Tactical rifles

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navyretired 1

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I would just like to spread a little hate and discontent. I would like some other view points and mean no disrespect to anyone.
Do we as patriots really need everyone carrying 10-12 pound rifles made for sniping if insurection ever happens. Seems like too many chiefs and not enough braves?
A rock stock AR 15 with open sights and 16" or skinney barrel can get the job done out to 500 yds with the right twist. You can build or buy a perfectly good performer for $500-$600 again.
When I first used M16 in combat I cleaned it, oiled it, slept with it and it NEVER failed me and it hit what it was aimed at. That was the old pre A-1 with all the jamming problems by all the experts. Ugene Stoner said about the guns he saw jammed said "my god doesn't anyone clean guns anymore". Now 44 years later and hundreds of mods its only improved and got heavier.
I keep reading about the only dependable AR type is a AK type piston, does that mean we can run over it with a truck and it still operates (don't think so). If you run over a AR your gonna have a busted AR.
Now optics (oh hell no i'm not going to open that can of worms).
OK guys lite in to me.
 
I would just like to spread a little hate and discontent. I would like some other view points and mean no disrespect to anyone.
Do we as patriots really need everyone carrying 10-12 pound rifles made for sniping if insurection ever happens. Seems like too many chiefs and not enough braves?
A rock stock AR 15 with open sights and 16" or skinney barrel can get the job done out to 500 yds with the right twist. You can build or buy a perfectly good performer for $500-$600 again.
When I first used M16 in combat I cleaned it, oiled it, slept with it and it NEVER failed me and it hit what it was aimed at. That was the old pre A-1 with all the jamming problems by all the experts. Ugene Stoner said about the guns he saw jammed said "my god doesn't anyone clean guns anymore". Now 44 years later and hundreds of mods its only improved and got heavier.
I keep reading about the only dependable AR type is a AK type piston, does that mean we can run over it with a truck and it still operates (don't think so). If you run over a AR your gonna have a busted AR.
Now optics (oh hell no i'm not going to open that can of worms).
OK guys lite in to me.
Click to expand...

Just because you, as a well trained soldier, passionate about his rifle, were able to keep the early M16 reliable enough, doesn't mean that my neighbour, a school teacher, not into guns, would be able to keep it running if I'd have to give him one.
When it comes to arming civilians you need something that is ape simple to operate and maintain. You don't always have enough time to teach them how to maintain that rifle like a well trained, experienced professional.
That's why AK will always be better in this kind of scenario. Is simple and reliable enough that it works even if is not used and maintained by proffesionals. It gives that new guy, some room for error until he is able to do things right.
I'd take a quality AK over a lower end AR for this scenario any day.

About the optics. The new colimated gun sights (red dots) simplify the aiming process A LOT.
The civilian that is not trained shooter, that you may have to depend on, will always be better and faster with a red dot, than with irons.
 
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It is rare you see someone with a quality 10-15 lb precision rifle that doesn't own any other "tactical rifles."

I have mine because I enjoy long range target shooting and handloading for it. The fact that I can hit a man-sized target with it out to 1000yds is a bonus.

However, if ever the SHTF as the saying goes, it most certainly would not be my first choice for a "go-to" gun. I have plenty of autoloaders that better fit that bill.

I highly doubt the majority of precision rifle owners feel differently.
 
I've seen an M-4 run over by a HEMTT and the receiver was literally warped. Because of this the bolt would not cycle.
 
It ever comes to that,..and I sure as h-l4 hope it never does,...I'd suspect a lot of formerly well trained soldiers will use what they have at hand,...to take what they need. It's called a battlefield pickup folks. (You just need to survive the FIRST firefight,.....)

I tend to agree with Jaws though,....that most of us who have seen the elephant,..and are gun owners,..could maintain and care for a more sophisticated weapon in less than perfect circumstances. Joe Schmedlap down the street may not be so effective or efficient. It'll take time to teach him,..time you may not have. A simplified weapon would be more in order there.

Bottom line,..for me at least,..and a lot of folks I know,....I have mostly sporting arms,..but there's a couple there that can be pressed into doing double duty if the need ever came to it,...but I only expect to use mine for that first firefight,....and what I have will do.

One thing I always noticed. In a h-l4 all get dirty firefight,..there's always a lot of extra hardware and ammo laying around that the owners won't be needing anymore. Just my .02,...ymmv
 
Hate to state the obvious, but it would seem the current insurgent's weapons of choice are the AK, RPK, RPG, and of course, the IED.

Now, in a theoritical scenario in the states, who knows. But I'm sure IEDs would play a large role there too considering the prevalence of armor nowadays. Heck, weren't explosives a favorite tool of the resistance to German occupation all over Europe in WWII?
 
Hey I didn't mean that the AK wasn't a great tool and very tuff but in most interations it's heavy. Now I've got a sweet little AMD 65 thats light enough that I can carry my 870 in a scabbard on my back. I wasn't running down AK's at all.
BTW Military didn't teach me to clean my weapons my Grandpa did and I think this is something we can pass on to our neighbors and friends. The main problem in RVN was the Military was having AR shoved down their throat and didn't have cleaning gear available. I used a boot lace, And I've always run my AR's wet, right or wrong Iwam what I wham.
 
