Tale of a S&W 32 Double Action

[Johnm1]

I was so intrigued by the 38 DA and the thought that the 32 DA was just a scaled down version of it I couldn't resist. Of course I'm cheap and don't want to spend the cost of one in good condition. And this one is no different. I'll almost certainly end up spending more than it is worth. But as my wife always tells me, sometimes it's the journey that is important. The auction was actually for two break top revolvers. This S&W 32 DA and a Meriden Double Action only (concealed hammer) Both were advertised as non-functional and missing parts. Right up my alley. I had no interest in the Meriden but the price was right. $68 plus $20 shipping for both. So here it is from the auction pictures:










There were no obvious parts missing from the S&W but the description clearly said they were missing parts and not functional. Significant finish issues. But that has never bothered me. What intrigued me was the size. And to say this thing is small is an understatement. Here it is in a picture with my 638 J Frame. It makes the J Frame look like an N Frame:



The 38 DA is a small pistol, and this is just that much smaller. Here is a picture with the 38 DA, 32 DA, and the 638:



I just love the size.

Moving on to what needs to be done, this is what I found on the S&W. The hammer was broken at the stirrup and the stirrup missing. All of the remaining parts were there though as received it wouldn't function. The mainspring had to be removed as without the stirrup it blocked the hammer from traveling all the way backwards. I found that the hook on the rear sear was below the hook on the cylinder stop. That is backwards and prevents the cylinder stop from operating correctly. Once that was corrected I was able to cycle the action using my thumb to replicate the mainspring tension on the hammer. And it functions correctly that way though the single action notch was damaged when the hammer/stirrup broke.

Ah, but Bubba isn't a new invention. It tuns out that someone replaced the rear sear spring with a home made contraption. I suppose it was done before Jack First started in business some 50 plus years ago. Because the rear sear spring is available from them as a new part. There will be a structural repair associated with Bubba's work. As cludgy as the Bubba repair was, it did function. In the diagram below the blue is the rear sear spring:



NOTE: I've reached the maximum number of photos in this post. I'll post what Bubba did in the next post.

So time to order parts. Jack First had all but the hammer/stirrup. I ordered a new rear sear spring and pin, and front sight. In reality JF sells the same rear sear spring for both the 32 and 38 DAs. I ordered the hammer from Popperts. Parts arrived yesterday and the hammer arrived today. Unfortunately neither Jack First or Popperts had a hammer stirrup. Here is a picture of the broken hammer in the 32 (bottom) and a functioning hammer/stirrup in the 38 DA (top):



I took a guess that the stirrup, as small as it is, was the same part as in the 38 DA and ordered one. Unfortunately, like every part in the 32/38/44 DAs, the parts are all proportionally sized for the caliber. So right now I'm stymied until I can find an appropriate 32 DA hammer stirrup. I have a 32 New Departure and a 32 Single Action. Both are made on the same frame as the 32 DA. So tomorrow I will take one of those out and see if they are compatible. That might make searching for a stirrup a little easier if I can expand the search to those other two models.

One thing I didn't notice in the auction pictures, though it was there, was a broken piece of the barrel rib at the front sight. This will be an interesting repair. Here is a picture of what I didn't see when I bought the revolver.




Think carving out a replacement piece of steel and silver soldering in place. Kind of like one would do for a missing piece of wood in a stock. Only in steel. That will happen after I get it functioning.

Oddly, this is a fourth model like the 38 DA, but the broken hammer that was in the gun and its replacement do not have a hammer fly. I guess both hammers could be from an earlier model.

I was hoping that the 38 stirrup would work and this one would probably be back in working order by now. But I'll have to be patient.

There are significant finish issues with this 32 DA. Some deep pitting included on top of the steel repair I have to make. This one for sure will get refinished. I plan to acquire one of the Caswell Nickel Plating systems this summer. I don't think I'll be destroying any collector value on this one.

