teachers who can't do

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taliv

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Rob said this in brownie's thread and it made me think a bit. I have a question but didn't want to derail that thread anymore.

I've seen plenty of guys who have been on cool teams, "seen the elephant", been to dangerous places at dangerous times and/or trained with some of the "most respected" instructors and still been uncoordinated, overconfident, sloppy with safety and have mediocre or worse skills.
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My question is generally, what do you think about instructors who can teach but can't do?

I'm sure we've all seen instructors who can't shoot impressively, and blackbelts (per the other thread) who would get their butts kicked if they ever got in a fight. But sometimes they still have good info to share, or are pretty good teachers. maybe?

Let me ask the question a different way: if Joe Schmoe, who hasn't seen any elephants or been anywhere more dangerous than a super Wal-mart after they close the 2nd doors, and has mediocre or worse skills, but KNOWS a lot. Can he still be a decent teacher? how would you know?

asked a 3rd way: Bob Schmoe, who used to be top tier, is now 70 yrs old with Parkinson's, or spent far too much time at the buffet and now has difficulty waddling up and down the firing line. Bob sure doesn't shoot like he used to. Can he still be a decent teacher?

asked a 4th way: as a student, do you measure the value of what you learn in classes based on how impressive the teacher's skills are? or on the academic or theoretical merits? or by reputation?


if your answer is "by reputation" then how do you avoid the "my <crappy brand> gun never malfunctions!" internet reputations?
 
Well, let me put it this way...

I would have taken what the late Col. Cooper (RIP) to heart, even after he was to old to actually do it himself.
 
Personally, I think that you can learn something from ANYONE. The guy who reads a lot, but has no experience can teach you what the books have to say. The guy who has been around the world has seen things you never will. The tool who has done nothing and knows nothing can teach you what you look like when you're talking out your rear end.

The main thing is that unless you know somebody fairly well, it's hard to judge what they know. You just have to keep your ears open, keep your brain engaged, and watch for useful information wherever you can find it.

-J.
 
I would say, it definitely all depends! :p But seriously some folks have an intuitive understanding of things and can relate them, now personal experience usually helps, but is not always necessary. Take sports for instance. Who was the better basketball coach, Jeff Vangundy (who never played a game in his life or Herb Williams who played professionally for years?

JV was a MUCH better coach, he understood and could relate bb much better even w/o the actual experience.

I have known very successful tallented people who were great in their field but just could not relate it to others. Some people just don't have the gift. Others do. To become a good teacher of anything it takes a knack for understanding not just what you are supposed to be teaching, but also how to successfully pass it on to those who are there to be taught. I judge teachers (of any subject) not so much by their own experiences, but by their ability to relate the material to their students.


Personally, I think that you can learn something from ANYONE. The guy who reads a lot, but has no experience can teach you what the books have to say. The guy who has been around the world has seen things you never will. The tool who has done nothing and knows nothing can teach you what you look like when you're talking out your rear end.

The main thing is that unless you know somebody fairly well, it's hard to judge what they know. You just have to keep your ears open, keep your brain engaged, and watch for useful information wherever you can find it.
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I agree, I think that you can, everyone is fit for something, some just are fit to be a bad example!:D

But unfortunately just as there are some people who are better teachers, some people are just better students. A good student will usually be fine even with a poor teacher, but those poor students usually need someone who can help them out.
 
Teaching is not doing. Doing is not teaching. The fastest virtuoso guitarist in the world may not be able to teach you ANYTHING. Where a great teacher could observe this fellow and probably teach something worthwhile.

That said, it is better to have a great teacher who has experience than a great teacher without. Doing brings greater insights than studying or observing.
 
I Teach

I have taught college level computer languages.

I always taught something I actually did in real life.

Some of my students were smarter and I was, learned well from what I gave them, and went on to outperform me. That's an accomplishment of which I am still proud.

I have taught concepts over which I have no mastery, but which I have observed to be true. I just don't pretend that it's within my competence.

I have discovered that I can teach shooting. One of my students shoots better than I do (my son, as it happens), one shoots better than I do with a rifle (my daughter) and one shoots pistol, but not as well as I do -- yet (my wife).

I figure if I can teach actual members of my own family and get better results from them than I can, myself, achieve, I'm doing something right.

