justin22885
member
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2009
- Messages
- 2,102
not going to happen, no feral pigs this far north to do a photo shoot with
Suppressed hog hunting
- Thread starter Morrey
- Start date
- Status
Not trying to be impolite or anything, but would you think anyone who presents a known good solution and backs it up with ballistic facts should have first-hand experience of the particular subject at hand? Personally I haven't shot a hog with a .45ACP rifle or carbine - I don't even own a .45ACP carbine (yet... unless 1928 Thompson SMG counts), but I've shot about half a dozen with subsonic .44:s, with identical except slightly lighter bullets than can be had in off the shelf .45ACP ammo, at identical velocities, with excellent results. Given these facts, I'd hazard an educated guess that .45 with its heavier and larger diameter bullets works even better and that's why I suggested it earlier in the first place.
justin22885
member
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2009
- Messages
- 2,102
i do agree with what you said, its generally an answer looking for a question.. its not bad for what it does, but it doesnt do anything other options dont already do and that many do better
the simple fact is youre not going to find quality hunting ammo in 220 grain for .308, match kings are not hunting ammunition on top of being quite expensive, other 220 grain options are not much better and IF you find one that has serious wounding potential in the 220 grain category its designed to do so at velocities twice what the blackout produces, while generally speaking the 230 grain 45acps coming out a carbine are at much higher velocities than what the bullet was designed for... at 200 yards youre hitting with the energy they were designed to expand at out of a 45acp pistol at close range
Last edited:
Well... it feeds nicely with a standard AR lower. Its nearest ballistic equivalent, 7.62x39, works properly with a specific lower like LAR47, Mutant or the like. In the 90's I used to travel with a case of 2-3 uppers and one lower, but soon realized it wasn't really worth the hassle. I currently have only a couple of spare .223 uppers and one 9mm, all others have been built to complete guns. There's no shortage of lowers at this time and having learned from previous ones, I have spares.
AR has evolved into an extremely versatile platform, but it's by far at its best with some specific parts that more often than not address the limitations of the stock magwell. A new caliber to address that limitation isn't quite as elegant as a workaround in the rifle design itself. To many people, myself included, 500 rounds during an afternoon at the range isn't unheard of, and when that adds up to $1000 instead of just over $100 it's time to consider the sheer economics of different calibers.
Ok. We have digressed quite a bit from the subject of suppressed hog hunting. I'd get a Mech Tech 1911 conversion kit, have the barrel cut down and a reflex suppressor permanently attached, install a nice low magnification scope, get a bunch of regular 1911 7/8 round mags and call it done.
But that's just me.
dubbleA
Member
Posting this again, shooting at sub sonic speeds this clearly shows the superior ballistics of the 240 SMK over a 230 gr .45. Not to mention that the 300 BO is Capable of shooting this bullet and many others at super sonic speeds. Can your 45 acp carbine do that? Certainly not as it needs a carbine length barrel just to achieve 1100 fps.
I live in the real world, I agree that the SMK is designed as a match bullet but the fact remains myself and thousands of others use them on animals. They work well knowing their limitations. A SMK placed through the heart, lungs or brain kills with no mushrooming needed. Here in Texas hogs are conisidered pests. My family has a helicopter service and one of the services offered is hog control. You might gasp but 10 of thousands of FMJ rounds are used every year in killing hogs. Hogs can run but they just die tired. No the blackout isn't used in aerial shooting the lowly 223 in a suppressed SBR platform is just for shear economics.
I don't sit behind the keyboard and type things up about a subject I don't have any first hand knowledge on. Let me just say I have killed a few hogs in my life.
300 BO
45 acp
Ok. I'm trying to make this the last time anyone will need to explain you the basics, so read carefully. Repeat if needed.
External ballistics are one thing. The bullet flies in an arch trajectory, dropping more and more over distance. Yippee. Gravity at work! The bullet and target are supposed to meet at some point and with any subsonic bullet ranging the distance is paramount in order for that to happen. It's not difficult unless you expect a laser-straight trajectory and have no idea of bullet drop at any given distance of the round you use for hunting, in which case you shouldn't be hunting but at the range figuring out this basic factor.