 

[WestKentucky]

Rather than fix the barrel you could lip it off for that last 3/4 inch or so until the damage is gone. That would be easier to reinstall a front sight. BUT Gunbusters frequently has parts kits for these guns on Gunbroker and they sell for $20 and generally about $10 shipping. That gets you just about everything, including a whole replacement barrel and latch assembly.

 

[Johnm1]

Getting back to Bubba's work. I'll repeat what I started to say last night when I reached my limit on Photographs.

Ah, but Bubba isn't a new invention. It tuns out that someone replaced the rear sear spring with a home made contraption. I suppose it was done before Jack First started in business some 50 plus years ago. Because the rear sear spring is available from them as a new part. There will be a structural repair associated with Bubba's work. As cludgy as the Bubba repair was, it did function. In the diagram below the blue is the rear sear spring.



Bubba for some reason didn't have a rear sear spring. So here are the three parts Bubba installed instead of the correct Rear Sear Spring. Bubba drilled and tapped the front strap for the screw and made a spring in the generally correct shape and when it didn't provide enough spring force he added the round piece as a pivot point. The screw was screwed into the front strap from inside the grip frame underneath the grips. I'll have to fill that hole.



Oddly, this cludge of a work around did function. The correct rear sear spring is shown on the bottom of the above picture.

Today I'm going to investigate if the hammer stirrup in either my 32 Single Action or my 32 Safety Hammerless will work in this revolver. Jack First has a hammer stirrup for a Safety Hammerless in stock. So if I can get that to work my search for a hammer stirrup is done. If it turns out that the stirrup from the 32 Single Action works, at least I can expand my search for either a 32 DA or 32 SA stirrup. Jack First doesn't have a stirrup for a 32 Single Action.

Rather than fix the barrel you could lip it off for that last 3/4 inch or so until the damage is gone. That would be easier to reinstall a front sight. BUT Gunbusters frequently has parts kits for these guns on Gunbroker and they sell for $20 and generally about $10 shipping. That gets you just about everything, including a whole replacement barrel and latch assembly.

I can and have considered doing just that. One thing in favor of cutting the barrel is that the stamping along the top of the rib is, like the rest of the revolver, not in good shape. I despise cut barrels with partial stampings or stampings that are off center. But I could file/polish those stampings out, cut the barrel and re-crown. As anal as I am, I'd want to recreate the same front sight mounting and right now, I'm not set up to do that. Remember I'm a 'Tinkerer', not a gunsmith or machinist. It would all have to be hand work. I know, it would be easier to just install a post or bead, but I'm anal. This would also make this tiny revolver just that much smaller. But I'm not there yet. I have to get this revolver functioning correctly before I move on to anything related to appearance.

The replacement hammer seems to function well. Without the force of the mainspring I can't get the revolver to stay at the single action notch without being able to push it off. But until I have a functioning hammer I'm not ready to declare that it needs sear work. FYI - I don't have tools small enough to work on the sears in this revolver. I also don't have the skill to work on a sear. So Hopefully once the mainspring is in place it provides enough force to help keep the sear engaged on the single action notch.

 

[WestKentucky]

Jewelers files are cheap and do pretty good work on sear surfaces. The thing to keep in mind though is that the hardening on those parts is very thin and you can easily go too far and find soft metal. Not a huge issue for the most part as these guns are more novelty than carry piece, but over time the sear engagement surfaces wear when not hardened and you will eventually end up able to push off easily. BUT if a new hammer works then you need not do anything more than just clean the crud off of the parts and put it together. You don’t have a grip safety to contend with which isn’t a huge hurdle, but it is one more thing to be an issue on the new departures, so your lucky on this round.

 

[Johnm1]

Jewelers files are cheap and do pretty good work on sear surfaces. The thing to keep in mind though is that the hardening on those parts is very thin and you can easily go too far and find soft metal. Not a huge issue for the most part as these guns are more novelty than carry piece, but over time the sear engagement surfaces wear when not hardened and you will eventually end up able to push off easily. BUT if a new hammer works then you need not do anything more than just clean the crud off of the parts and put it together. You don’t have a grip safety to contend with which isn’t a huge hurdle, but it is one more thing to be an issue on the new departures, so your lucky on this round.

