SWC for self defense?

[hurrakane212]

How do Semi-Wad-cutters work for self defense/home defense. Remington UMC .357 mag SWC was the cheapest round wal-mart had. So my snubbie is loaded with them right now. I hear they are good for hunting. If they are good for hunting, why not self defense? overpenetration?~Nathan

 

[355sigfan]

How do Semi-Wad-cutters work for self defense/home defense. Remington UMC .357 mag SWC was the cheapest round wal-mart had. So my snubbie is loaded with them right now. I hear they are good for hunting. If they are good for hunting, why not self defense? overpenetration?~Nathan

They will not expand in soft tissue. You will poke a .357 hole in the perp vs a .65 to .70 caliber hole with a good JHP. Hunting is different from combat. People are thin skinned animals relatively thin and not near as musclar. Rounds for people need less penetration than rounds for hunting.
Pat

 

[MCgunner]

From hunting experience, the 158 grain SWC will leave a 3" diameter of destroyed tissue in lungs, but will penetrate completely, three or four walls behind the subject, grandma sleeping in the back bed room, out to the neighborhood. Not my favorite bullet for SD. However, it kills game, it will kill BGs with a good, solid hit. I popped off a box this morning at the range. I handload gas checked cast SWCs and they're about my favorite outdoor round closely followed by the 180 grain hollow point Hornady XTPs I also load which are more accurate, if more expensive and stout in recoil.

For SD, try to find some 125 grain JHP loads. Go to a gun shop if need be. They are the loads to which all other calibers are judges far as self defense goes. They will also recoil a bit less than the 158 grainers. The 158s will serve, I just don't like their over-penetration potential. That penetration is a GOOD thing when you're shooting supper afield, but humans ain't deer and the city ain't the deer stand.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Actually, if you want to use a cast solid for self defense, a wadcutter is best.

Vernal Smith mixed sand with ballistic gelatin, dipped bullet noses in paint and fired them into the gelatin. The recovered bullets had a crust of paint and sand only on the meplat -- none on the shoulders. This demonstrates that the shoulders of a semi-wadcutter do not contribute to the wounding effect -- the nose creates a shockwave and the shoulders do not touch flesh.

 

[Kamicosmos]

They will also recoil a bit less than the 158 grainers.

I found that the 158 gr Magnums have a less sharp recoil impulse that 125 grain loads do, at least in my SP101.

But, definitely try several different loads to see what you and your gun prefers.

I figure most any .357 Mag load will get the job done with good hits, snubbie launch platform or not. That's why my primary CCW is the SP101 with 158 JSP loads.

 

[355sigfan]

I found that the 158 gr Magnums have a less sharp recoil impulse that 125 grain loads do, at least in my SP101.

But, definitely try several different loads to see what you and your gun prefers.

I figure most any .357 Mag load will get the job done with good hits, snubbie launch platform or not. That's why my primary CCW is the SP101 with 158 JSP loads.

Ballistically speaking you would be better off with any of the good 9mm jhp's than the strongest 357 mag softpoint.
Pat

 

[slopemeno]

Regarding the SWC, I think Elmer Keith was years ahead of his time with that bullet design. I'm suprised some of the larger ammo manufacturers havent come out with an 45 ACP H&G 68 factory load, making 185 PF, with heavy taper crimp. It'll feed in most (taper crimp is key) 1911's and do it all: Defense, hunting and target shooting.

In .357, I wouldnt feel undergunned with the average 158 SWC, but it is a little heavy on the penetration. That being said, how much more penetration does it have than a JHP? A shooting that I have quite a bit if interest in featured a .357 mag 158 gn jhp bullet hitting the suspect in the kidney area, passing through side to side, and exiting, and the bullet wasnt recovered. Suspect dropped momentarily, then got up and continued running. How much worse would the SWC have performed? And maybe, since it has good penetration, the velocity doesnt have to be quite so high then? Then its not quite so painfully loud for shooting indoors, etc. So maybe a 158 SWC at 1100 fps? About 173 PF?