Following me so far? Good.
Next, if you've followed The Successful Hunter's Playbook to the letter, the bullet impacts the game animal, which we're going to call the target. In a perfect world the bullet goes through the heart, causing a massive drop of blood pressure, depriving the brain of the target of the flow of oxygenated blood, causing the target to lose consciousness in a fraction of a second.
However, we don't live in a perfect world. There are a number of factors like human error, which cause the impact point to deviate from ideal. In that case, the bullet usually goes through lungs and soft tissue surrounding it. The hit is fatal, but instead of collapsing, the target takes off. Usually at a great speed. And runs. And runs. And runs, until the loss of blood via internal and/or external bleeding is too much for the central nervous system to continue operating. At that point the target loses consciousness and collapses.
The rate of bleeding, hemorrhaging, is highly dependent on the wound inflicted. It comprises mainly of the permanent wound channel, as - like I mentioned earlier in this thread - hydrodynamic shock by a low velocity bullet is very limited. Flesh, as we know it, is very flexible, especially muscle tissue. The surface area for hemorrhaging is determined by the length and diameter of the wound channel, as well as the number and diameter of blood vessels, ideally arteries, that cross paths with it.
A tough, small diameter bullet that has no chance to expand at impact velocity passes through unexpanded. Let's say that the diameter is 0.3" and wound channel length is 12 inches. In that case the surface area of the wound is 22.62 square inches. Fair enough. Considering what I mentioned about the flexibility of tissue, there's a good chance a wound this size will be partially closed by muscles and skin. In that case, hemorrhaging is greatly reduced, much in the same fashion as when pressure is applied on any wound.
You've taken a hunters' first aid class so you know this, don't you? In military training they explained this in a bit more detail but basic principle will do for now. So we go on.
Let's change one variable. The bullet. 0.45" is a good example and as many pistol bullets of that diameter are designed to expand on impact, let's say the wound channel diameter is a still conservative 0.75". We're not shooting Black Talons now, they're collectible and expensive. At the same time, in spite of the bullet being heavier, penetration will be slightly shallower, say 10 inches. What just happened to the wound channel? Its surface area increased over 108%, to 47.12 square inches. On top of that the hole in the skin is 0.45", greatly reducing the probability of flexible tissue preventing hemorrhaging. On the inside in porous lung tissue the hole is 0.75", keeping up massive hemorrhaging to the lungs, reducing blood pressure rapidly, filling the lungs with liquid that prevents oxygen absorbing to the bloodstream effectively drowning the target in its own blood.
This is far, far, FAR more meaningful factor than a tiny, miserable one inch more drop at 150 yards, which by itself is extremely easy to compensate providing that some superhuman hunter actually can place a subsonic bullet in real life hunting situation to the accuracy of an inch at that distance.
This concludes the Real Life Meaning of terminal ballistics vs. in flight external ballistics fresh out of the nearest theoretical benchrest calculator.
I also see you got back to the "capable of shooting this bullet at supersonic speeds" -excuse. So it is. So is .308, which by itself gives a whole new meaning to supersonic compared to anything .300BO will ever be capable of. That doesn't make subsonic .308 rounds any better for hunting than .300BO, which can't hold a candle in all-important terminal ballistics to old, measly .45ACP. Or .45 Colt. Or .44 Special. Or even .38 Special for that matter.
By the way, a long time ago, in early 90's if my memory serves, I came across a couple of boxes of russian 7.62x39 subsonics, loaded with copper plated instead of copper jacketed bullets. They did a marvelous job of expanding on impact at their rated 1050fps velocity, mushrooming to .7" or so. I've tried to get my hands on more of those, even bare bullets would suffice for reloading, but to no avail. Those are by far the only rifle caliber subsonic rounds I've found that actually work by expanding sufficiently, instead of just plowing through tissue punching a hole of a nominal diameter.