I've been meaning to acquire a set of Jewlers files. Something much smaller than the small/diamond files I have that I got from Harbour Freight. Maybe something like these though I haven't done much research on what I actually need/want.

Before that though I need to see the action fully assembled and under tension from the main spring. Even though the rear sear spring is responsible for providing the force to keep the rear sear in contact with the single cock notch, I'm not convinced, until I see it, that the entire system under full tension won't hold on the single cock notch.

I have confirmed that the hammer stirrup for the 32 Single Action will not work. At least it won't work without modification. There is a 'tail' on the end of the 32 SA stirrup that doesn't exist on the 32 DA stirrup. It is marginally smaller than the 38 DA stirrup that is too big. I'd have to modify the 32 SA stirrup to see if it would work and I'm not willing to do that on a piece that I don't have a replacement for. If I had a spare 32 SA stirrup I'd take the chance. the 32 SA is in great shape both function and finish wise. Next I'll see if the 32 New Departure stirrup will fit/work. I'm still putting the 32 SA back together. To install the hammer one has to pry the hand backwards while pulling the trigger and wiggling the hammer back on its stud. What I would give to have three hands.

 

[Johnm1]

Bad news and good news. Neiter the 32 SA or the Safety Hammerless stirrups will work. They both have a tail that would interfere with the single action notch. The good news is that my wife found a 32 DA hammer stirrup at Old Arms of Idaho. I swear I looked there before but I may have been looking for an entire hammer assembly. So shipping time and we should be back in action. Wish i had seen this earlier.

 

[WestKentucky]

I've been meaning to acquire a set of Jewlers files. Something much smaller than the small/diamond files I have that I got from Harbour Freight. Maybe something like these though I haven't done much research on what I actually need/want.

Before that though I need to see the action fully assembled and under tension from the main spring. Even though the rear sear spring is responsible for providing the force to keep the rear sear in contact with the single cock notch, I'm not convinced, until I see it, that the entire system under full tension won't hold on the single cock notch.

I have confirmed that the hammer stirrup for the 32 Single Action will not work. At least it won't work without modification. There is a 'tail' on the end of the 32 SA stirrup that doesn't exist on the 32 DA stirrup. It is marginally smaller than the 38 DA stirrup that is too big. I'd have to modify the 32 SA stirrup to see if it would work and I'm not willing to do that on a piece that I don't have a replacement for. If I had a spare 32 SA stirrup I'd take the chance. the 32 SA is in great shape both function and finish wise. Next I'll see if the 32 New Departure stirrup will fit/work. I'm still putting the 32 SA back together. To install the hammer one has to pry the hand backwards while pulling the trigger and wiggling the hammer back on its stud. What I would give to have three hands.

Makes a fella wonder what tools they had made at the factory so that they could put the guns together quickly and easily.

 

[Johnm1]

my wife found a 32 DA hammer stirrup at Old Arms of Idaho.

We will see what we get from Old Arms. Although they identified the part as a hammer stirrup for a 32 DA, the picture they had looked more like a stirrup for a Safety Hammerless. Here is what a 38 DA Hammer Stirrup looks like



Notice that the bottom of the stirrup, the part below the pin hole, is round. Below is the picture that Old Arms had for what they identified as a hammer stirrup for a 32 DA



Notice that there is a 'tail' on the bottom below the hole. The Old Arms picture looks like the stirrup in my 32 Safety Hammerless. But it is shorter than the 38 stirrup that I know is too tall. So if it comes in like the picture shows I'll have to fit the bottom of the stirrup to make it round. And then hope that the geometry still works for my 32 DA. Unlike the 32/38 DAs, the 32/38 Safety Hammerless use the mainspring/stirrup/hammer geometry to produce a rebounding hammer. So even if it fits it might not function like a 32 DA should. But for $14 it was worth a try. And if it adds the rebounding hammer function to the 32 DA all the better.

