Suppressed hog hunting

[Morrey]

Just looking for a reality check here:

Have always been interested in suppressors, in fact have one for my CZ .22LR and simply love it for squirrel hunting. With premium subsonic ammo and the silencer affixed, it is quite accurate to 35-50 yards and gets the job done quietly.

With this success in mind, I considered hog hunting with a .308 suppressed and subsonic ammo. HOWEVER, a buddy set up a 300 BLk suppressed and he says don't waste your time. Said the ammo at subsonic speeds is highly inaccurate, drops like a rock and has little or no expansion or killing power. So, my question is...is there any valid thinking to pursue a silencer, a new gun w/ threaded barrel, new scope, new rings, hand loads...etc? In other words, just take out my non-silenced gun and go shoot a hog and quit worrying over busting a whole sounder of hogs in one sitting?

Just a reality check......

 

[jmorris]

A subsonic 308 is not going to have an advantage over a subsonic 300blk but both can be accurate.

The only way you can gain energy, once you set a speed limit is with mass, why I use 500 grain bullets in my 458 socom. Simply a lot more energy than you can get out of a .308 bullet at the same speed.

All will have a rather dismal trajectory due to speed as well that limits usable range and BC of the bullet won't have a lot of difference either inside that range.

FWIW I have seen animals do strange things with supersonic suppressed shots as well. A hit on distant animals with a suppressed shot has even driven the rest of them back towards me rather than away. I suppose it could be related to where they suspect the threat came from.

Not unlike this video, there really isn't a reference for them to know where the shot came from.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs3uiXHK9TY

Or this one at point of impact.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1L4EJAcnhY

 

[hso]

I know a professional hunter working under contract for the Park Service killing hogs in the GSMNP. He uses a suppressed .300 Blackout AR shooting heavy subsonic rounds. Kills hogs just fine. He's not trying to make long shots with subsonics.

 

[dubbleA]

I have killed plenty with suppressed subs from AR's and bolt guns.They work just fine and accuracy is superb.

Contrary to most people belief subs are not completely silent. The bullet smacking flesh makes a pop or a thud. Other animals will react to that sound and the sudden movement of the animal hit. The idea of a hog, deer or whatever just standing there is after the one next to him drops to the ground and flops around is just silly, it doesn't happen in real life.


Try this .....go into a quiet place where everyone is relaxed and minding their own business and clap your hands and see what the reaction is.

 

[hq]

Said the ammo at subsonic speeds is highly inaccurate, drops like a rock and has little or no expansion or killing power.

It all boils down to keeping shooting distance reasonable and using the most suitable bullets. Accuracy of subsonic loads can be fantastic even though at 50 yards or so you don't really need a tack driver. 1000fps or so won't suffice for the majority of hunting bullets to expand and you can mostly forget about big game hunting. Hogs are borderline for regular 150-180 grain .308 bullets at subsonic speeds. Just an idea: have you considered .45ACP? It's already subsonic as regular factory loads, lead bullets are a good choice at moderate velocities and at standard 230 grains they're quite a bit heavier than what's practical in .308. Sectional density is no match to rifle caliber bullets, but they're large diameter and heavy enough to do some serious damage anyway.

I've thought about putting together a suppressed shotgun, either pump action or single barrel, and handloading 850-1000 grain custom cast slugs for subsonic loads. It'll still be slightly lacking in hydrodynamic shock to anchor deer sized game on the spot, but there's no question about wound channel and penetration being sufficient. Larger caliber/gauge will always be a bit louder than a .22, though.

 

[farmerboy78]

As far as accuracy with subsonic or supersonic goes, will mainly depends on the barrel quality that is on the rifle... I had a 300 blackout built with a kreiger barrel and it would do 3/4" @ 100 with subs... I ended up selling that .300bo because I could do everything with my .308 win that I could with the blackout using subs or super... I use cast bullets for my .308 subs... 215gr lead bullets with a gas check to keep the barrel clean...

 

[Morrey]

I'm getting great ideas here. Since the subsonic speed needs to stay under 1,050 fps (or less)...that is the main factor for silence as far as report goes. BUT, bullet weight is not a factor in the sonic crack in this scenario. Heavy bullets will give me more knock down power which is the variable I can actually control. Glad I made this post.

 

[farmerboy78]

Well yes and no! A suppressor will take away the rifle report whether or not you are using subs or supers... using subs will take away the sonic Crack of breaking the sound barrier... which leads to a nearly totally silent shot...

