Technical Question About IDPA Classification Rules

[TEX]

Would like opinions on a technical question concerning a certain IDPA rule’s interpretation. This is rather long and may seem nit picking to some, so if you'r not willing to contribute in an adult manner, please click the “Back” button and move on. This question has already been presented to the IDPA in Arkansas and an answer was received, but I was interested in whether or not folks out there interpreted it the same way.

The question has to do with re-classification to the next level by virtue of finishing at the top in a major match. The rules of which can be found under Appendix 8, Section “E” (Classification). Under that section “There are two ways a shooter can be reclassified."

SCENARIO: A shooter classified as SSP/SS competes in a regional match and finishes first for SSP/SS. There are only 9 total SSP/SS shooters however in the match so, on the surface, and it would seem that he would not get bumped to SSP/EX because of item 1 in Appendix 8, Section E, which reads…

1. If total participation in a specific classification within a division is 10 – 19 shooters, the winner of this class will automatically be promoted up to the next higher classification.
Now since there were not 10 or more shooters in SSP/SS, the shooter would not be reclassified due to this reason. The section item in Appendix 8, Section E reads ….

2. If the winner of a division and classification has a better score than 10-19 people in his classification AND the classification above his within the same division, the shooter will be promoted to the shooter’s next higher classification.

Now in the class just above SSP/SS, which is SSP/EX, there are a total of 12 shooters, but the shooter who finished first in SSP/SS beats the score of only 3 of them. Now this means that he beat a total of 12 shooters if you combine SSP/SS and SSP/EX. He did not beat the 3 shooters in the SSP/MA which is the highest level and the only one remaining above SSP/EX.

Now, the big question is; does the first place finisher in SSP/SS get bumped to SSP/EX according to item 2 above. Look carefully at the exact wording of item 2. It says, “If the winner of a division and classification…”, leading one to possibly believe that it applies only to someone who is both a division and classification winner. If you were the division winner does that mean you beat everyone in SSP/NV, SSP/MM, SSP/SS, SSP/EX, and SSP/MA combined?

Further on item 2 states “has a better score than 10-19 people in his classification AND the classification above his within the same division, the shooter will be promoted…”. The wording “AND” is all capped in the actual rules indicating that it has some special significance.

Does it mean that you add the total number of shooters in both classifications (shooters classification and the classification above his) of the same division, or does it mean he has to beat both 10 in his classification and then also 10 in the classification above his. If this is so, then would he have not automatically been bumped by virtue of the 10 in his own classification and item 2 would have never come into play. If this is so, then could the rule be better stated to something like “If the winner of a classification has a better score than 10-19 people, combined, in his classification AND the classification above his within the same division, the shooter will be promoted to the shooter’s next higher classification.”

So, does the shooter get promoted from SSP/SS to SSP/EX or does he remain in SSP/SS? Please give your opinion and why you see it that way.

Thanks - TEX


Appendix 8, Section E (Classification)

There are two ways a shooter can be reclassified at a sanctioned match:

1. If total participation in a specific classification within a division is 10 – 19 shooters, the winner of this class will automatically be promoted up to the next higher classification. If 20 – 29 shooters compete in this division/classification, both 1st and 2nd place competitors will be promoted, etc.

2. If the winner of a division and classification has a better score than 10-19 people in his classification AND the classification above his within the same division, the shooter will be promoted to the shooter’s next higher classification. If the 2nd place competitor of a division and classification has a better score than 20 – 29 shooters in his classification AND the classification above within the same division, the 2nd place competitor will be promoted, etc.

 

[DragonFire]

I say the shooter gets promoted.

Actually rule 1 applies since you said there were 9 other competitors in the class/division, and rule 1 says a "total" of 10-19. But even if you change it so there's only 9 total with that class/div, then the shooter would get promoted because of rule 2, which should be interpretted to read that the winner beats 10-19 shooters combined in his class/div and in the next higher division.

I've never heard of a division winner in IDPA (would that be the highest SharpShooter across all classifications?), so I would buy the arguement that you'd need to be a Classification and Division winner to be moved up. That would limit it to the overall match winner who would be the only to claim winning both.