Unfortunately this puts me on hold on this revolver repair waiting on parts. I was hoping that with the parts I received this past Thursday/Friday I would have been able to assemble and test for full function. It's been 120 years plus, so I guess I can wait another week.

 

[Johnm1]

This never happens. There was a gun show here in Mesa today. Not one of the normal/major promoters. A small show in a hotel that has never had a gun show before. I've been a bit lame lately with a pinched sciatic nerve and not moving really well at the moment. But I've been cooped up long enough and decided I'd go. I had my wife drive me in case the pain got too bad. First look in the door and it was as feared. Mostly new stuff and junk. I don't need an AR-15 or the newest 9mm plastic wonder. I wanted to see old stuff, maybe some parts. It wasn't looking good. In reality I didn't expect to see any parts for the 32 DA but in the back of my mind I'm looking those and a 44 DA that I can afford.

I'm walking really slow and the walking makes it worse. So my wife volunteers to be my 'mobile scout'. Lo and behold she finds a 44 DA. Price isn't too bad @ $1,600 if it were completely functional. But alas it wasn't. It won't hold on the single cock notch and the half cock is missing. Hmm.... How much would a new hammer cost. I've seen them anywhere from $100 to $200. I got him down to $1,100 but I have to think about that one overnight. I suspect it will be there in the morning.

The real; surprise was at one of the last tables I looked at there was a top break mostly hidden behind a display card for another firearm. It was missing the cylinder and had pitting that could be measured with a wood ruler. But I asked to look at it. Another Lo and Behold it's a 32 DA, minus the cylinder and grips. But all of the other parts were present and functioning.



So inside this hulk is the stirrup that I need. All i have to do now is unlock/derust the screws and pins so I can get into it. Some other parts I'm likely to use are the mainspring, trigger guard, rear sear spring. The hammer may be useful as is but right now it won't hold on the single cock notch. Sound familiar? I'm not sure that is an assembly issue or if the single cock notch or rear sear is toast. I've got to get into it to find out.

So I'm not dead for this weekend waiting on parts. All I'm waiting on right now is for the penetrating oil to penetrate so I can remove the side plate and the strain screw to get to the parts I need/want. I'm sure all of the pins are rusted in place as well.

There's some serious cancer on this one. But for $40 it was a steal. I hope the inside parts held up better than the outside!

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

If you get that pitted barrel freed from the frame and if it’s not a total loss, and if you’re lucky and it’s a drop in fit thereafter ( hey, it’s not likely but I’ve done it), you could have a good candidate for a snub barrel to use without destroying yours.

 

[SterlingBullet]

Wouldn't it be great if some manufacturers would make small DA/SA revolvers again in .32 caliber as well as 22LR and 22WMR. They truly are pocket size.

 

[Johnm1]

If you get that pitted barrel freed from the frame and if it’s not a total loss, and if you’re lucky and it’s a drop in fit thereafter ( hey, it’s not likely but I’ve done it), you could have a good candidate for a snub barrel to use without destroying yours.

Brilliant minds think alike. The worst of the pitting is at the end of the donor barrel. The stampings on top of the barrel are illedgible. So filing fhem smooth doesn't bother me. The hinge works nicely so freeing the barrel wont be a problem. It would make a two barrel set.

 

[Johnm1]

Wouldn't it be great if some manufacturers would make small DA/SA revolvers again in .32 caliber as well as 22LR and 22WMR. They truly are pocket size.

It would. I'd like a revolver built for a new cartridge that was just as short as the 32 or 38 S&W but with modern smokeless ballistics pushing a 150-160 grain bullet at 900-1000 FPS out of a very small revolver. Like the size of the old Ladysmith or this 32 DA. I suppose it could be done with the smaller auto cartridges, but rimmed cartridges just seem to be right for a revolver.