 

[justin22885]

at hunting distances, forget the 300 blackout, most .308 bullets are designed to expand or do their job at much higher velocities than what you get at subsonic speeds, so dont waste your time

however, 45ACP can be pushed up to about 1100fps in a carbine, delivers as much energy at close range as a 300 blackout, and its ammunition is designed to expand at even lower speeds than what you'll be hitting pigs with.. so get yourself a 45acp carbine like one of the mac-10 based carbines, suppress that and hit those pigs with some 230 grain JHPs.. buffalo bores are a nice choice

buffalo bore sells some .45 super loads that push a 255 grain bullet at just under 1075fps, youd get more energy out of a bit longer barrel too (just be sure not to go over 1126fps).. 255 at 1075 surpasses 300 blackout and .308 when suppressed at close distances

 

[farmerboy78]

at hunting distances, forget the 300 blackout, most .308 bullets are designed to expand or do their job at much higher velocities than what you get at subsonic speeds, so dont waste your time

however, 45ACP can be pushed up to about 1100fps in a carbine, delivers as much energy at close range as a 300 blackout, and its ammunition is designed to expand at even lower speeds than what you'll be hitting pigs with.. so get yourself a 45acp carbine like one of the mac-10 based carbines, suppress that and hit those pigs with some 230 grain JHPs.. buffalo bores are a nice choice

buffalo bore sells some .45 super loads that push a 255 grain bullet at just under 1075fps, youd get more energy out of a bit longer barrel too (just be sure not to go over 1126fps).. 255 at 1075 surpasses 300 blackout and .308 when suppressed at close distances

But if you look around, there is 300bo ammo being made that expands at subsonic velocity... check out the military arms channel on youtube... the test the ammo and hunt some pigs with it and it puts them down!!!

 

[justin22885]

But if you look around, there is 300bo ammo being made that expands at subsonic velocity... check out the military arms channel on youtube... the test the ammo and hunt some pigs with it and it puts them down!!!

maybe if you want to hunt and search for uncommon specialty ammunition at much higher costs just to do the same job as ANY 230 grain 45acp cartridge

 

[farmerboy78]

The 300bo was designed to get better ballistics over ANY pistol ammo, which equates to further range at similar speeds... although a .45 acp may shoot 50-60 yds, it will drop like a brick at 100yds... and if I recall buffalo bore doesn't make subsonic like the original poster has asked about... they make +P ammo which in itself is stupid expensive for what it is... the blackout outdoes the acp hands down all the way around, that's not debatable! It's proven! But I am not an advocate of the blackout unless it's in a well built ar for semiautomatic fire! As I said ealier, I sold my blackout due to its inadequacy in a bolt gun...

 

[justin22885]

The 300bo was designed to get better ballistics over ANY pistol ammo, which equates to further range at similar speeds... although a .45 acp may shoot 50-60 yds, it will drop like a brick at 100yds... and if I recall buffalo bore doesn't make subsonic like the original poster has asked about... they make +P ammo which in itself is stupid expensive for what it is... the blackout outdoes the acp hands down all the way around, that's not debatable! It's proven! But I am not an advocate of the blackout unless it's in a well built ar for semiautomatic fire! As I said ealier, I sold my blackout due to its inadequacy in a bolt gun...

you get a bit more range due to a higher ballistic coefficient bullet, however youre still going to have enormous amounts of drop and relatively low energy at beyond pistol ranges.. it'll retain the energy longer, but generally speaking youre still not going to be very accurate with it at longer distances due to the drop any 1100fps cartridge is going to suffer

and inside 100 yards the 45acp is going to have more power, more expansion, and deliver more trauma than 300 blackout

 

[justin22885]

lets do a comparison, 230 grain 45acp hornady XTP at 1100 vs 220 grain hornady ELD-X

230 grain hornady XTP

muzzle is 618ft/lbs muzzle energy
50 yards 563ft/lbs with a drop of 4 inches
100 yards 520dt/lbs with a drop of 15.91 inches
150 yards 486ft/lbs with a drop of 36.36 inches
200 yards 456ft/lbs with a drop of 65.94 inches

with a 100 yard zero youd only have to aim 12 inches high at 150 yards and 36 inches high at 200 yards, both are quite doable

__

300 blackout 220 grain hornady ELX-X

muzzle is 591ft/lbs of energy
50 yards is 569ft/lbs and 3.93 inches of drop
100 yards is 549 ft/lbs and 15.35 inches of drop
150 yards is 530ft/lbs and 34.52 inches of drop
200 yards is 514ft/lbs and 61.69 inches of drop

with a 100 yards zero you aim 11.24" high at 150 yards, and 30.49" at 200

__

so, the drop and time of flight between the two are virtually identical, the 300 blackout begins to pull ahead with a bit more energy at distance, but we're talking 3 feet of drop at 200 yards, youre not going to be accurate much beyond that and it clearly shows the 45acp is easily capable of being accurate in a carbine out to 200 yards with enough energy to kill anything on this continent.. that said you will have a much larger bullet selection, ammo will cost a lot less, and itll have a more devastating impact on pray