 

[355sigfan]

A 158 grain SWC should be able to go more than 30 inches in gelatin. Thats way way too much. 12 to 16 is a good range. So think complete penetration of 2 people or more. ALso your giving up a lot of wounding potential. A 70 caliber hold (from a jhp) is better and will bleed more than a .357 caliber hole form a swc.
Pat

 

[MCgunner]

Regarding the SWC, I think Elmer Keith was years ahead of his time with that bullet design. I'm suprised some of the larger ammo manufacturers havent come out with an 45 ACP H&G 68 factory load, making 185 PF, with heavy taper crimp. It'll feed in most (taper crimp is key) 1911's and do it all: Defense, hunting and target shooting.

In .357, I wouldnt feel undergunned with the average 158 SWC, but it is a little heavy on the penetration. That being said, how much more penetration does it have than a JHP? A shooting that I have quite a bit if interest in featured a .357 mag 158 gn jhp bullet hitting the suspect in the kidney area, passing through side to side, and exiting, and the bullet wasnt recovered. Suspect dropped momentarily, then got up and continued running. How much worse would the SWC have performed? And maybe, since it has good penetration, the velocity doesnt have to be quite so high then? Then its not quite so painfully loud for shooting indoors, etc. So maybe a 158 SWC at 1100 fps? About 173 PF?

A) Elmer Keith was a hunter, not a law man. I admired the man, though, for his contributions to the sport, being a hunter myself.

B) Your shooting involves poor shot placement.

C) The 158 JHP is not the best load, either. The 125 grain JHPs will transfer more energy to flesh and cause more direct tissue damage. If it's not overpenetrating, where do you suppose all that energy is going?

D) Power factor is a measurement of momentum used in games. SD is no game. Velocity is indeed very important in that it effects energy exponentially. Slowing the bullet down is NOT a good thing unless you just can't handle the recoil well enough to hit the proper bullet placement. Giving up energy in favor of better shot placement is a good thing in this case.

 

[tbeb]

I used the .357 magnum Winchester USA 110 gr. JHP in a Smith & Wesson Model 66 with a 2 1/2" barrel. I used the .357 magnum Winchester Silvertip 145 gr. JHP in a Ruger GP-100 with a 4" barrel. I like JHP's for self defense. The 110 gr. JHP bullet is a little light, but the old .38 special +P+ Winchester "Treasury Load" (110 gr. JHP bullet) worked pretty good against bad guys, so the above 110 gr. JHP should work just as well.

There's nothing wrong with a 158 gr. swc for self defense, but I wouldn't use .357 magnum caliber. I would use .38 special +P caliber. From a 4" barrel it's moving about 350 fps slower than the UMC load you bought. It would be much easier to control in a snubby, and it would give good penetration.

 

[clt46910]

some of what is being said here is old stuff we believed a few years ago. Things have changed and we need to update our knowledge and information. Learn the new stuff coming out in new metals and the way they are used.

 

[bpisler]

Unless you live where hollow points are banned
i don't think there's a good reason to use any
thing else for personal defense.There's just too
many good hollow points to pick from to keep
someone from finding a load that fits your needs.

 

[isp2605]

In the 1970s the FBI issued both the 158 gr .357 SWC (non-HP) from Remington and Winchester; however, they were to only be carried for reload. The 158 gr .38 LSWCHP+P was suppose to be the only rd loaded in the gun for regular carry.
The Remington rd is on the left, W-W in the center, and a W-W 158 Gr .38 LSWCHP+P is on the right. Federal was also issued in .38 LSWCHP+P but I must have shot all those. Of the .357 rds I prefer the W-W loading over the Remington. The W-W has a wider meplat and sharper shoulder. The Remington tends to penetrate a bit deeper but penetration was not a worry for either rd as they both penetrate much deeper than necessary for personnel use.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

In the 1970s the FBI issued both the 158 gr .357 SWC (non-HP) from Remington and Winchester; however, they were to only be carried for reload. The 158 gr .38 LSWCHP+P was suppose to be the only rd loaded in the gun for regular carry.
The Remington rd is on the left, W-W in the center, and a W-W 158 Gr .38 LSWCHP+P is on the right. Federal was also issued in .38 LSWCHP+P but I must have shot all those. Of the .357 rds I prefer the W-W loading over the Remington. The W-W has a wider meplat and sharper shoulder.

The shoulder, as Vernal Smith so conclusively demonstrated, has no wounding effect -- it flys in the shockwave created by the meplat.

 

[mbartel]

How do Semi-Wad-cutters work for self defense/home defense. Remington UMC .357 mag SWC was the cheapest round wal-mart had.