If you find similar bullets for your .300BO for reloading, it'll be the first time in this lengthy conversation where it might just be comparable to pistol rounds of similar weight in hunting applications. I already asked a couple of bullet manufacturers about having them made in .308; one of them would but MOQ is a ridiculous 100.000 bullets at $.65 a pop. Until then, there's little point in trying to reinvent the wheel with a new caliber that offers no advantage over established .308 and 7.62x39 subsonics and doesn't come close to the terminal ballistics of a number of pistol rounds.
Any more questions or is this finally clear?
Thank you.
Last edited:
dubbleA
Member
I shoot heavy sub sonics in my blackouts 99% of the time. Have an AR for plinking mostly and a precision bolt for taking out/culling critters. It might not be important to you but being able to shoot such a wide range of bullets and speeds are huge benefits for a cartridge. The 300 BO brings that to the table. That alone is a ballistic advantage. The 45 acp is limited on what it can do with bullet choice and case capacity. I am certainly not knocking the 45 acp as I have handguns chambered for it as well as rifles/handguns in .45 colts.
I have no concern how fast a hog expires but a hole in the heart, brain or lung and it's done regardless if it's .30 cal or .75. There are no swine medics around to perform first aid like you can with humans. If the round misses those areas its not the fault of the bullet but the placement. Bigger more power full rounds still don't makeup bad shot placement. The shot placement is critical no doubt with the BO but I know my limitations as stated earlier. In the end whether the hog dies from a 45 acp or 300 BO it's still dead at the end of the day which is a good thing. You are not going to convince me as well as others the 45 acp is a better round suppressed or not and I wont convince you. All I can say is that many many hogs have died with a 240 smk penciling through them with no expansion needed.
justin22885,
Do you actually own a suppressed 45 acp carbine? If you do, have you killed hogs with it? What loads were you using, how far were the shots taken at. What are you suppressing with?
I have no concern how fast a hog expires but a hole in the heart, brain or lung and it's done regardless if it's .30 cal or .75. There are no swine medics around to perform first aid like you can with humans. If the round misses those areas its not the fault of the bullet but the placement. Bigger more power full rounds still don't makeup bad shot placement. The shot placement is critical no doubt with the BO but I know my limitations as stated earlier. In the end whether the hog dies from a 45 acp or 300 BO it's still dead at the end of the day which is a good thing. You are not going to convince me as well as others the 45 acp is a better round suppressed or not and I wont convince you. All I can say is that many many hogs have died with a 240 smk penciling through them with no expansion needed.
justin22885,
Do you actually own a suppressed 45 acp carbine? If you do, have you killed hogs with it? What loads were you using, how far were the shots taken at. What are you suppressing with?
Last edited:
How would we sum all this up, then?
1. In the context of this thread, suppressed hog hunting, any large diameter heavy handgun round, hands down.
2. In ballistic versatility from factory subsonics to maximum supersonic performance, .308.
3. In dedicated AR platform with consideration to cost and versatility, 7.62x39
4. Through a standard AR magwell cost-no-object, subsonic handloads, .458 SOCOM / .50 Beowulf.
5. Through a standard AR magwell cost-no-object, subsonic factory loads, .300 Blackout.
In a realm of the requirement specifically being an AR with bog standard lower (why?), with factory subsonic ammo (why?), shooting costs of which being irrelevant (why?) and settling for considerably less than ideal terminal ballistic effects (WHY?!), the answer might be .300BO. That sounds like a Kanye West backstage demand list tailored to match the specific qualities of said round, not a cost-effective or even advisable solution to anyone choosing a suppressed hog hunting gun from scratch. Much less to the OP who originally asked about subsonics in his .308, which in itself is already a ballistically more versatile caliber.
In that case keeping the .308 is a no-brainer, no question about it, and if a dedicated subsonic rifle is to be considered instead, pistol calibers are by far THE ticket for any suppressed, subsonic hunting. Paying more for less in form of .300BO, just to keep one standard AR lower in a world full of readily available lowers is a stretch by any standards. Especially to shoot 99% subsonics like you mentioned yourself, which makes little economical or practical sense. If you like yours, great, I'm happy for you. That's your choice.