45acp > 300 blackout

 

[hq]

it clearly shows the 45acp is easily capable of being accurate in a carbine out to 200 yards with enough energy to kill anything on this continent.. that said you will have a much larger bullet selection, ammo will cost a lot less, and itll have a more devastating impact on pray

That summed it up very nicely. Even though hunting anything but varmints (hogs may belong to that category) is inadvisable beyond 100 yards with subsonic rounds, ACP ammo in various configurations is so readily available that there's not even a need to handload. Pretty much everything is already subsonic, even when fired from a carbine length barrel. Additionally .45 bullets are specifically designed to work at subsonic impact velocities and their diameter is already large enough to reduce the importance of mushrooming.

.45ACP has never been intended for a purpose like this but many desirable factors are already there for a nearly ideal low(ish) cost suppressed medium game hunting carbine. Only when we deviate to larger CXP2 game, there's a real need for more power. Which is where my idea of super heavy slugs from a shotgun originally spawned.

As a sidenote, .32ACP is also a viable alternative to .22lr in subsonic applications. Too bad that there aren't many long guns chambered to it; the only one I remember (and have tried to find for a long time) is Armi Jäger / Kassnar AP74.

 

[agtman]

A subsonic 308 is not going to have an advantage over a subsonic 300blk but both can be accurate.

Totally agree.

Before the .300BLK appeared, subsonic .308 loads made sense when shot suppressed.

After the .300BLK became the caliber-phenom it presently is, and which runs on either the popular AR-platform or in a bolt gun, a .308 sub-load makes much less sense, unless you're talking about a particularly accurate handload that's preferred by a certain make/model of rifle you own.

I've tried the .308 subs, but when we're talking about similar ranges and hunting applications, a suppressed .300BLK gets you there with less blast and cost, but with the same accuracy. And transitioning into it off a 5.56 AR you already own is much easier.

In my case, I wanted to build a dedicated "hog slayer" and, for secondary use, have it serve as a short-range deer gun.

Obligatory pic below. Can is an AAC SDN-6. It's MOA-to-sub-MOA with a few of the 220gn OTM subs.

 

[dubbleA]

lets do a comparison, 230 grain 45acp hornady XTP at 1100 vs 220 grain hornady ELD-X

230 grain hornady XTP

muzzle is 618ft/lbs muzzle energy
50 yards 563ft/lbs with a drop of 4 inches
100 yards 520dt/lbs with a drop of 15.91 inches
150 yards 486ft/lbs with a drop of 36.36 inches
200 yards 456ft/lbs with a drop of 65.94 inches

with a 100 yard zero youd only have to aim 12 inches high at 150 yards and 36 inches high at 200 yards, both are quite doable

__

300 blackout 220 grain hornady ELX-X

muzzle is 591ft/lbs of energy
50 yards is 569ft/lbs and 3.93 inches of drop
100 yards is 549 ft/lbs and 15.35 inches of drop
150 yards is 530ft/lbs and 34.52 inches of drop
200 yards is 514ft/lbs and 61.69 inches of drop

with a 100 yards zero you aim 11.24" high at 150 yards, and 30.49" at 200

__

so, the drop and time of flight between the two are virtually identical, the 300 blackout begins to pull ahead with a bit more energy at distance, but we're talking 3 feet of drop at 200 yards, youre not going to be accurate much beyond that and it clearly shows the 45acp is easily capable of being accurate in a carbine out to 200 yards with enough energy to kill anything on this continent.. that said you will have a much larger bullet selection, ammo will cost a lot less, and itll have a more devastating impact on pray

45acp > 300 blackout

Just for grins I ran some numbers too. The 45acp hornady 230gr xtp and Sierra 240gr SMK were used. Both starting at 1100fps. With the high BC of the SMK there isn't a .45 cal acp bullet that can outrun it. Look at the energy the 300 black out has.
Its nearly retains as much energy at 300 yards as the 45 Acp has at the muzzle. Throw in a 10 mph wind and the blackout has less than half the wind drift as the 230gr xtp.

45 ACP



300 Black Out


The winner here is clearly the 300 BO it's tops in all categories.

 

[jmorris]

Just for grins I ran some numbers too. The 45acp hornady 230gr xtp and Sierra 240gr SMK were used. Both starting at 1100fps. With the high BC of the SMK there isn't a .45 cal acp bullet that can outrun it. Look at the energy the 300 black out has.
Its nearly retains as much energy at 300 yards as the 45 Acp has at the muzzle.

Yeah, but a 405 out of a 458 socom has more energy at 300 yds than the 300 has at the muzzle not that you would be hunting with subsonic ammo at that distance anyway.