Don't you think you and your family's safety is worth more than the cheapest ammo Wal-Mart had? Dig into your pocket there bud, and get some REAL SD ammo, that is designed for the job. It's only one box......it's not going to kill ya to get high performance ammo. But it could if you don't...

 

[isp2605]

The shoulder, as Vernal Smith so conclusively demonstrated, has no wounding effect -- it flys in the shockwave created by the meplat.

No argument here. Notice I said I prefer the W-W which has a wider meplat than the Remington. It's that W-W meplat design why I like the W-W better.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Don't you think you and your family's safety is worth more than the cheapest ammo Wal-Mart had? Dig into your pocket there bud, and get some REAL SD ammo, that is designed for the job. It's only one box......it's not going to kill ya to get high performance ammo. But it could if you don't...

Price isn't a guarentee of quality -- look at actual performance from your weapon first.

And you will certainly buy more than one box -- you need to buy enough to ensure reliability of performance in your weapon. If you handload, you can keep the cost of factory ammo reasonable, but if you don't -- you wind up shooting your carry load a lot.

 

[mbartel]

Price isn't a guarentee of quality -- look at actual performance from your weapon first.

And you will certainly buy more than one box -- you need to buy enough to ensure reliability of performance in your weapon. If you handload, you can keep the cost of factory ammo reasonable, but if you don't -- you wind up shooting your carry load a lot.

And the lowest price certainly won't gaurantee it.
I would never base my choice on SD ammo on the lowest price.
Look on the internet.....there is a wealth of data that demonstrates bullets designed for SD will out perform the old LSW bullet.

Fact: high performance premium bullets designed for SD are more expensive than LSW bullets. The fact that the poster mentioned that this was the cheapest ammo at the store, indicated this was the incentive to buy it. Hardly a top priority in choosing SD ammo.


It isn't necessary to run several boxes of ammo through a revolver, like you would for a semi-auto. There is no feeding-firing-extraction cycle to test in a revolver, with a lot of ammo. Six cylinders full will tell you if your revolver is happy with the ammo. If a revolver has problems with reliable firing, it is usually (but not always) a mechanical issue, that would be a problem with any ammo. In a semi-auto, the mechanicals might be perfect, but it still might have a problem with certain ammo. Therefore a more exhaustive reliability test should be done. I have heard 200 rounds mentioned as a minimum number of rounds to run through any semi-auto used for SD. Sounds like a good number to me...

 

[Vern Humphrey]

And the lowest price certainly won't gaurantee it.
I would never base my choice on SD ammo on the lowest price.
Look on the internet.....there is a wealth of data that demonstrates bullets designed for SD will out perform the old LSW bullet.

It depends. A bullet that works well at one velocity may not work so well at a significantly higher or lower velocity.

Fact: high performance premium bullets designed for SD are more expensive than LSW bullets. The fact that the poster mentioned that this was the cheapest ammo at the store, indicated this was the incentive to buy it. Hardly a top priority in choosing SD ammo.

I agree -- but with the variables involved (barrel length, among other things) and the fads and hype in ammo, I'd want to test my ammo before trusting my life with it.

It isn't necessary to run several boxes of ammo through a revolver, like you would for a semi-auto. There is no feeding-firing-extraction cycle to test in a revolver, with a lot of ammo. Six cylinders full will tell you if your revolver is happy with the ammo. If a revolver has problems with reliable firing, it is usually (but not always) a mechanical issue, that would be a problem with any ammo. In a semi-auto, the mechanicals might be perfect, but it still might have a problem with certain ammo. Therefore a more exhaustive reliability test should be done. I have heard 200 rounds mentioned as a minimum number of rounds to run through any semi-auto used for SD. Sounds like a good number to me...

Things like jumping crimp, shooting to point of aim, complete burn in your revolver are all matters of concern -- the first and last of these can tie up a revolver tighter than you can untie it in a hurry.

In any case, if you trust your life with a gun, you need to shoot it -- a lot. And whatever ammo you use in practice must match what you carry on the street. That means either reload or shoot your carry ammo in quantity.

 

[hurrakane212]

And the lowest price certainly won't gaurantee it.
I would never base my choice on SD ammo on the lowest price.
Look on the internet.....there is a wealth of data that demonstrates bullets designed for SD will out perform the old LSW bullet.