 

[Johnm1]

I'm going to let this new Donor revolver soak overnight but I suspect I still won't be able to budge either the strain screw or the side plate screw. I put the two screws through at least a dozen heat cycles including penetrating oil. It's been in the sonic cleaner with ATF/Alcohol and heat for about an hour and I still can't budge the screws.

After soaking tonight I'll give it one more try in the morning and then I think I'll go nuclear and drill/easy out the side plate screw. I think I'll just cut the strain screw to release the mainspring. The pins will be another story I'm sure.

 

[usaral63]

As a suggestion, before you drill get all the oil off the piece you can and try a lengthy hot water immersion.....might take a couple of days.....but I have had it work wherein all the penetrating oils failed....might start out with the old plumbers trick of first tightening pressure then the reverse.
Good luck with it, looks like the sorta stuff I get stuck with!!

 

[Blue68f100]

Try using a impact screwdriver to remove the screws. These impact drivers are widely used on motorcycles, they work great.

 

[Johnm1]

Well I solved the issue before I read the last two suggestions. And it was a nuclear solution. Basically I sacrificed the side plate on the donor gun. Not reallt a loss. As much pitting as was on it I'd have had to reduce the surface so much it would have been a terrible fit. So I milled it out. Remember I'm not a gunsmith or machinist and don't have a milling machine. The term/oxymoron 'Hand Machine'was in play here.

But it is together and now functions in double action with the new hammer/stirrup. It does not hold on the single cock notch nor at half cock. This could be a function of the rear sear spring not being fitted properly. It'll take some work/research to figure it out. But I'll get there. Here is a short video of it in double action.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/WTMybbN3Bmjq3AbX8

I hope that link works.

 

[usaral63]

Good show!! If it works it ain't dumb !!

 

[Johnm1]

Well I'm at an impasse. The donor gun came with a mainspring so I now have two. Unfortunately neither functions properly. I don't know if they are just old or somehow lost their temper. I will order a new one from Jack First tomorrow. As it is, the back of the hammer makes contact with the mainspring before reaching the single cock notch. Here is a short video of the problem.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/9rorSr1R8YKf5V6y9 [photos.app.goo.gl]

Again, I hope the link works. Notice that I can try to pull the hammer back further but the mainspring will begin to unseat from the stirrup. Both mainsprings were 'weak' compared to the 38 DA. I tried moving where the mainspring seats in the frame by seating it 'higher' up in the notch in the frame. But that made it worse. There really is only one location in the frame that the mainspring should seat. If I compare the 32 DA mainspring/stirrup at rest to the 38 DA, the 32 is definitely in a different orientation. I think a new spring will solve the issue though. Odd that both guns came with a mainspring and both have the same problem. They are both the same shape/size in comparison to each other. Here are some photographs of the mainspring:

This is at rest and the stirrup should be 'more' vertical








I won't be able to diagnose the issue of not staying in the single cock notch until I have a working mainspring. That'll take a couple of days. The single cock notch looks OK to my eye so I'm assuming the issue is with the rear sear spring. Note that Jack First sells a 38 DA rear sear spring for use in the 32 DA. But I have to believe that the two are slightly different. The good part is that the donor gun came with another rear sear spring. But I'll get to that problem after I get the mainspring issue resolved.

And I did buy the big brother today. 44 DA in 44 Russian:



It has a few problems. But I'll get into those in a new thread. Tale of a S&W 44 DA I guess.

 

[Johnm1]

Note that Jack First sells a 38 DA rear sear spring for use in the 32 DA. But I have to believe that the two are slightly different.

I need to correct that statement. Jack first does sell a rear sear spring for the 32 Double Action. I missed it previously and what is in the gun is for a 38 DA. Fortunately the donor gun has one. Ill install that one tonight.

 

[Johnm1]

Fortunately the donor gun has one. Ill install that one tonight.