 

[rsrocket1]

You certainly can be accurate at 50 yards with a subsonic bullet. Here is a test load using 200g Cast bullets at 1012 fps and 1005 fps. 200 grain bullets behind the ear will certainly ruin a hog's day. It's only about 450 ft-lbs at the muzzle and, but the momentum of a 200g bullet hits pretty hard and at 50 yards you're only down to 436 ft-lbs.


Also take a look at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBORz_9Qyzg

Go to 6:30 to skip to the actual shoot.

 

[Nuclear]

The only advantage the 300 Blackout has over the 45ACP is it is readily compatible with the existing AR 15 platform.

What does damage at subsonic velocities isn't retained energy, it is the diameter of the permanent wound track and depth of penetration.

And just because something has a lot of drop, it doesn't mean it is inaccurate. Just like a flat shooting round isn't necessarily accurate. Use the right terms.

 

[justin22885]

Just for grins I ran some numbers too. The 45acp hornady 230gr xtp and Sierra 240gr SMK were used. Both starting at 1100fps. With the high BC of the SMK there isn't a .45 cal acp bullet that can outrun it. Look at the energy the 300 black out has.
Its nearly retains as much energy at 300 yards as the 45 Acp has at the muzzle. Throw in a 10 mph wind and the blackout has less than half the wind drift as the 230gr xtp.


The winner here is clearly the 300 BO it's tops in all categories.

uuh, youre getting less than 1/2 of a .22lrs worth of energy more at 200 yards than 45acp, 3 inches less drop, not to mention your match kings are NOT hunting bullets, thats why theyre match kings, thirdly, just to buy the bullets alone youre spending $0.76/each, the fully loaded cartridges of which in .300 blackout is $1.95 a pop

now lets discuss whats going to do more damage on impact, your 240 grain matchking which is going to leave a .30" hole, or a 45acp JHP which unexpanded is already 50% larger, not to mention the use of JHPs like gold dots and federal HSTs which expand out close to 1" in diameter

so youre going to spend all that money on a .300 blackout rifle requiring $2 a round ammunition only to achieve absolutely inferior wounding characteristics at a gain of about 1" less drop at 150 yards or 3" at 200? doesnt seem like a wise tradeoff to me

im guessing you bought a 300 blackout rifle and were all into how fantastic it was suppressed and got all onboard with the cartridge only to realize in the end it doesnt really do anything better than a plain old 45acp thats been around for over 100 years

 

[justin22885]

oh yeah, .458 socom definitely has 300 blackout beat for suppression. i had the idea of designing a suppressed only rifle, designed from the frame up to use solely suppressed ammo..

the idea i come up with was to basically make a delisle carbine on steroids, begin with a bolt action because no gas gets released out of any other orifice than the muzzle, based this new cartridge on .45 win mag but loaded with 400+ grain .458 bullets stretching the COAL out to about 57mm (this makes it REALLY easy to handload with cheap once-fired .308 brass), and the barrel should i have built such a beast would have been an integrally suppressed barrel

 

[hq]

As a rimmed alternative, .45 Colt is also a viable cartridge for a suppressed rifle. There are plenty of lever action rifles and carbines chambered to the cartridge, factory loads are available at 300gr+ and the majority of ammo is subsonic to start with. .44 Special isn't bad either, even though bullets are typically lighter. Same principle applies to .38 Special, with 158-180gr bullet weights for smaller game. I've thought about having a bayonet-type suppressor adapter machined for my Marlin 1894C for that particular purpose.

There are quite a few common subsonic cartridges out there, which makes reinventing the wheel with brand new ones somewhat pointless.

 

[Dean1818]

To me the suppressor, for hunting applications, is to use with supersonic rounds

The subsonics..... in almost all cases, deliver less than stellar results in hunting applictaions (I havenet looked at the 458 socom)

If I want to impress my friends, I would load subsonics (But not a priority for this old dude)

With a suppressor, at supersonic rounds, I personally believe that a shot or two
(normal hunting) will have limited hearing problems

Its still loud, but substancially less


I am looking at the 277 Wolverine to add a suppressor to and may add one for my great pig slayer.... a Bison Armory 6.8

 

[agtman]

* * * So youre going to spend all that money on a .300 blackout rifle requiring $2 a round ammunition only to achieve absolutely inferior wounding characteristics at a gain of about 1" less drop at 150 yards or 3" at 200 ...

It's not "all that money" to set up a .300BLK "rifle."

In my case, because I already owned a 5.56 MRP with a registered SBR lower, I just bought the 10.5" .300 barrel when LMT put it on sale ( something like $290-$300). It runs the same 5.56mm BCG and mags.

But MRPs are switch-barrel propositions ... For guys with a typical 5.56 AR carbine, all they need is a .300BLK upper, and dozens of folks are making them, so there's ample price competition.