Support hand hold with mag fed rifle.

[dadman]

What support hand position works best for you, and why?
Scenario(s) is that your using a magazine fed semi-auto rifle, requiring multiple shots such as 3 gun, gunfight, etc.
If shooting position permits, I prefer grasping the front of the mag and magwell area with my support hand, with the support arm and strong arm elbows down. Gives me a more solid and tighter upper body feel.
Have heard from others that place support hand far out on the handguard, and some that use handguard slightly forward of the magwell.

 

[Navy joe]

Right now for more rapid fire I find myself gripping my AR right at the handguard ring and wrapping my arm so that the forearm presses on the side of the mag. Works great for me. Also have done the grip the magwell deal.

M-1A I prefer just ahead of the mag.

 

[HSMITH]

I would guess that you have never seen an out-of-battery firing in a mag fed rifle if you even consider having anything touching or under the magazine. Most people have not and do not know that it can even happen. I have seen it on an M14 and an FAL, and know a guy that had it happen on an AR15. The case will blow most times and the weakest part of the action is the magazine. The magazine will either be ripped out and blow downward while expanding fast enough to break or cut off fingers, or the magazine will blow outwards breaking hands and the floorplate will let go allowing everything to exit the bottom. No matter what way it goes if you are touching the magazine or have some part of your body under it you will very likely get hurt. Handguards are for hands, magazines are for cartridges. I have personally seen this happen twice, it is real. Once was a broken firing pin that was sticking out. That was the M14. I am not sure what happened with the FAL as I was not able to look at it and have not seen the guy again. I suspect it was either loose headspace or a broken firing pin though. The guy with the AR that let loose had a fining pin bind up, either from crud or excessive oil. The rifle worked fine after a good cleaning. You may not get hurt if it happens to you but I see no reason to chance it.

Take this for what it is worth to you, I hope it helps.

 

[dadman]

HSMITH,
Ouch! I've seen pictures posted in the past that showed a M1A that had the receiver and aft part of barrel ripped open, and M16's and an AR with the upper recv blown open at the forward end. M1A pics showed the individuals forearm and face.
I'd hate to think of the results from an out-of-battery with a bullpup rifle!
What kind of shooting postion were the effected rifle shooters using? Where was their support hand? What kind of injuries were sustained?
I've seen where CMP match shooters shoot offhand, with the support hand at the bottom of the magazine. That would be taking the full brunt of an out-of-battery.
O-of-B concerns aside, gripping the foreward edge of mag works best for me.

 

[Soap]

dadman,

Pat Rogers advocates that grip. He even wrote an article in S.W.A.T. about it. Just make sure you keep your elbows down for close-in shooting.

 

[4v50 Gary]

HSmith - You raised some good points about ka-blooms. I seem to recall pictures of the magazine blown out too. On that M-14 type rifle that had a broken firing pin, where was the pin broken at? The tail or elsewhere? If it was the tail though, what make? Thanks.

Regarding bull-pups, that's an inherent danger should it happen. I don't remember if it was Art who said it, but who wants 20k plus PSI next to their face when it goes off? No jaw left and death would be merciful.

 

[HSMITH]

As far as I know the guy with the AR was holding on to the mag like the original poster suggested he liked, his hand was bruised badly. Badly like could not be used for much of anything for a while. No permanent damage that we know of, but he stays well clear of th mag now!!!!!!!

The M14 was a GI issue and I believe it was a springfield (not positive though), but God only knows what parts were in it by that time. It was my weapon (armorer) and the pin was broken near the tail when I autopsied the weapon. The weapon was there when I got there and had been re-arsenalled at least once, it was in really nice shape. It had fired as it closed loading the next one up in semi-auto mode. The guy had some pretty good burns on his hand, some schrapnel in him and some serious bruising. There was a lot of blood, but a cup can look like a gallon if you have seen stuff like that before. He was back on full duty in less than three weeks and will keep the schrapnel for life, for better or worse.

The FAL guy was bleeding pretty good from the hand and/or the forarm. I have not seen him since, but there is a 99.995% chance he did not die from it . I would guess that he built it himself and is embarrassed enough to not show his face for quite some time.

