Taurus 4510 THE JUDGE & Griz protection

[Vonster]

Just bought this gun and looking for advice on loads.
It can shoot a 410 shotgun or shot and also a .45.
I bought this gun because I thought it would be a good gun to have while rifle hunting in Montana. Can shoot Grouse with it while at the same time it may serve as protection.
In the back of my mind it also may serve as protection against grizzlies. Hopefully never having to use it. But if last resort and the bear is attacking I would certainly try to defend.
What would be the most powerful load to use in case of self defense against a grizzly? Would a 410 slug pack more gusto than a .45 cowboy load?
Is there any other load or grain recommended for more impact that i could use in this gun? I know there are more powerful revolvers out there however this is what I own.
Thanks

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

I don't know about the .410 v .45 colt... but .45 colt will give you similar performace to the .45acp which is NOT a good idea to use against a grizzly. If you want to use .45 colt for defense against dangerous game get a Ruger Blackhawk or Thompson and load them up to .44mag standard. Unless you want to kaboom your firearm, do not load .45 colt that hot in anything else.

 

[Cosmoline]

If you could load a .410 with a hardcast slug and crank up the pressure it might be marginally OK for bear protection in a pinch. If the Judge is rated for cranked up .45 Colts those are a better way to go.

Frankly I think the .410 aspect of revolver is far more marginal against GROUSE. It has a wee tiny barrel and rifilng, so I can't imagine the shot spread will be good for more than a snake at a few paces. Try some different loads and see what kind of spreads and groups you get out beyond 10 yards. You're better off shooting the grouse with a cowboy load .45 Colt lead RN. I don't think the round will expand much given the small size of the animal. It should be enough for shooting them on the ground at least, assuming that's legal there.

 

[19-3Ben]

Vonny- I think you may be overestimating the capabilities of that gun. It's a great range toy, and would be good for snakes.
.45 LC could be good, but it's still pretty marginal for Griz. Black bears ok, Griz...ouch.
I'll second Cosmo on his point about it being marginal for grouse.

 

[jfh]

IMO, the Judge is insufficient for defense from a grizzly, period. Until the issue is sooooo close you don't want to be there--and you won't want to be there if it isn't sufficient. At a minimum, I think I would want a .44 Mag.

Look at the big revolvers--the S&W bear kits, for example.

Jim H.

 

[paul105]

Remington's .410 slugs run 1/5 oz or about 86 grains and made of soft lead -- certainly not for griz. Montana mountain grouse are not particularly spooky -- you can generally get quite close -- 10 of 15 feet.

As far as .45 colt loads go, contact Buffalo Bore Ammo http://www.buffalobore.com/ , Grizzly Cartrige http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/ , and Double Tap Ammo http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.phpto get their recomendation (I'm sure there are others). Don't just order something from their website, make sure you contact them and tell them what gun you have and what you plan on using it for.

Your rifle would be first line of defense against unlikley grizz attack. Handgun would probably be last resort, stick it in their ear/mouth situation while you were fighting for your life. Grizzlies are very impressive critters.

FWIW,

Paul

 

[MCgunner]

I swear, this "Judge" gimick is going to get someone killed. It cannot handle the hot .45 colt loads that Rugers handle without a kaboom, it is likely too inaccurate anyway with .45 due to excessive freebore. It is NO SHOTGUN!!!!! LISTEN UP, PEOPLE, THIS THINK IS BARELY SUFFICIENT TO KILL A SNAKE AT TEN FEET. FORGET BIRDS AT 10 YARDS OR MORE!!!!! BUY A REAL SHOTGUN IF YOU WANNA TAKE GAME AND DEFEND YOURSELF FROM BEARS!!!! <sigh> And get that shotgun in a real gauge, 20 minimum, but in griz country, nothing less than 12 gauge. A shotgun will see you though. The judge might made a decent fishing weight. It is NO outdoor gun and I can pack my much more effective .45 Colt blackhawk a lot easier, actually, if portability is your angle. If you just HAVE to have a .45 Colt/.410, get a Contender with 10" barrel. It will handle Ruger loads and is actually effective to about 20 yards on birds and small game with the choke installed. I know, I have one. It's not terribly accurate, but I could take a deer with it to 50 yards. It'll shoot about 4-6" groups at 50 and puts up over 1000 ft lbs with a hot load that would blow up a Judge. Hot buffalo bore loads in the Judge would be a bigger danger to you than a bear. Shrapnel from an exploding handgun not designed to take such excessive pressures could hurt.

Hey, I like Taurus, but even Taurus isn't marketing this thing for outdoor survival, it's a home defense option or car gun.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

it is likely too inaccurate anyway with .45 due to excessive freebore.

Actually, they are surprisingly accurate with the .45 Colt. I also have no doubt it would do substantial damage to snake a 10 feet.

