Tactical rifles

[Tirod]

A lone shooter sniping doesn't have the impact of hundreds of armed with whatevers roaming the streets. And that sniper better be school trained in the survival skills necessary to get from one hide to another.

Once out on the street, he's no better off than one man against ten. And in his hide, criminal history shows he will be hunted down and eliminated - by the hundreds with urban combat carbines.

I agree with the OP, all the long range guns won't be the answer. Try hauling one around in a pickup while going to a food distribution site for your family. A carbine and handgun do that job better, proven daily by US soldiers.

Most situations will be up close and personal, at the front door, in built up neighborhoods, or urban centers. Frankly, where did all the snipers go during Katrina? Packed up and fled north by SUV. Those that stayed were using handguns. Showing off anything bigger just attracts predators.

Ten weeks into a real bad situation, where are all the AK shooters going to get ammo? It's all imported. The only stuff available will be 5.56. I'd rather be issued that for neighborhood defense than own a ammoless wallhanger - one likely to attract negative attention as a terrorist anti good guy weapon.

Moot point, most will trade their AK's in for food and water which will be tightly controlled. If you don't have certification as weapon free serfs of the handout government, no rations. At that point the NRA will not be your champion in Federal Court. There will be none.

No food, no water, no ammo. What you HAD to protect yourself won't matter.

 

[Uncle Mike]

Moot point, most will trade their AK's in for food and water which will be tightly controlled.

If the world decays to a zombie infested, SHTF scenario....folks will use their AK to TAKE food and water from the controleing zombies! lol hehehe

 

[navyretired 1]

Most (not all) people missed the point on the post. I'm just trying to point out that we are spending too much money chasing mods and toys for tactical use when even a 22 LR can be tactical if a tactical technician is pulling the trigger and hitting whats aimed at. Fancy rail items may make things easier but basic marksmanship is golden fleese. I greeve because our own product manufacturers keep those toys at crazy prices in every magazine every month.
As someone else said it has to be something to grab that you can find, buy or make ammo for or you've only got a fancy CLUB and that is serious CQC.
We who have been there and done that are probably worse than the posers as it is known what you need to servive.
Let me list my bail-out kit and back up hide with supplies.
1. DPMS lower built as M-forgery. 10, 20 round mags
2. Rem 870 with all the bells and whistles. 20 rounds #4 and 00 buck
3. 2 Browning high powers. one 9mm, 6 mags, one 22 LR conversion with 2 mags and a brick of standard velocity. puts meat in the pot quietly
4. medical kit with aspirin, Motrin, alcohol, tripleantibiotic oinment and various bandages tape and splints with heat and ice pacs.
5. One buck 210 folder and Gerber Mkll combat knife.

In my Storm shelter hideaway in middle of 148 wooded acres:
1. 30 days supply food water and vitimans.
2. mucho ammo and extra magazines
3. extra medical supplies and bug spray
4. nearby stabilized 50 gals gas.
5. bicycle (yeh laugh)
6. extra clothing
7. 3 lb's black pepper spread all around hide 300 meters
8. a comfortable matress and cot with bedding
9. method of cooking outside shelter. or pure cold camp.
10. you see that you just fill in blanks.
If you got that 148 acres with family, friends, rifle squad you would put in dozens of storm shelters with money we spend on Aim point, lasers, tactical lights and other items which are real nice but not necessary. Go together and buy an old backhoe and repair it to dig holes for shelters and you can put in a shelter for what a TACTICAL rifle costs or less.
I don't know how realistic this is but it's my plan when TSHTF.
BTW quentin knows what the bicycle is for ask him. 2 tours 66-67 left 6 months prior to Tet 68.
retired E-9, 28 years, 10 years broken service
Life member NRA since 79
Utah CCW
Brown water surviver

 

[Maverick223]

Moot point, most will trade their AK's in for food and water which will be tightly controlled.

"Those that hammer their guns into plows, will plow for those that do not." ~ Thomas Jefferson

 

[Quentin]

Gonna load up that bicycle and push it down the Ho Chi Minh Trail, Chief?

 

[navyretired 1]

Amen Quentin, you can push 10 times your own weight. ENCM(S/W, A/W, R/W) Merry Christmas and a Happy Free New Year

 

[Uncle Mike]

I'm just trying to point out that we are spending too much money chasing mods and toys for tactical use when even a 22 LR can be tactical if a tactical technician is pulling the trigger and hitting whats aimed at.

