Taught two foreigners to shoot (including a reporter)

[learn2shoot]

Last Tuesday while waiting in line outside SCOTUS to hear some oral arguments I was approached by a Dutch reporter who had some questions. I spoke with her for a while about the ban, about guns in America and about shooting. She admitted that she had never shot before so I offered to teach her. She moved onto the next person without seeming too interested.

Last week I got an e-mail and she wants to take me up on her offer, we arrange to meet last night, and asked if she could bring a friend and I agreeed.

We met at the metro station and I drove us all to the NRA HQ range. I asked both if they had ever fired a gun before and she had not, and he had fired a bow once in high school We went over the fundamentals of safety and marksmanship and put up targets at 10'. He (the friend) fired the .22 and missed the 11" x 17" paper on the first shot, we went over the fundamentals again and he was able to keep it on the paper.

Now was her (the original reporter) turn to shoot and same setup with a .22 (except due to the noise she had plugs and muffs), she was able to hit 3/5 times a quarter sized dot at 10'!!! She fired about 15 shots and was done, I did not want to pressure her too much beyond that she she sat down.

While teaching her, he found a new friend (a guy I already knew) and was shooting 9mm .357 .38 special an AR-15 and a bunch of .22... and wanted to see what else was available to shoot from other people who were there.

If she was not returning to the Netherlands in a few weeks might become a shooter, but at least walked away with a "that was not so bad, it didn't hurt my hand, and it was fun" feeling. HE IS DEFINATELY HOOKED

 

[Pat-inCO]

Sounds like a positive experience for all. Can't get any better.

 

[lanternlad1]

Good idea to start with a .22 pistol. Those are the most fun to shoot IMO, and no big scary BANG for those who aren't ready for it.

 

[mnw42]

I had a group of Brits come through on holiday this past summer. The one guy has lived here for a few years and his sister and brother in law were visiting from England. They had brought a Dawoo (spelling?) that refused to function so I lent them my Ruger Mk1 and let them shoot my M1 carbine. They had a blast!

 

[Eroc]

You are a true diplomat

 

[highorder]

Last July I took a Dutchman and an Englishman to the S&W Academy in Springfield.

They had never touched a firearm before. They both had a blast and left having shot (in this order) a Model 10, M&P 45, SW1911, Model 29, and a Model 41.

They both bought M&P T-shirts to take home with them.

 

[41magsnub]

That's awesome. Last year I was going to teach a Moroccan buddy of mine to shoot since he said he was not very good. Turns out we have different definitions of good... his dad is some high mucky muck in the Moroccan secret service and has had him shooting since he was 4. Made me look bad with my own guns!

 

[Diamondback6]

learn2shoot, she sounds like someone you might wanna keep in touch with. Who knows what could happen?

 

[Beagle-zebub]

That's awesome. Last year I was going to teach a Moroccan buddy of mine to shoot since he said he was not very good. Turns out we have different definitions of good... his dad is some high mucky muck in the Moroccan secret service and has had him shooting since he was 4. Made me look bad with my own guns!

ROFL! I hate it when that happens.

 

[Wes Janson]

My paranoia meter might have been hitting a bit higher on that one. It's technically a federal felony, IIRC, for a nonimmigrant alien to be in possession of a firearm or ammunition of any type, unless they fall under one of the few rare exceptions (diplomats, police, competitors, etc). Normally perhaps not such a big issue...but standing in line in front of the Supreme Court? I really wouldn't have risked that one...

 

[springmom]

Well done!!!!!! This is how we make fence-sitters into friends of RKBA. Maybe she'll become a shooter, maybe not; but she had a positive, fun experience and learned what shooters are like. Awesome.

Springmom

 

[Trebor]

Well done!

One of my best students was a guy from England who I met here on THR.

He wanted to learn to shot and wanted strictly one-on-one instruction since he'd lost his left hand in an accident a few years earlier.

He flew into the states, I found a hotel for him, and we spent five days on the range.

He did fantastic and moved along much quicker then I anticipated. He shot in a IDPA style shoot at the end of the week and impressed the other shooters.

Too bad he had to go back to England. No handgun for him there.

 

[scrat]

Well done indeed. If you ever hear from them again let us know. it would be really cool if she did a report on that

 

[Oleg Volk]

Supervised range shooting does not equal possession.

 

[Tyris]

My paranoia meter might have been hitting a bit higher on that one. It's technically a federal felony, IIRC, for a nonimmigrant alien to be in possession of a firearm or ammunition of any type, unless they fall under one of the few rare exceptions (diplomats, police, competitors, etc). Normally perhaps not such a big issue...but standing in line in front of the Supreme Court? I really wouldn't have risked that one...

hahah. This explains why there are ton of shops that rent guns to Japanese tourists in Hawaii. Remember, these guys are just shooting the gun, not buying it.

If you're still paranoid, I challenge you - please cite the exact law in US Federal Code you're referring to.

-T

 

[Titan6]

Excellent.

 

[Eyesac]

nice job!