But as 19-3 Ben said, it's not a good choice for most serious uses. Your best bet is to get a decent, non-cowboy, non-+P 45LC if you want to use it for protection and see if you can find one that groups decently out of it.

 

[Bezoar]

If you want to use a .45 colt for serious critter defense, do yourself and your family a favor and get at least an SAA clone say a Taurus Gaucho if you really love taurus. Load it up with standard 225-250 grain hardcast bullets to 900 fps minimum, i read the gaucho can handle to 1000fps.

Or depending on what your rifle game is, get a 30-06 or 308 and you wont need the backup pistol as that rifle will have far more power then even a 44 mag revolver.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, it's pretty ammusing all the people that think they can go duck hunting with this thing. It is NOT a hunting type shotgun. It will throw a pattern at 10 feet what a real shotgun will toss at 40 yards. It is ment for close range defense using 000 buck in a home or from a car. Forget bird hunting. Hell, if I can get 10 feet from something, frankly, I can take a snakes head off from farther than that with a bullet, have done it many times. Snakes ain't a big deal anyway, but if a griz is attacking me, I'd rather have a 10 lb sledge than a Judge. Oh, I guess it'd be better than nothing, but I sure as hell ain't sellin' my Blackhawk for one!

 

[roscoe]

If you want to use a .45 colt for serious critter defense, do yourself and your family a favor and get at least an SAA clone say a Taurus Gaucho if you really love taurus. Load it up with standard 225-250 grain hardcast bullets to 900 fps minimum, i read the gaucho can handle to 1000fps.

Or, get a Ruger Blackhawk, which can handle the 335 grain hardcast loads at 1350 fps. The Judge can in no way handle those loads, which means it is not appropriate for bear defense. Unless you can find a used .45 Redhawk, the Blackhawk is the only game in town for .45 caliber bear defense. In 44mag, obviously, there is a wide range.

The Judge is a gimmick.

 

[Diggers]

Humm, not really a bear defense gun. Sorry.

The .410 slug is often questioned as enough for deer…..and that is out of a long barrel shotgun, forget bear, that slug would probably just bounce off a grizz.

http://www.gunblast.com/Taurus-UltraLiteJudge.htm

In that link look at the target shot with buck shot. The wood the target is on shows almost NO damage. Not a very good sign. Barrel is too short to generate FPS it seems.

Get a .44 or up and load it with something that is made to penetrate.

 

[Stainz]

I had a fortunate twist this past summer. I had the moola - wanted something different - went to the local pusher's lair - in time to see 'my' 3" SS Judger, $409 + s/t, being carried towards the register. Several days later, I had my 625MG and some homebrew 250 gr LRNFP/5.7gr Titegroup with WLP to 'evaluate' the primers (It is softly sprung - and Fed LP primers are impossible to locate around here!). There, a day-shooter presented with a new 3" 'Judge'. We swapped for a cylinder. I had 3 Magtech cowboy loads and two 2.5" #6 .410s. I was happy to get my 625MG back... and, he was happy to have his Judge - go figure.

We were at the 12-15yd pistol range. I never hit a rebounding steel plate - or even the stand - with the .45 Colts. It seemed to make a one foot diameter circle around said steel plates. The funky rubber 'Gripper' grip was not to my liking - the flimsy feeling wasn't to my liking at all - my Dymondwood Combats on the MG were better - and my other similar MG with it's square conversion Ahrends cocobolo stocks is even better. The 'Gripper' must be an acquired taste.

The two chambers with the 2.5" #6 .410s were next. Such a small sampling can't give quantitative feedback - but qualitatively, it was sufficient. At a reversed, just white paper, large bg silhouette target at 12 yd, the results left holes 6"-10" apart and in a swirl galaxy-like pattern. Shot at that distance, a family of snakes would suffer few losses. The second hot repeated those results. No doubt, at 1-3 yd, it would be great protection, against snakes - and foraging ferrets. Impressive shooting across the passenger seat at a silhouette target, according to the video tapes. I was lucky the one I 'wanted' was sold that day. YMMV.

Stainz

PS If you can't afford a S&W .45 Colt 625MG - with some 255gr LSWC and some 250gr Speer Gold Dots - load them into a more affordable 3"-4" Taurus .45 Colt Tracker - you'll be better off. Yeah, they are alluring...

 

[Marshall]

You might give him a headache or something. Carry some Advil to offer him just in case, that way he might let you have a head start before he eats you.

Seriously, think Magnum.

 

[MCgunner]

PS If you can't afford a S&W .45 Colt 625MG - with some 255gr LSWC and some 250gr Speer Gold Dots - load them into a more affordable 3"-4" Taurus .45 Colt Tracker - you'll be better off. Yeah, they are alluring...

