Found this at arfcom thought it would be good to repost it here.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=134891131
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=134891131
Suspicious AK 47 receiver on gb
- Thread starter Marcus84
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briansmithwins
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Wonder which ATF agent thought this one up...
BSW
BSW
j-easy
Member
I remember a while back someone was selling a AR Pistol with a fore grip attached on GB.
Eightball
Member
I love the picture of the safety selector--there's obviously "Safe", "1", and then another option. Hmmmmm......what could that be, I wonder?
Maverick223
Member
Looks like a good deal...even comes with free rent and meals. Also a good way to meet new friends. 
Looks like the last time he sold anything was 2005. I'm not the paranoid type, but that alone seems pretty suspicious to me.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewUserFeedback.asp?User=481114
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewUserFeedback.asp?User=481114
DMK
Member
I've seen folks do stupid stuff like that at ranges and gunshows. Most of the time they won't listen to reason either.
Wouldn't that be entrapment and an illegal bust? I mean a cop can't just come up to you and sell you a stolen watch then bust you for it. How would this be different?
praharin
Member
ignorance is not a legal excuse. Though in this case, I think the seller would be at fault as it's not unreasonable that someone wouldn't recognize a FA receiver.
Looks like someone bought it...
Looks like someone bought it...
Maverick223
Member
Wonder if he ships to Cali?
General Geoff
Member
How does that jibe with mens rea?
alemonkey
Member
Hmm....that's just down the road a couple hours from here. Seller doesn't seem to be the sharpest knife in the drawer, judging by his writing skills.
Interestingly enough, there's a machine gun shoot coming up soon in Kearney.
Interestingly enough, there's a machine gun shoot coming up soon in Kearney.
jojo200517
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I'm wondering why it had a 1 and a 3 beside the marks. Is there a such thing as a 3 round burst on an ak? I thought they were either semi auto only, or semi and full auto selections.
If one bought this and built it to only have semi auto parts inside would it still be illegal?
If one bought this and built it to only have semi auto parts inside would it still be illegal?
Maverick223
Member
Yes sir, no full auto parts...especially the receiver.
nalioth
Member
It was most likely an AIMS-74 receiver with 4 selector positions: Safe (unmarked) - full auto (the infinity symbol) - 3 round burst - single shot.jojo200517 said:
"Once a machine gun, always a machine gun" - ATFjojo200517 said:
Maverick223
Member
Just wanted to clarify that full auto parts are not illegal, with the exception of the receiver (please correct me if I am wrong), but you cannot use the parts (without a licensed MG) nor can you own/have in you possession an unlicensed firearm that said parts will fit.
A mistake of law is never a defense. That is, the buyer couldn't say, when busted and told it's an MG, "I didn't know I couldn't buy an MG."
A mistake of fact, however, can serve as an effective defense. So, if the buyer truly doesn't understand the significance of the item, he may have a way out of a criminal prosecution.
The minute he becomes aware of it, though - the game changes. Even if he were to stumble across this thread, that could well be held to have put him on notice - actual or constructive - of the nature of the weapon and therefore obligate him to take appropriate action (turn it in to BATFE) immediately.
A mistake of fact, however, can serve as an effective defense. So, if the buyer truly doesn't understand the significance of the item, he may have a way out of a criminal prosecution.
The minute he becomes aware of it, though - the game changes. Even if he were to stumble across this thread, that could well be held to have put him on notice - actual or constructive - of the nature of the weapon and therefore obligate him to take appropriate action (turn it in to BATFE) immediately.
Maverick223
Member
What do you guys think about the seller...Is he a shyster or a idiot, personally I think he is a little of both...or do you really think that he is an BATF agent?
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Aaron Baker
Member
Two important points to understand in this thread:
Federal firearms laws don't generally have a "mens rea" or mental component to them. You don't have to "intend" to own a machine gun and own it. You just have to own it.
That's what's called a strict liability crime. Like running a traffic light.
In other words, if you run the traffic light or own the illegal machine gun, it doesn't matter that it was a mistake or you didn't know. Your intent isn't important to the law. You're still guilty.
(That's different than most crimes we know of, like murder, where doing something accidentally doesn't make you guilty.)
The other point is about entrapment. A cop offering to sell you a stolen watch isn't entrapment, as long as you know it's stolen. Just like a cop offering to sell you drugs isn't entrapment. Entrapment involves the cops coercing you to commit a crime that you weren't predisposed to commit. If you would have committed it whether it was a cop making the sale or not, it's not entrapment.
Not sure how that would work out in court on this one. If you bought a full auto receiver and you didn't know it was full auto, then it could be entrapment in the context of a strict liability crime.
But if you knew that you were buying a receiver with an extra hole, then you're toast. And if you're planning to build your own AK, then you probably have some idea of what you're looking at when you see a receiver.
Aaron
Federal firearms laws don't generally have a "mens rea" or mental component to them. You don't have to "intend" to own a machine gun and own it. You just have to own it.
That's what's called a strict liability crime. Like running a traffic light.
In other words, if you run the traffic light or own the illegal machine gun, it doesn't matter that it was a mistake or you didn't know. Your intent isn't important to the law. You're still guilty.
(That's different than most crimes we know of, like murder, where doing something accidentally doesn't make you guilty.)
The other point is about entrapment. A cop offering to sell you a stolen watch isn't entrapment, as long as you know it's stolen. Just like a cop offering to sell you drugs isn't entrapment. Entrapment involves the cops coercing you to commit a crime that you weren't predisposed to commit. If you would have committed it whether it was a cop making the sale or not, it's not entrapment.
Not sure how that would work out in court on this one. If you bought a full auto receiver and you didn't know it was full auto, then it could be entrapment in the context of a strict liability crime.
But if you knew that you were buying a receiver with an extra hole, then you're toast. And if you're planning to build your own AK, then you probably have some idea of what you're looking at when you see a receiver.
Aaron
DMK
Member
I think Aaron's right about this. If you knew and were willing to commit a crime then it's not entrapment. If an undercover agent were selling the AK receiver, I think he/she would want to document an exchange where they said something offhand about it being a machine gun. That would give you the rope to hang yourself when it went to court.
I believe that sale is a case of ignorance of the seller (maybe both parties) though. I've seen enough people say and do stupid things at ranges and gun shops. There are many, many people out there who are ignorant of the laws.
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The seller in this situation may be ignorant and if so he is posting proof of Felony possession on the internet. If it's not a sting I would think the auction would have been removed or noticed by the Feds leading to an arrest since the seller is already guilty of possession.
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