By the way, as you seem so keen on practical first hand experience with subsonic hog hunting, I'd love to hear how many hogs you've taken with your .300BO, what loads you've used, how far on average the hogs have run after being shot and so forth? Not that killing is a priority with varmints, but having neighbors complain about hog carcasses rotting on their property isn't nice and there's a definite ethical standpoint in making sure the kills are clean and don't cause unnecessary suffering. So tell us about it, I'm genuinely interested in real world results and now you have a perfect opportunity to describe your own experiences in detail.
1. In the context of this thread, suppressed hog hunting, any large diameter heavy handgun round, hands down.
2. In ballistic versatility from factory subsonics to maximum supersonic performance, .308.
3. In dedicated AR platform with consideration to cost and versatility, 7.62x39
4. Through a standard AR magwell cost-no-object, subsonic handloads, .458 SOCOM / .50 Beowulf.
5. Through a standard AR magwell cost-no-object, subsonic factory loads, .300 Blackout.
In a realm of the requirement specifically being an AR with bog standard lower (why?), with factory subsonic ammo (why?), shooting costs of which being irrelevant (why?) and settling for considerably less than ideal terminal ballistic effects (WHY?!), the answer might be .300BO. That sounds like a Kanye West backstage demand list tailored to match the specific qualities of said round, not a cost-effective or even advisable solution to anyone choosing a suppressed hog hunting gun from scratch. Much less to the OP who originally asked about subsonics in his .308, which in itself is already a ballistically more versatile caliber.
In that case keeping the .308 is a no-brainer, no question about it, and if a dedicated subsonic rifle is to be considered instead, pistol calibers are by far THE ticket for any suppressed, subsonic hunting. Paying more for less in form of .300BO, just to keep one standard AR lower in a world full of readily available lowers is a stretch by any standards. Especially to shoot 99% subsonics like you mentioned yourself, which makes little economical or practical sense. If you like yours, great, I'm happy for you. That's your choice.
By the way, as you seem so keen on practical first hand experience with subsonic hog hunting, I'd love to hear how many hogs you've taken with your .300BO, what loads you've used, how far on average the hogs have run after being shot and so forth? Not that killing is a priority with varmints, but having neighbors complain about hog carcasses rotting on their property isn't nice and there's a definite ethical standpoint in making sure the kills are clean and don't cause unnecessary suffering. So tell us about it, I'm genuinely interested in real world results and now you have a perfect opportunity to describe your own experiences in detail.
der Teufel
Member
Gas pressure with most suppressors and subsonic ammo is roughly equivalent to that of full power ammo unsuppressed. Some subsonic rounds FTF without a can but once you screw one on, they work great. Both calibers are limited by availability of bullets that expand to any meaningful degree if at all at subsonic impact velocities. Factory ammo cost difference between the two is close to tenfold (!!!) and the possibility of handloading the larger AR specific .458 SOCOM and .50 Beowulf instead makes the .300BO all but redundant in this context. On top of the obvious bullet weight difference, a number of bullets available in either caliber are designed to expand at low velocities, unlike pretty much any rifle caliber bullet. If there's even one such .308 or .311 jacketed/plated bullet available commercially, I'd really like to hear about it for my own subsonic loads.
To recoup: Factory ammo -> 7.62x39. Handloads -> SOCOM or Beowulf.
I've tried to like .300BO. I really have. When all the facts are on the table, I fail to see it as much else than a harshly overpriced ballistic twin of 7.62x39 for those who insist on using a standard magwell AR lower for anything and everything. After the first 1000 rounds you could have bought a complete LAR47 rifle with the money you've spent on ammo, which IMO is insane. The whole idea and premise of one lower and multiple uppers has been to save money, not to waste it.
Of course not, subsonic vs. subsonic in different calibers that's what this is all about.
Several pistol calibers are subsonic to start with, use heavy, large caliber bullets specifically designed to expand even further at low impact velocities and ammo is cheap and plentiful. .308 and 7.62x39 are just two examples of rifle calibers for which subsonic factory ammo has been commonly available for several decades. There's absolutely nothing unique or special about .300BO except being able to feed through AR mags and magwell and the eye-watering price of ammo.
That's really it.
- Status
Similar threads
