but I wouldn't want it to my only resource.

 

[98Redline]

I don't consider my "woods gun" and my CCW to be the same gun. Each has different requirements both in caliber and configuration and trying to split the difference between the two will get you a gun that is excellent at neither.

If given the choice between a woods gun and a CCW, I will pick a dedicated CCW every day and twice on Sunday. Sadly I spend much more time around threats of the two legged variety than of the four legged so something that will deal with an attacker efficiently, conceals and carrys well is my first choice. A .357 SP-101 in either the 2 1/4" or 3 1/2" variety works exceptionally well albeit a little on the heavy side. An LCR is also a good choice if you are a bit conscious of the weight. Of the two, the SP is the one that would probably be your best play doubling as a woods gun.

 

[Bushpilot]

Not really much difference from a hunting perspective between single or double action in most cases in my opinion. I currently prefere the Super Redhawk I now have to the Super Blackhawk I used to have or my 44 Virginia Dragoon. Mostly my preference is because of the ease of loading and unloading which I admit isn't much of a factor when hunting at all. I also like the scope mounting system on the RSR. The RSB, at least the one I had, might have a slightly better trigger then the RSR. I can't really comment on a handgun caliber for anything larger than deer other than to say that for deer the 44 is all I need or want. As others have mentioned, the 44 is of course going to be easier and cheaper to find ammo for if you don't handload.

 

[Jaxondog]

There's really not much if anything on this continent a 44 mag want stop if you are a decent shot. Yeah, i know all about the bigger bore's. I have them. But the 44 mag is really all the gun you need so i would advise going with a 44 mag. A little cheaper in the long run also. Just my 2 cent's worth.

 

[skidder]

There's really not much if anything on this continent a 44 mag want stop if you are a decent shot. Yeah, i know all about the bigger bore's. I have them. But the 44 mag is really all the gun you need so i would advise going with a 44 mag. A little cheaper in the long run also. Just my 2 cent's worth.

I agree with Jaxondog

I have shot the SBH and SRH, but have never owned one. I have killed whitetail with my Redhawk. The 44 is plenty powerful enough and the ammo is cheaper. My advice would be to go with a SRH or RH in 44.

Here is my hiking buddy and hunting companion.

 

[Huntolive]

All that makes sense about not trying to split the difference between woods gun and CC, but the one that could do it all would be the 4" brl sp101 357.
The only question is, what would be the holster/cc set up to CC that without concern that the adjustable sights and external hammer could get caught up in clothing while drawing it?

Otherwise, I will perhaps wait, not get any sp101, and later get an LCR 357 for CC, and what, maybe a 4"SRH 44Mag for woods gun that could also be used to take occassional deer under 50 yrds w/ open sights?

As far as kick on the 454 SRH w/ 7.5" brl, I did not find it too bad; impressive, but not alarming.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Blackhawks can be had in 454 Casull, but only as a modified gun. You buy a Blackhawk and send it to a gunsmith who converts it with a new cylinder and barrel into a 5-shot 454, 475 or 500 Wyoming or Lindebaugh.

Expensive.

Sticking problems are most likely because of gunpowder and lube reside left from 45 Colt cartridges. When you stick a 454 Cartridge in, it may chamber hard or it may not, but after the heat of firing, may get stuck in the gummy residue.

Same sort of thing happens with .357 chambers after firing 38 Specials and 44 Mag chambers after firing 44 Specials.

As far as I can tell, the chamber residue has not been declared innocent of causing the hard extraction problem.

The other possible cause of hard extraction is overpressure. It occurs because both the brass and the steel expand due to the pressure of firing. Both metals are elastic and spring back some. The steel should spring back to its original dimensions (otherwise gun lifetimes would be very short). Brass does not spring back to its original dimensions. However, the brass started out smaller than the steel and SHOULD spring back enough to extract easily. Here we get into plastic (inelastic) deformation and elastic deformation.

Without going into metallurgy deeper than my qualifications, let me just suggest that brass sticking in a clean chamber is a sign of overpressure and (here, people may argue with me, so feel free) is more a fault of the brass than the steel.

Lost Sheep