I'm not Yoda, but like him talk I can.
 
What part of shooting am I learning?

If I'm learning basics (gunhandling, safety, operation, etc.) then I can learn from anyone except the bumbling idiot mentioned who has terrible safety conciousnes (see example in first post).

If I want to shoot extremely accurately, I'd go to people like organized shooting teams or clinics/classes where tiny groups are the norm. I know some good shooters who've never been in so much as a bar fight, much less a gun fight. I can learn accuracy from them, though.

If I want to learn speed, I'd go to the likes of Todd Jarrett or Rob Leatham. I don't believe either one of them has made any claim of having been in .mil, le, or such, but they are very fast. They seem to be able to teach it, too.

Now, here's where it changes. If I'm going to learn how to engage an opponent, use cover and concealment properly, observation techniques, properly use an ODA loop, move through structures, equipment selection (and I'm a minimalist because of this), retention techniques, CQB, etc.

I want to learn these from someone who has
A) used these methods to good effect repeatedly. Example would be a school I've attended, the lead instructor is a 20-something year vet of the county narcotics division and SWAT.
B) teaches these methods to people who use them to great effect repeatedly. Example would be a training officer who teaches proven skills that are expected to be used by officers on the street.
 
I'm not Yoda, but like him talk I can.
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Yoda simply used English with a French grammatical structure.

Now, here's where it changes. If I'm going to learn how to engage an opponent, use cover and concealment properly, observation techniques, properly use an ODA loop, move through structures, equipment selection (and I'm a minimalist because of this), retention techniques, CQB, etc.

I want to learn these from someone who has
A) used these methods to good effect repeatedly. Example would be a school I've attended, the lead instructor is a 20-something year vet of the county narcotics division and SWAT.
B) teaches these methods to people who use them to great effect repeatedly. Example would be a training officer who teaches proven skills that are expected to be used by officers on the street.
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You've hit upon a key concept. It's possible to learn many individual skills from those who specialize in that skill. Putting them all together in a dynamic situation is best learned from someone who has experience at that very thing. It's a lot like medicine in that generally speaking, most folks with a medical background will be far more proficient at first aid than most laymen. Would you rather have the young department store clerk handy or a dentist when you pass out and keel over? Well, all things considered, the dentist is probably a better choice.

Would you rather have the dentist or an experienced combat medic handy if you had a sucking chest wound? Even though his level of training is far more detailed and specialized, I'll pass on the dentist. Give me the experienced combat medic, please.

The funny thing is, that young department store clerk may very well be the experienced combat medic in his or her other life as a military reservist. Ya can't always go by the title.

Ability to act and ability to teach are two different things. The best of both worlds is to have a teacher who has the ability to do what he teaches and has proven it.
 
Teaching: Theory and application.

Learning a skill is not comparable to learning information. I can explain the theory of nuclear energy, even break it down to terms a gradeschooler can understand. I cannot, however, apply that theory. I cannot teach anyone else how to, either. My knowledge is limited and my experience is nil.

Teaching numbers, letters and facts rely on a mental skill set that can be mastered by anyone of average or greater intelligence and passed on to those who know less. A transfer of information is all that is required.

Applying those things requires another level of mastery. Sure, you may help your kids with their homework. Do you feel qualified to run a high school chemistry lab? Biology lab?

Howard Cosell would be a good example. How many teams hired him as a coach?
 
A transfer of information is all that is required.
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That may be the understatement of the week.... Conveying and transferring information is skill set all of its own. As someone who hires, trains and certifies instructors I can assure you that there are a lot of people who possess a great deal of information and/or know how to do things at a high level of skill who do not have the ability to transfer the information efficiently or effectively.
 
And on the flip side, there are people who are geniuses with complete mastery of their prospective field(s) yet they have no ability to relate with other people and teach. So the blade cuts both ways.

I had one instructor in school who was so smart and thinking on such a different plane as his students that none of us could follow his train of thought/reasoning. He couldn't/wouldn't "dumb it down" because he saw it as a waste of his time.
 