IDPA is more the "spirit" of the law, rather than only what is explicitly started. The idea is that if you win your class/div and beat 10 or more competitors at or above your level, you get promoted. Yeah, the rule could be stated a bit more clearly, but the intent is pretty clear.

 

[Tim Burke]

I think DragonFire has the correct answer and the correct logic, except where he says:

I would buy the arguement

I think that's a typo and he meant to say he wouldn't buy the argument.

 

[Jim Watson]

Your initial scenario, that a shooter wins his class over nine others, means he gets promoted anyhow, because that makes him No 1 in a class of 10.

If he had been No 1 in a class of 9 SSP Sharpshooters AND had beaten one SSP Expert... the lowest in that class, then he would be promoted. He does not have to beat everybody in Expert or 10 in Expert, just win the class over nine total in that class and the next above.

Many matches recognize a Division Champion. So you have SSP Champion, First Place Master, First Place Expert, First Place Sharpshooter, and First Place Marksman.
IDPA does not allow awards for an overall match winner, but we all know who he is.

 

[The Drew]

You did say that there were 9 other shooters, making total participation 10. Shooter should be promoted.

Division winner is just that, winner of all participants of all classifications in each division. We had these at the keystone Cup and not all were masters (most were).

 

[TEX]

Thought I would get a few more replies, but thanks to those who did.

The rule concerning this is worded a little oddly, but IDPA Arkansas' answer to just such a real life question was that it meant if the number of people you beat in your division/classification and the classification directly above you in that same divsion totals 10 or more then you get bumped up if it is a major match. The wording should probably be changed the next time the rules are updated.

This question only came to light for me when I was involved in such a match where there were only a total of 9 shooters, including me, in a certain division/classification and I finished first. When the scores were first hung it showed 10 shooters in the classification so I was bumped. No problem so far and I was not at all unhappy. I was stoked and had something cool to hang on the wall. Then when reviewing the scores after they were posted on the internet only 9 total shooters, including me, showed up in my classification. My wife noticed it and I completely missed it. This got me to thinking and so I contacted the match director, first of all to see if the number of shooters was correct, and secondly, if so, did it mean I was bumped when I should not have been. It took him a few days and a little research but he did get back to me and told me that in his understanding, the item 2 part means I should have been bumped anyway because the total number of people I had a better score than combining the two classifiactions, mine and the one above, was 12 which is 10 or more. OK, still I am a happy guy.

During all this time I never really dug that far into the rules concerning it because I had never gotten that close to first before. I was happy with the match directors answer and thought I had let it end there. Then at another major match someone told me that this was incorrect, so when I got home I looked carefully at the rules. I thought I was confused before. Now I didn't know which way to interpret the rule, and the more I read it the more it seamed like it could mean different things. The division and classifier top finisher together seemed to negate item 2 in all of it because if you won the entire divison, you had to of taken first somewhere along the line. So I wrote to IDPA and they said what was stated above and that the match director called it the way they intended it to work.

Here is the rub. I have asked around and it appears that some match directors, where there is a low number of shooters in a classification (under 10) are not really looking at the classification above to see if the top finisher in the low number classification should be bumped anyway because of the number of folks he bettered in the classification just above his.

Seems to me that you don't need an item 1 and an item 2. You just need something like this..

"In the same division, if the first place finisher of any classification has a better score that a total of 10 shooters in his classification and the next higher classification combined, he will be moved up to the next higher classification."

Anyway, thanks for your replies - TEX

 

[Jim Watson]

How many more explanations of the same thing did you need?

Your phrasing would cover the situation, the reason the rules are so convoluted is that the business about beating shooters in the next higher class to make a field of 10 was added after the original promotion scheme was set up. Then they had to have verbiage to promote second place out of a class of 20, third of a class of 30, etc.

Don't hold your breath for another revision of the rule book.
Getting this one done was like pulling teeth and there are several things in it that were not greeted well at that.