Fact: high performance premium bullets designed for SD are more expensive than LSW bullets. The fact that the poster mentioned that this was the cheapest ammo at the store, indicated this was the incentive to buy it. Hardly a top priority in choosing SD ammo.

Actually it was what I bought to go plinking with (The SWCs) I was just kinda wondering how they performed. I plan on picking up some JHPs next paycheck. I just kinda figured since I allready had these I'd ask about em.~Nathan

 

[EddieCoyle]

Actually it was what I bought to go plinking with (The SWCs) I was just kinda wondering how they performed. I plan on picking up some JHPs next paycheck. I just kinda figured since I allready had these I'd ask about em.~Nathan

If that's all you've got, they're way better than an empty gun. With that said, I always carry 158gr LSWCHP +P in my .38 snubbie. However, with non-HP in a .357 I'd be very worried about over penetration.

 

[HankB]

IIRC, back in the days when people were really spending a lot of effort in trying to compute relative stopping power of handgun loads, Hatcher's original formula (based on the Thompson/LeGarde tests) was being modified every which way you could imagine, Jeff Cooper's "short form" was in vogue among a certain clique, even John "Pondoro" Taylor's Knock-Out Value formula was being (mis)applied to handgun loads.

What many of these formulas had in common was that bullet form was considered to have a major effect on handgun bullet effectiveness. A round nose lead bullet was assigned a value of 1.0, a jacketed round nose bullet, 0.9. An SWC was supposed to be 1.25. This was supposed to mean that an SWC would have 25% better stopping power than an RNL bullet of the same weight, diameter, and velocity.

That you no longer read much about these formulas says something. Maybe it was the arrival of effective JHP handgun bullets, maybe it was Marshall/Sanow statistics, maybe something else . . . your call.

 

[ChristopherG]

Look on the internet.....there is a wealth of data that demonstrates bullets designed for SD will out perform the old LSW bullet.

Is there? I mean, there's Marshall and Sanow (and the question of whether or to what extent their analysis represents real 'data' is one I'll assume we're familiar with; I'm not trying to rehash that here); and there's a tremendous amount of opinion and theory, obviously; and there's pictures of what happens when you shoot ballistic gelatin and stuff. But is there really a WEALTH of DATA showing what actually happens when people are shot with different kinds of bullets? If so, where is it?

Me, I prefer a heavy for caliber SWC or LBT bullet with a large meplate (but not a full wadcutter profile, 'cause they seem prone to tumble inside a target) when I'm carrying outside an area of dense population. Being outside frequently, I figure a dog is as likely a target as a biped, and do not want a bullet that's gonna pull up short. All that to say, I think a SWC can have a perfectly legitimate place in your carry rotation.

And, I don't think the merits of the JHP are as fully confirmed by data as many suppose. Not that I know the truth, either way; I just don't think it's as scientifically clear as all that.

 

[GruntII]

I use 3 loads in my .357 revolvers for defense. The 125 grain Golden Sabre load replaced the old petal jacket 125 grain mid range JHP remington loaded at one time. From my limited testing they open up well andpenetration good.Also street results and vyse gelitain testing seem to track with one another.
When the golden saber isn't availible I use the winchester white box 110 grain magnum jhp. It has more flash than i like but is controllable. When theline of duty injury ot my right hand is acting up I use the 158 grain Lead Semi Wadcutter Hollow point +P in .38 special (the old FBI/Chicargo PD load).
Among the new loadings I'd look at the Speer Gold Dot short barrel load in
.357 that Speer has come out with. No street results yet it was developed specifically for short barreld magnum revolvers.

 

[mbartel]

Most if not all of the greater metropolitan law enforcement agencies in the US have compiled a substantial amount of data that involves real world shootings of people, not game animals, not gelatin blocks, wet newspaper, jugs of water, or anything else that "resembles live tissue". Most average people including me, do not have ready access to that data. However, the fact that these law enforcement agencies have left the LSW behind in favor of bullets and ammo designed for offense as well as defense, should tell you something. These LEOs depend on the best bullet/ammo combo to save their lives when the need arises. You can think whatever you want about the LSW as a defensive bullet. There is a reason they are not used by the very people who must protect, and yes, sometimes take lives for a living.