No thanks, I'll keep my Blackhawk. I don't even load it THAT hot and get 1000 ft lbs out of a 300 grain bullet. And, like your MG, the thing hits what I aim at. Hand loaded, the .41 will do about anything the .44 will do, though if I were walkin' in griz country, I think I'd prefer the .44. But, then, I have my Blackhawk.

I like the tracker stuff, but I'd get it in .41 or .44 so I could shoot hotter stuff. I'd like a .41, actually, have this fascination with the .41 that I've never satiated.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Sometime back I did some backyard testing with a 7 inch TC 410/45LC barrel.
The tests were less than impressive.

For instance.
Would you consider that any gun that could be seriously called a defense gun should put a bullet through a 2 inch board or 1 inch plywood?

Even with a 7 inch barrel the DEEPEST that 5 pellet 00 S&B buckshot would penetrate a 2 inch board is 1 inch (measured to the front of the pellet). Most pellets only penetrated 3/4 inch and about half continuously missed the 2x6 boards.
No 00 buckshot would go through the 1 inch plywood.
And this is with a 7 inch barrel.

Another problem with the short barrel 410 guns is the bird shot velocity is so slow the shot will bounce back at you.

410 Shotgun shells are loaded for use in a long barrel, not one a couple inches in length.
I understand Bond Arms Derringer company loads a 410 buckshot shell for their Derringers.


I have to agree with MCgunner.

I swear, this "Judge" gimick is going to get someone killed.

 

[Kimber1911_06238]

If I wanted griz protection, it wouldn't come from "the judge". The grizzly will judge you as an idiot and eat you

 

[monkeyjump]

judge public defender

jumping in late on this but I have a new judge public defender, and I have been shooting 335 grain colt rounds with no problem. taurus says no +p rounds, the 335 grains I am shooting are not marked as +p on the box and the store I bought them from says it shouldnt be a problem. I have put about 25 rounds through the gun. I live in alaska and use it as a side arm when I am deer hunting. with the 335 grain and my .300 winchester I feel pretty safe

 

[FoMoGo]

What brand are those 335 gr loads?
I know that Corbon has a 335 gr load for hunting... and its +p.


Jim

 

[monkeyjump]

this is an alaskan company called alaskan backpacker ammo. they have no contact info on the box and I have made a few calls to other ammo stores just to be sure they are not +p. is it possible to have 335 grain and not be +P? either way it packs a pretty hefty wallop.
I have actually put close to 50 rounds through the gun and no problems. wont be shooting it much anyway as I will be carrying it as bear protection while hunting. just shot a couple boxes of ammo to get a feel for the gun.

 

[Buck Snort]

Serious griz defense is a .375 H&H, 416 Rigby or 10 ga. shotgun with slugs. In handguns, you probably are not going to quickly stop a mad griz that is determined to get you. However, the 500 S&W (350 gr. UCSP @ 1700 fps), 460 S&W (300gr. GDHP @ 1800 fps), 475 Linebaugh (400 gr. GDSP @ 1300 fps), and the 454Casull (300 gr. GDHP @ 1600 fps) are your best bets. They launch big, heavy slugs that penetrate like crazy.

 

[Nushif]

Anything short of a massive rifle to me seems inadequate for Grizzly defense.

That being said I did get to shoot a judge yesterday ... and it was hilariously funny. Great toy or very personal defense gun, but a serious shooter? Maybe not.
I still want one, of course.

 

[monkeyjump]

Im quite pleased with the public defender. its small and light and just what I was looking for to carry when I hunt. my hunting rifle is plenty big for bear, the side arm is just in case close range quick draw protection if I cant get my rifle off my shoulder fast enough. and i got it for less than $500. I've chased away more than one gizzly with a rock and some profanity, 45 colt 335 grain at close range is powerfull enough, provided you get a clean shot in the vitals. hard to do with any gun when a bear is charging.

 

[oldgoat46]

Taurus Judge

The Taurus Judge is a novelty at best. 45 LC can be loaded up or bought from Buffalo Bore in a 325 grain that barks along at 1350 fps. I carry my Ruger Redhawk 45 LC 4" in a chest holster when fishing in bear country. I have a Taurus Judge with a 6" (I think) barrel I thought it would be great for the Everglades with snake charming capabilities etc. The rifling is so shallow it is not accurate, the pattern with #4s at 30 ft is about 3 ft in diameter. I wouldn't trust that loosy goosy frame with any thing stronger than cowboy loads. Get yourself a good Ruger or Smith 44 mag. load it up with good heavy duty rounds and for snakes get some rat shot. I have three other Taurus firearms and they are really nice weapons but the Judge is not one to depend on.

 

[KodiakBeer]

If you're pleased with the Judge, you'd ecstatic with a real .45 Colt. You can get a Blackhawk or Bisley for the same money and not have to worry about it blowing up in your hand if the load is too hot. I wouldn't trust "the guy at the gun store" saying a particular load will be fine in your Judge.