Most KB from OOB firing are from a mechanical/maintenance failure and will happen as the next round is being chambered. Headspace is one case where you will pull the trigger on your own injuries.

The offhand supported by the mag bottom is the one that scares me the most. If it went KB and you were doing that you could even lose your hand. Not worth the risk when proper shooting positions are easily used and just as accurate IMO.

 

[Nightcrawler]

"Proper" shooting postion? I would argue that a "proper" shooting position is whatever is comfortable for you and you can hit the target with.

I find my FAL to be a bit on the long side. Long story short, my support arm gets tired from the 11lb beast when I hold it by the handguard. Holding my support hand under the magazine allows more stability when shooting with tired arms and such, as my support forearm is much closer to the vertical and supports that weight better.

This does depend on where on the handguard I grasp the weapon. If I wrap my right (support) hand around the magazine well, I can get a very stable position, but I have to make doubly sure that my thumb isn't covering the eject port. (If you do this with an AK, make sure your thumb is clear of the charging handle...I got smacked once and it was NOT pleasant.)

The Russians, I believe, actually teach using the magazine as a monopod/foregrip. A number of shooting schools advocate using the magazine of an AR carbine as a kind of foregrip.

I've heard of the exploding weapons as you describe. Can't say I ever worried about it, but anything's possible, I suppose.

However, a more common occurance (at least with AR-15s) is that pulling, pushing, or applying too much pressure to the magazine can cause the weapon to jam. The magazines are pretty flimsy and often (on GI M16s, at least) have a little wobble when they're snapped in. Pulling on the mag can jam the weapon; doing it too terribly hard can permanently damage it.

Now, on weapons with rock in/lock in magazines, like FALs and AKs, it's not so much of a problem. Also true with weapons with steel magazines (again, you've got your FALs and AKs in this class, usually).

If anybody else suffers from Heavy Gun Syndrome, fear not. In my experience, when the adrenaline gets pumping, you tend to forget all about how heavy your weapon is. During various combat drills I've often snapped my 20lbs (loaded with 200rds) M249 SAW to the shoulder and fired off a burst; you forget how heavy it is when you're all excited and such.

 

[HSMITH]

I have a FAL or three, I do not have any trouble getting them into proper (for me, as taught by the USMC, or USAMU) positions, but anytime I get the sling tight enought to help they go HAYWIRE on the accuracy front. I shoot them un-slung and all is OK, but I sure would like to have one of Mr. Vandenbergs free float kits!!!!

You bring up a very good point, putting pressure on the magazine in any direction can compromise the reliability of the weapon. Pressure on the mag is often used for troubleshooting feeding problems.

I never said you can't hold it by the mag if you want to, just that there are some possible repercussions worthy of thought (to me anyway).

 

[Jeff White]

I've witnessed 3 out of battery detonations with AR15s. All could be attributed to poorly made handloads that had high primers. No not my ammo, I don't reload. But I will never use handloads in any of of my weapons.


In all three instances it blew the floorplate out of the magazine and dumped the remaining rounds on the ground. Also bent the extractors. I will try to post some pics of the magazines and extractors if anyone is interested.

I used to feel the same way about pressure on the magazines causing malfunctions. Pat Rogers and a friend who's a platoon sergeant in the 1st Ranger Battalion convinced me to try it. I now believe in the practice. The benefits you get from using the mag as a monopod far outweighs the chance of inducing a malfunction. I recommend this for the M16/M4/AR15 type weapon with USGI magazines. Got no experience doing this with other magazine fed rifles. Try it some time. I spent a lot of years
correcting soldiers on the range. No more. I'm a believer


Jeff

 

[Correia]

I usually use my AK and FAL by holding onto the magazine like a foregrip when I'm shooting stuff like 3 gun, (lots and fast). When I'm shooting at distance I will use a more traditional hold. Preferably with a sling for support. (can't on my FAL though). I find the mag hold helps on controllability during rapid fire.

I don't hold the mag with my AR because it malfunctions if you do that.