This reminds me of meeting my first good teacher.
Without any hoopla or bs, this person moved in their environment with ease and exuded a sense of experience that people picked up on and didn't need to verbally acknowledge.
To me, this is the difference. And this person is the standard by which I judge instructors.
I am a good enough interviewer (journalist) that I can smell BS a mile away and know a BS instructor within 1 minute of them starting their introduction or greeting.
It's like the description that Richard Strozzi-Heckler gives of the way the participants of the Trojan Warrior project received the different "Senseis" sent to train them in combat skills.
After you meet a few, you just know. Whether they can or can't do is really immaterial compared to whether or not they're for real.
 
We actually agree.

Mr. Pincus, we actually agree, if you'd read my post carefully, or I'd worded it better. I'm not sure which. Probably the latter.

My point was that teaching someone "two plus two equals four" is a simple exchange of information. Teaching a working skill is another matter entirely, hence the Howard Cosell analogy.
 
This might be digression, but:

I can smell BS a mile away and know a BS instructor within 1 minute of them starting their introduction or greeting.
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You can probably do better than that. When I was doing some teacher training (that's teaching teachers how to teach) we had a factoid that I can't find a reference for. It only takes students about 6 seconds of watching (without sound) a teacher to figure out the quality of their teaching.

-J.
 
What experience are you looking for?

Jeff Cooper for example never used his doctrine in combat, yet myself and others consider him as one of the best experts on gun fighting.

Anyways I agree with what Andy Stafford wrote in his book Surgical Speed Shooting, you should get training from many different schools, and take different methods to bring together your overall doctrine.
 
My question is generally, what do you think about instructors who can teach but can't do?
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You can learn something from everyone. However, there are things that someone who hasn't done it cannot teach. There are teachers who cannot shoot who are good instructors because they are knowledgeable and there are great shooters who possess great skills but cannot convey them. The teachers who cannot do can only teach to a certain level. They can teach theory and concept well because they are so knowledgeable. But practical application is another story. If they haven't seen it from behind the gun, there are things they can't teach. Who do you think could teach you to shoot better, Bobby Knight or MJ?

On the other hand, if a person with lots of skill cannot convey that skill in an easily digestable manner, then he might as well not have the skill. The best teachers can do both.
 
taliv,

Some good replies and well reasoned posts made already in this one.

what do you think about instructors who can teach but can't do?

The question begs the question: Why can't they do what they teach?:D

It's going to be dependant on that answer as well as what field they are teaching in and whether I think it is relevant what they have been able to do at one time or not where I decide who I take my training from.

It would be hard for a physical skills instructor to teach blades, H2H if he couldn't work with you physically through the skills. Cerebral subjects can be taught by any anyone who has a working knowledge of the subject, but I'd still prefer a trainer/teacher who had been in the field first hand, the insight of hands on will likely be more valuable to the student.

The transfer of information is not all thats required to be a good instructor when it requires a hands on/physical skills subject IMO. A good instructor leads by example, instilling confidence in the student that the instructor is not asking them to be proficient in a subject physically that the teacher can't demonstrate.

As well, there are three distinct ways to learn. Physically doing [ tactile ], seeing it demonstrated/performed [ visual ] and the wriiten/verbal exchange between the student and instructor [ cerebral/mental ].

Not everyone learns equally as well in all three areas. If they get it all three ways, there is a better exchange of information passed between the student and the trainer.

Lets take for example the medical profession. Class time alone with verbal and perhaps enhanced with visuals on the chalkboard are not going to be enough for a heart surgeon to be near proficient at the operating table. Nor does the medical profession allow them to operate without lots of hands on under the guidance of their peers/instructors until that surgeon has the skills to do the operations himself. Simply exchanging information is not going to be enough in some professions to become proficient.

Brownie
 
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In my experience, "doing" and "teaching" are two very different things that require two very different skill sets.

To give an example, one of my primary hobbies is racing. I volunteer as a high-performance driving instructor with a number of well-respected organizations. Some of the very worst instructors we have seen are people who race for a living. Some of the best instructors we have are people who teach for a living (e.g., high school teachers, college professors) but happen to know a LOT about driving.

Who cares if your instructor holds the lap record at NHIS if he can't communicate his knowledge to the student? I'd rather have a guy who is an excellent communicator and trained instructor, even if he's 1 second per lap slower than "Mr. Superstar."

One of my best driving instructors hobbles around on a cane and hasn't been behind the wheel of a car on the track since the late 1970's. He taught me more than all the young "hotshoes" who would probably run rings around this guy today.
 