No kidding..... you do know, every piece of junk you hang on an AR, the likes you see on the military channel, or worse, manufactures, 'you gotta have this' ads, is worth another 10 bad guys....you didn't know this...?

Technology is the best thing ever, but it will NEVER take the place of accuracy, practice and plain ol' shooting smarts!

 

[Mp7]

at 1000yds it would be smarter to not make sound ... and let "them"
hunt someone else ....

at short range ... either bring lots of lead downrange ... or use a .22 and not be seen.

 

[Bobarino]

I'm just trying to point out that we are spending too much money chasing mods and toys for tactical use

uuhhh, no, "WE" are not spending too much money on anything. we are spending our money on exactly what we want. "WE" don't all want the same things as you. some of "we" want to spend lots and lots of money on mods and toys for tactical use. in your opinion, people spend too much on those things perhaps. not everyone is in the same boat as you.

let's face it, the odds of having to employ the bugout shelter, stash of ammo, and sniper rifle, and tactical doo-dadded M4 (all of which i have) in our lifetime are extremely slim. (which i realize)

instead of buying goodies with only survival and war in mind, i buy stuff that i'm going to enjoy and have fun with primarily, and can serve me in an emergency situation if it came to that secondarily. when Red Dawn comes, i'll still be plenty well equipped and prepared, but until then, i want to have some fun!

Bobby

 

[Maverick223]

...but until then, i want to have some fun!

...you mean you want to train. While it may not be as good as formal training...you are a better shot when you shoot, and if you enjoy shooting (with as many doodads as you desire) you shoot more. Therefore making you better prepared than someone that stockpiles the best rifles, ammo, and supplies, but doesn't get out and shoot (for whatever reason).

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Tactical enough for me. I can hit two targets (out to 150yds) in 5 seconds, reload two on the run, engage two more targets. Repeat. That's 8 hits if I do my job, and my weapon is never empty. A scout rifle has a solid constrruction, is most always 1MOA accurate (or better), is balanced and handles beautifully, and has a trigger better than ANY semi auto fighting rifle. When I learn to shoot a semi-auto that effectively, I'll be ready to replace the scout rifle. In the meantime, my scout rifle weighs less than 8.0 lbs with optic and sling. I can hump it all day. What does an M4 with optic weigh?

[/IMG]

 

[Maverick223]

Sharps, that isn't tactical: the bolt is on the wrong side (Lt handed), the sling backwards (African Carry), and the scope pushed forward (scout mount)...this is tactical (your name made me think of it...even though it isn't a Sharps):

Tacti-coolest rifle of the 19th Century.

 

[mljdeckard]

I am odd in that I have kind of conditioned myself to carry heavy rifles if necessary. I just don't really mind. I don't put them on scales, but I've carried rifles such as heavy-barrelled Remington 700s, AR-10s, M1As, etc with full optics, magazines, etc. I imagine some of them weighed north of 12 pounds. I suppose it's a question of what are going to do more with it, shoot it or carry it? If you are planning on carrying it a LOT and only shooting it once, (twice if you screw up the first time,) a featherweight 30-06 will be fine for you. If you would rather shoot it all day, but you don't plan on walking very far, a heavy-barrelled rifle might be better. Like I say, I'm fine with carrying it a lot AND shooting it a lot.

As for Walter Mitty snipers, yes and no. I had this conversation with my dad once, about what would happen if we were invaded by say, China, in a all-out Red Dawn scenario? Would you run for the hills? Would you stay in town and see how much damage you could do? We toyed with the idea of sniping targets of opportunity from the hills, he said it sounded like fun. I said; "Sure it's fun, until you really make them mad and the send a battalion of infantry into the hills to find and filet you alive and bring back your head on a stick."

But at the same time, there is merit in perpetuating and teaching long-range shooting to the next generation. I think this is something we have to maintain as part of the general RKBA. A hundred years ago, soldiers were trained to shoot 800 yards or more with open sights. Now it's considered a waste of time, since it's too difficult and those kinds of shots aren't made with conventional rifles anymore. Letting the skill fall off is one step closer to listening to those who say....."Who really NEEDS a rifle that can hit a softball at 1000 yards? These are MILITARY weapons and have no place in the hands of the law-abiding public." This is NOT without precedent. Both before and AFTER James Earl Ray's killing spree, anti-gunners were saying that scoped rifles were an assassination waiting to happen, and I don't know how we dodged the bullet AGAIN with the Kennedy assassination.