I should have installed the 32 rear sear spring from the donor gun before ordering yesterday. It doesn't have the needed spring force to solidly hold the single cock notch. So another order tonight. I can temporarily/manually increase the spring force and the rear sear will hold the single cock notch. So I'm confident a new one will resolve the issue of push off.

The new mainspring is already on the way. And I feel even more confident that it will resolve the bind with the back of the hammer. Below is a picture of the larger 38 DA mainspring that functions perfectly compared to the 32 mainspring I possess. The straight spring is the 38 that functions correctly and the curved spring is from the 32 that doesn't function properly. Oddly both 32 mainsprings I have are curved like that. Go figure.

 

[Johnm1]

I'll have to be patient again. The new mainspring failed immediately after installation. It either wasn't hardendd right or tempered incorrectly. I'm not one to complain. Things happen. More importantly is how a vendor responds to an issue. In this case they had a replacement shipped about an hour after they got my e mail.

Baby steps. But this will work. I'm sure of that.

 

[Johnm1]

The replacement mainspring came in this afternoon and it did what I expected it to do. The new spring no longer conflicts with the hammer reaching the single cock notch. Here is a short video of the action functioning:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/FxxNeMqbteB5nuFn9

I still have some work to do. I used a mix of new and old parts both from the existing revolver and the donor revolver and I'll have to tune the action to get the 3 clicks that should be apparent but are only muted right now. Although the revolver does hold on the single cock notch, it can still be pushed off. So I will have to re-cut the single cock notch. I tried putting as much spring pressure on the rear sear (that controls the single cock position) and used the best hammer and rear sear. But no amount of spring pressure is going to make the single cock reliable. In all of my 'Tinkering' I have managed to avoid working on an actual sear. The single cock notch is only a couple of thousandths wide and at an angle less than 90°. The half cock notch also needs some work. It is worn and right now it doesn't hold the hammer back far enough to release the cylinder stop though it does retract tha hammer. In all reality the half cockfunctions and functions safely. It just isn't 'right'. A bit more of my OCD at work here.

Also, I need to repair the barrel rib at the front sight.

I need to take the time to thank the people over at Jack First. She got out the replacement mainspring less than an hour after she got my e-mail and instead of arriving next week it arrived today. I said it before, problems happen. It is the response to a problem that determines what kind of a business you are.

 

[Johnm1]

In all of my 'Tinkering' I have managed to avoid working on an actual sear. The single cock notch is only a couple of thousandths wide and at an angle less than 90°. The half cock notch also needs some work.

Here were my choices for hammers. I chose the top one mostly because of the shape of the half cock notch, but the single cock notch seemed to be a better shape.



Blow up



Neither one was perfect but I also didn't expect to find a perfect one on line. Although Jack First does make many of the parts for this particular revolver, they don't make a hammer. So the chances of getting a worn hammer was pretty high. Maybe that was a bad decision.

The single cock notch is the smallest notch on the bottom of the hammers. I'll get a measurement sometime today, but I bet it measures in the single digit thousandths. And the angle is less than 90°. What tool does one use to form that small of an edge? The files I own are all too large by an order of magnitude probably close to 5!

As I see it, the half cock notch needs material added to the face so the hammer is held back further. But I'm spit balling here.

 

[Johnm1]

Although the revolver does hold on the single cock notch, it can still be pushed off. So I will have to re-cut the single cock notch

I'm glad I don't move fast based on conclusions I come up with. Because I may not need to recut the single cock notch. I reassembled the revolver again tonight after cleaning off some built up crud. After reassembling all but the mainspring, the hammer holds on the single cock notch. And I don't know why it won't hold with the mainspring installed and tensioned.

At single cock w/mainspring installed and tensioned. A feather would push it off

At half cock w/o mainspring. I can't push it off no matter how hard I push

Here is the 38 DA at half cock mmainspring installed. It functions perfectly and can't be pushed off. The only thing I notice different is the stirrup is more upright on the 38 DA.


What am I missing?