All I gotta ask is who the hell leaves there weapons laying about in the parking lot of the motor pool to get run over? I'm thinking if your holding it and it gets run over your pretty much gonna be screwed either way. I bet that thin metal the AR mags are made out of can't handle being run over not nearly as well as an AK mag.

From just handling a friends stock AR it seems a little more complicated to operate than an AK. It doesn't get much simpler than rock the mag in, shove the safety lever down, yank the bolt handle to the rear, let it fly, and start shooting.

As for tactical stuff on either I agree about a red dot making aiming easier for a total newbie. If your shooting 500 yards with open sights and making kill shots on the target then I personally praise you and your vision. If I had to shoot that far without a scope on pretty much anything I'd have to spray lead and hope I hit something. A foward grip always seems to make it more comfortable to me to shoot. The telescoping stocks allow you to adjust length of pull in seconds to fit any size shooter within reason. As far as weight over plain stock it did get a little more front heavy but overall it didn't gain very much weight at all. After a firefight is over did you ever complain about your rifle being to heavy or that you had carried to much ammo?

Keep it simple for the simple people, let the well practiced have the fancy gear.
 
If SHTF wouldnt you want to strike from a distance and get the hell out of there? You could easily pick off 2-3 soldiers from a distance 800-1000 yds. Get out. Then live to fight another day. Realistically i dont see up close and personal a first resort type of thing.
 
It is rare you see someone with a quality 10-15 lb precision rifle that doesn't own any other "tactical rifles."
I have mine because I enjoy long range target shooting and handloading for it. The fact that I can hit a man-sized target with it out to 1000yds is a bonus.
However, if ever the SHTF as the saying goes, it most certainly would not be my first choice for a "go-to" gun. I have plenty of autoloaders that better fit that bill.
I highly doubt the majority of precision rifle owners feel differently.
Click to expand...
Yep...I'll take one of each, and quite a few more. The first to leave the safe would probably be the Saiga-12, followed by the M1 Carbine and the M17S, and a whole lot else before the precision rifle comes out to play...but that doesn't mean I am getting rid of her either.

:)
 
Hell, as long as the patriot would carry a rifle for the cause of freedom I could care less what they had.

If they asked my advice I would give it but just happy to see them sharpening their skill with something.
 
If SHTF wouldnt you want to strike from a distance and get the hell out of there? You could easily pick off 2-3 soldiers from a distance 800-1000 yds. Get out. Then live to fight another day. Realistically i dont see up close and personal a first resort type of thing.
Click to expand...

First of all, you need to be able to hit something at that range...

Secondly, it ain't exactly SHTF if your targets are 800-1000 away. You certainly have the time and distance to skedaddle without engaging.
 
It is rare you see someone with a quality 10-15 lb precision rifle that doesn't own any other "tactical rifles."
Click to expand...

ditto. it took me a few years to get both but now i have a tricked out M4 clone and finally, a Yellow Pages rifle (sing along now, "reach out and touch someoooooooooone") which is a Rem 700 26" heavy barrel in a Choate stock with a crazy big scope and all the bells and whistles to get out to 1,000 yards.

on the other hand, i also have a Winchester .'94 30-30 that i absolutely love to shoot.

i can't really figure out what the OP's gripe really is. too many people have heavy, precision rifles? if, as in your post, an insurrection occurs, are you aware of the psychological a lone sniper can have? there would never be a politician in this country that would see the light of day. not a one would have the guts to peak outside knowing that there are millions of citizens out there with everything from '03A3 snipers to HK PSG-1's and every hunting rifle in the country gunning for them.

sure AR's and AK's have their place but if i'm going to attempt a 600 yard shot, i'm not going to waste ammo, which will likely not be in as high supply as we like, in my AR trying to walk my shots onto the target in hopes of a torso shot that may not kill and give away my position. i'm going to use one bullet, and let my mil dots do the walking.

shorter range skirmishes or somewhere where i need to fend off hordes of people that are trying to kill me, then fine, i'll grab the M4.

variety is the spice of life and it's kind of silly to chastise a bunch of fellow gun lovers for owning a certain type of rifle, don'tcha think?

Bobby
 
Hey Navyretired 1, I'm probably the same age as you and carried the M14 and M16 in Nam - 1968 for me. Both worked well but the 14 was too darn heavy. Have wanted an M16 all these years but never got around to it until lately. I did get an AK a few years back and it's a lot of fun but you have to wonder about owning the rifle that the enemy shot at you when you were a kid. One of my buddies won't even look at an AK or SKS.

When I got serious about building an AR I planned to go retro but as I got up to speed figured something shorter like the M4 was better. And it is, very happy with the new AR but bolted a carry handle on it for old times sake! No arguments here, I'll take the light rifle and carry more 5.56 ammo. Take care, old friend!
 
9 pounds for the vz-58 with full magazine and EOTech, is Ok by my standards. I need to LOSE about 3 times that amount from my gut, though, then it will feel light as a feather. :)
 
All I gotta ask is who the hell leaves there weapons laying about in the parking lot of the motor pool to get run over?
Click to expand...

Prepping for a night mission, lay out all your gear in a motor pool by your truck. Some other driver rides by without looking = smashed body armor and weapons.

Happens all the time.
 
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