It's something I have STARTED to learn several times, but I always wind up running out of cash and selling my gear, and never putting the time required into it. I have made a decision that not only am I going to ONLY use evil black rifles for pretty much all of my hunting, I'm setting up an AR-10 for .308 and .243 with the correct mil-dot reticle for long-range shooting.

If you KNOW how to do it, you have the CHOICE whether or not to use it. If you DON'T know how, you don't have the choice.

 

[JEB]

saying that these fellow gun-owners have "too much" in the way of precision rifles seems a lot like saying that too many people are wearing hats; how can it be too many? what harm is being done?

if i had the money to sink into a super accurate long range gun, i would do it in a hartbeat. after all: shooting is fun...shooting accuratly is REAL fun!

 

[wishin]

Maverick223, that's a gorgeous gun!

Navyretired1, Sounds to me like you were in 'Nam too long!

Class of 67-68.

 

[Maverick223]

But at the same time, there is merit in perpetuating and teaching long-range shooting to the next generation. I think this is something we have to maintain as part of the general RKBA.

I agree, and will add that shooting can be a very enjoyable sport that should be shared, and I believe that we have the responsibility of teaching others to be rifleman because our country may very well desperately need marksmen in our defense (and we could use a few right now).

Maverick223, that's a gorgeous gun!

Thank you very much, sometimes I take it out just to stare at it...but it usually ends up getting shot afterwards.

 

[McBuck]

mljdeckard....FWIW...
I think you are referring to the Charles Whitman killing spree in Austin, Texas and not James Earl Ray. James Earl Ray was the assasin of Martin Luther King, not really a shooting spree. Charles Whitman was the sniper in the clock tower at the University of Texas, Austi, where he barricaded himself with several guns and began sniping at bystanders in the street. He was actually held at bay by civilians who got their deer rifles out of their cars and returned fire at Whitman, meanwhile Austin police climbed the tower to kill Whitman. The Austin police were also assisted by civilians during the ascent up the clock tower.

 

[mljdeckard]

That is something else to consider. I have wondered this before, and I took a language class with a SEAL who went to sniper school, and I spent some time in Africa with some marine snipers this summer. I asked them if the military really teaches this stuff, or do most shooters bring it with them from how they were raised?

The SEAL was a city boy who never shot a gun before he joined the navy, and he said that he had been through just about every weapon training on the planet before he went to sniper school. But he agreed that most of the guys who volunteer for the school are guys who had always wanted to go since they were kids, and had been shooting their whole lives.

The marines I was with were all backwoods rednecks who grew up shooting, and they all said they were probably pretty good 800 yard marksmen before they joined the military. The sniper school made them 1000 yard marksmen and taught them much better fieldcraft. I asked them if they thought the Marine Corps could train snipers if they weren't already enthusiastic shooters BEFORE they joined, and they said, maybe, but they would wash out a whoile lot more then they do now. Like, if they wash half the class now, it might be less than one in ten who could do it without previous experience.

Historically, throughout the 20th century, they screamed for snipers during the wars, and as soon as the war was over, they scrapped the idea. It was only after Vietnam that sniper schools were standardized and maintained during peacetime. Wouldn't it suck, if after a couple of generations of neglect, on one knew how to do this stuff anymore?

 

[mljdeckard]

McBuck, you are correct, sometimes I type faster than I think.

 

[McBuck]

That's cool man. Most times I don't even think.

 

[Casefull]

I have a AR's and long range stuff but My hk 91 and RRA 308 with 16 inch barrel are great. The RRA is much more accurate 3/4 in @ 100 yds, than the hk. It is about 8 lbs and recoil is not bad. With the 308 round you will not have to use multiple shots.

 

[Redneck with a 40]

If I ever have to face a situation like the Rodney King riots in L.A, I'll take my mini-14 with (5) 20 round magazines. This thing is light, handy, rugged, and effective out to 150 yards. Close up and personal, .223 is NASTY!

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Maverick223, you mean this? No matter how much I try, I can't get it to shoot more than one at a time.......................................

[/IMG]

 

[Maverick223]

Maverick223, you mean this? No matter how much I try, I can't get it to shoot more than one at a time...

Yep, I have the same pesky problem with mine...it will eject fine, but it fails to feed the next round when you cycle the lever. I just ordered the same front sight for mine (actually two because I found them on sale for $20.00USD ), how does yours work in conjunction with your tang sight (had to go receiver sight for mine)?

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

Use what works for you.