 

[Wes Janson]

Supervised range shooting does not equal possession.

hahah. This explains why there are ton of shops that rent guns to Japanese tourists in Hawaii. Remember, these guys are just shooting the gun, not buying it.

If you're still paranoid, I challenge you - please cite the exact law in US Federal Code you're referring to.

ATF would beg to differ with you.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/rules/foreign.htm

A foreign citizen who is in the United States in a nonimmigrant alien status is prohibited from purchasing ammunition unless he or she qualifies under one of the exceptions contained in the Gun Control Act (see 18 U. S. C. § 922( y)( 2)), or has obtained a waiver from the Attorney General as set forth in the law (see 18 U. S. C. § 922(y)(3)).

The nonimmigrant alien prohibition applies to any alien in the United States in a nonimmigrant status, whether or not that alien was required to obtain a visa to enter the United States. Some examples of nonimmigrant aliens are persons travelling temporarily in the United States for business or pleasure, persons studying in the United States who maintain a residence abroad, and temporary foreign workers.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/rules/061600fflltr.htm

In an open letter, dated November 18, 1998, we notified you that a recent amendment to the Federal firearms laws prohibited the transfer to and possession of firearms and ammunition by aliens admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa. This letter provides some additional guidance about this amendment and how it affects your conduct of business.

The amendment applies to any alien in the United States in a nonimmigrant status, whether or not that alien was required to obtain a visa to enter the United States. Some examples of aliens in a nonimmigrant status are persons travelling temporarily in the United States for business or pleasure, persons studying in the United States who maintain a residence abroad, and temporary foreign workers. Permanent resident aliens are not subject to this new prohibition.

There are exceptions to this new prohibition. One such exception – the exception you will most likely encounter – is for a nonimmigrant alien holding a hunting license or permit lawfully issued in the United States. The other exceptions may be found in Section 922(y)(2) of the Gun Control Act of 1968, as amended. (Section 922(y)(2) is on page 15 of ATF's Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide - ATF P 5300.4, January 2000.)

Most tellingly is the following answer found in the FAQ section of the ATF's website at http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#r1

(R33) I'm a nonimmigrant alien who is coming to the United States for two weeks to go hunting. Can I rent a firearm in the United States to use on this trip? What if I want to go to a shooting range one day - can I rent a firearm there as well?

As long as you possess a valid hunting license from a State within the United States, you may rent firearms to hunt and to use at a shooting range. If you do not have the hunting license, your possession of the firearms and ammunition will be unlawful. The hunting license does NOT have to be from the State where you will be possessing the guns and ammunition.

If they've got a hunting permit, everything is hunky-dory, but without it the law seems to make it pretty clear that a nonimmigrant alien can't really shoot a firearm in this country. Buying ammo is most definitely out of the question without a permit. The issue of loaning a weapon is really going to hinge around the definition of possession, and ATF seems to feel that temporary possession equals possession judging by their ruling that renting a firearm entitles taking possession of it. IANAL and all that, but their treatment of the issue seems pretty well cut-and-dried. Not a law that very many people know about, and most certainly one that isn't likely to be applied in most casual cases, but when you start to involve random people on the street, and the Supreme Court...my paranoia level definitely goes up a few notches.

Bottom line is, unless they're a diplomat/police/competitor/have a valid hunting permit, foreign tourists basically can't go shooting.

 

[Coastie2010]

Temporary posession while hunting would imply that they removed it from the room where it was being stored/displayed/demonstrated, took it into the field, stalked whatever game they were seeking, possibly were unsupervised while doing so, and may have continued "posessing" it for the entire hunting trip, which may span a few days.


Shooting at the range, with the owner literally right next to them, would seem to be something different entirely.

 

[Wes Janson]

As long as you possess a valid hunting license from a State within the United States, you may rent firearms to hunt and to use at a shooting range. If you do not have the hunting license, your possession of the firearms and ammunition will be unlawful.

It does not seem limited to just hunting; range rentals fall under the same law according to the ATF's website.

 

[Wes Janson]

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/apr/03/na-jury-convicts-usf-grad-in-firearm-case/

Holding a rifle at a shooting range for 2 1/2 minutes may bring more than two years in prison for a former University of South Florida student.

Karim Moussaoui was two days away from earning three computer engineering degrees and was preparing to work at his family's business in Casablanca when he was arrested Dec. 13 on a federal weapons charge of possessing a firearm in violation of his student visa.

Moussaoui testified he had no idea his actions were illegal. But ignorance of the law is not a recognized defense, and his attorney was not allowed to argue it.

Athan, the defense attorney, also tried to argue that Moussaoui did not possess the weapon in the legal sense because he could not have removed it from the premises and because he wasn't the one who rented it. The defense's efforts to make this argument to the jury were restricted by Whittemore.

Athan asked the judge to instruct jurors that they could consider a defense of "temporary transitory possession" or "temporary innocent possession." Whittemore rejected that request, citing appeals court rulings that placed that argument out of reach.