If you only regarded highly-skilled instructors as the only ones whose knowledge is "valid", virtually all of the advice on this forum would be worthless. You can learn from ANYONE, be it the 2007 IDPA champion, your local CHL instructor, a CHL carrier, a retired cop, or even a new guy who has never shot the gun he is using before.

What changes is where you glean your new knowledge. You watch the IDPA champion and see what he's doing, because 99.9% of it is correct even if he cannot express it in words. You listen to and watch your CHL instructor because in order to become an instructor, he must not only know the CHL curriculum better than you, he must qualify to a higher level than you are expected to meet (in most states). You listen to the CHL even if you're a better shot because if you'e not a CHL, he has situational knowledge and experience you probably do not. Same thing with the retired policeman. And you both listen to and watch the new guy, because the new guy has bad habits that you can identify and avoid, but if the new guy has been "bitten by the bug" he will learn everything he can and may know things about specific guns that you do not.

Here's a good tip for life in general: receive (take in) all the information you can, from every source. Whether you choose to accept or reject it is up to you, but divergent viewpoints are necessary to advance the human race. Theories are hypothesized and then challenged, and the results of the challenge support or disprove the theory. This is true both in academic and "real-world" circles; you act based on incomplete knowledge of the past, mixed with assumptions based on past experience. It's basic psychology, but when it goes wrong, because of biased, incorrect or incomplete information, it's called stereotyping, racism, bigotry, and general narrow-mindedness. These negative effects are mitigated by having as much information as is feasible, from which you can make more informed suppositions using more complete information.
 
You watch the IDPA champion and see what he's doing, because 99.9% of it is correct even if he cannot express it in words.

He's a demonstrator

receive (take in) all the information you can, from every source

excellent, as I've mentioned, I want to hear it/listen to the explanation/the how to as it were, see it peformed to get visual input and then perform the skill to develop the physical capabilities require under the guidance of a trainer who can correct me in real time. Getting it from every resource at my disposal [ using as many senses as possible ].

Trainers who are not demonstrators: What do you do when a student asks "Can you show me, so I can see how/what you are talking about?" If I'm a student, I'm going to have a hard time if I have to watch other students demonstrate when I'm paying the instructor to do so if at all possible [ where physical skills are concerned ].

Brownie
 
Tiger Woods has a golf coach, and you don't know his name. Tiger might be a better golfer, but he obviously believes that his coach has something to teach him.

Theoretically, teachers and coaches are about improving your performance. A good instructor can make you better, they can spot and correct the mistakes that are reducing your performance because they understand the subject in depth.

Realistically people look for instructors with experience because they assume that the instructors can make good judgements about what is relevant. I think that this sounds good on paper, but unless the experience is relevant I don't think it helps. The military and law enforcement applications are not always the same as the self-defense applications.

A number of instructors on this forum talk about integrated systems instead of just shooting, because they have realized (through experience or training) that just being a good shooter is not enough.
 
You watch the IDPA champion and see what he's doing, because 99.9% of it is correct even if he cannot express it in words.

He's a demonstrator
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I have to agree. You cannot necessarily learn a lot from a demonstrator or from watching a champion. There are nuances that escape what you may see without a cogent explanation of concept and application. For example:
Students ask me all of the time "why doesn't the muzzle rise when you shoot and it does when I do?"
I can say "Watch, I'll show you" and fire some rounds. They probably won't gain much knowledge. Or,
I can explain the concept behind the technique in minute detail. They may have gained conceptual knowledge but not practical and struggle trying to apply it. Or,
I can say "here, you try it" and let them try to fumble through it on their own. Or,
I can say "put your hand on my forearm while I'm firing, feel the amount of tension. Now you try it." Then have them experience how it "feels".

Any one of those techniques seperately will probably leave the student wanting. However, if you combine all of them then you increase the likelihood of the student absorbing the knowledge. Add reinforcement and follow-up and you have a pretty powerful teaching method.

Not to diverge too much - you can learn something from everyone. Sometimes you learn what not to do. There are also people who you don't want to learn from and those you shouldn't learn from. Particularly in the firearms industry. There is nothing worse than spending time, money and effort to learn a technique and then having to unlearn it.
 
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