Tense Florida Traffic Stop with Firearms

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You don't have to tell them anything about weapons. The cop disarming your wife broke the rules of the game. At that point, they're the criminal, not you. Don't let them get away with that.

There are a lot of dirty cops in Florida. Beware.
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I carry because I have a stalker - I have reported this guy 15 times to the local cops - they don't understand the laws, and really just get aggravated when you question them. I just gave up even reporting stuff.
 
LE does not have the right to run the numbers on your firearm without reasonable suspicion that 1: you have committed a crime, 2: you are committing a crime or 3: the gun is stolen.


really? how so?
 
From the FHP bulletin that Sabastion linked above:

At the end of the encounter, return the weapon to the subject in a manner that allows the subject to regain control of the weapon, but does not allow it to be readily accessible for use. For instance, return the firearm unloaded and hand him or her the bullets. Thank the subject for cooperating with you and ask him or her not to make the weapon readily accessible again, until you, he or she has parted the encounter.
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This is exactly what happened to me after a traffic stop in rural NW FL about 4 years ago. The deputy in that case also seemed very nervous. I handed over DL and CCW, and he asked me to keep my hands on the wheel. When he asked where the pistol was, I told him I was wearing a shoulder holster (it was DEC, so not too hot for a light jacket). He asked if he could reach into my jacket to retrieve the pistol. Since that would have been very difficult for a nervous guy to do without flagging me, I asked him if I could slowly remove the jacket, then slowly remove the entire holster and hand over the rig. He said no. I didn't really know what choice I had at that point - I asked that he be very careful not to flag me with my own gun. To his credit, he was.

I got a verbal warning, and the gun handed back with the slide locked to the rear. Next he handed me 3 empty magazines (one from the gun, 2 spare mags on the off side) then the shoulder holster. Finally there was this awkward transfer of 51 9mm JHPs that he had unloaded from the magazines. I was asked to drive down the road a ways before loading up again, and I complied.

All in all probably the weirdest LEO encounter I'd had up to that point. The guy was relatively professional the entire time, even if he appeared a little on edge. It certainly wasn't the most negative law enforcement contact I've ever had - that would be one similar to yours with backup arriving, requests to search, and repeated questions about why I thought I needed a gun permit. In that case, I did what you did. Be polite, be professional, and document the encounter in a letter to the department head.
 
the_skunk said:
I carry because I have a stalker - I have reported this guy 15 times to the local cops - they don't understand the laws, and really just get aggravated when you question them. I just gave up even reporting stuff.
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Don't give up. The long paper trail of calls to police can save your butt the day the cops have to come draw a chalk outline of the stalker on your living room floor.

I've always told my kids; If you're in the right, a paper trail is your friend. (And you darn well better be in the right!)
 
LE does not have the right to run the numbers on your firearm without reasonable suspicion that 1: you have committed a crime, 2: you are committing a crime or 3: the gun is stolen.


really? how so?
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Because they don't have a search warrant? I put grips on my carry gun that cover up the SN.
 
psyopspec said:
From the FHP bulletin that Sabastion linked above:

At the end of the encounter, return the weapon to the subject in a manner that allows the subject to regain control of the weapon, but does not allow it to be readily accessible for use. For instance, return the firearm unloaded and hand him or her the bullets. Thank the subject for cooperating with you and ask him or her not to make the weapon readily accessible again, until you, he or she has parted the encounter.
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I would prefer they return the cartridges intact, The bullets alone aren't much use until I get home and start reloading
 
can anyone point to a case, in real life not the internet, where a cop running a serial number of a firearm hes gotten his hands on has been ruled a no no?
 
can anyone point to a case, in real life not the internet, where a cop running a serial number of a firearm hes gotten his hands on has been ruled a no no?
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The courts generally don't pay much attention to the 4th Amendment anymore. It still says what it says.

To find the case you are looking for, first the cops would have to find a gun that was identified as stolen or having been used as a crime. Then have that evidence thrown out as being inadmissible. (and I've heard the police even have an answer for that -- the SN was visible and they just happened to see it; no expectation of privacy and all that. Like leaving your bag of weed on the table in plain view of the front door when you answer it.)
 
i have to see the dash cam video of this before i comment further.
 
I was once pulled over by a city LEO in a mid-sized town I lived in in Alabama. Apparently there had been a truck stolen that matched the description of my truck. The cop pulled me over and immediately came to my window. I saw him pull in behind me and unless they had lightening fast cell service or in car computers in the 1980s he did not contact dispatch prior to exiting his car. He came to my window and asked to see my DL. As I handed him the DL and CCW I noticed that it was a guy I had gone to church and HS with. He got very nervous and asked if i had a gun. my answer was "no" because I did not routinely carry back in those days. He then asked me to wait while he ran the plates and my ID. Once again, I had known this guy well for several years and he was tense around me.

I think you played it as well as possible. I am also a bit confused about the officer asking you to exit the car but that could have been because there was another passenger and, as you stated, he was obviously nervous about something. I have dealt with Barney Fife's and I have dealt with Andy Taylor's (God rest their souls) and often they are a part of the same force. You may have been within your rights, I don't know FL law, to refuse any or all of the requests. Had you refused or lied I doubt that the outcome would have been as easy as it was. Nobody was hurt, no ticket was given, and you were on your way in just a short while. I think that is better than being "right" and spending several hours sorting it all out at the local station. Maybe not ideal but probably better. I am willing to give LEOs a good bit of leeway in carrying out their duties because I think I understand the pressure they are under during a routine traffic stop.
 
They can arrest you for minor traffic infractions folks. But you need to ask "Am I being arrested?"

My practice is keep my hands UP from the very start, and tell them I'm armed and were. Obey all instructions regarding the firearm. They don't need a warrant to secure the scene. Typically they'll unload it and set it aside.

I'm not sure about the bizarre instructions about sitting down, standing up, looking towards him while standing up and sitting down. Sounds like he was trying to jostle you. They'll do that. Like ask the same question repeatedly before you can answer, or interrupt you. It's just two-bit tactics that sometimes work on drug runners or other criminals. Keep your cool, never consent to a search of your vehicle.

If asked to exit your car, one method is to carefully remove any necessary registration papers (you should have those in a clear plastic envelope handy) and lock it behind you. Keep hands in the air and avoid digging in your pockets for anything. Locks are great. They can't get through them without a paper trail of some sort.
 
Cosmoline said:
They can arrest you for minor traffic infractions folks. But you need to ask "Am I being arrested?"

My practice is keep my hands UP from the very start, and tell them I'm armed and were. Obey all instructions regarding the firearm. They don't need a warrant to secure the scene. Typically they'll unload it and set it aside.

I'm not sure about the bizarre instructions about sitting down, standing up, looking towards him while standing up and sitting down. Sounds like he was trying to jostle you. They'll do that. Like ask the same question repeatedly before you can answer, or interrupt you. It's just two-bit tactics that sometimes work on drug runners or other criminals. Keep your cool, never consent to a search of your vehicle.

If asked to exit your car, one method is to carefully remove any necessary registration papers (you should have those in a clear plastic envelope handy) and lock it behind you. Keep hands in the air and avoid digging in your pockets for anything. Locks are great. They can't get through them without a paper trail of some sort.
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Not in Florida. There are very, very few traffic infractions that are arrestable.
 
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Originally Posted by Cosmoline View Post
They can arrest you for minor traffic infractions folks. But you need to ask "Am I being arrested?"

My practice is keep my hands UP from the very start, and tell them I'm armed and were. Obey all instructions regarding the firearm. They don't need a warrant to secure the scene. Typically they'll unload it and set it aside.

I'm not sure about the bizarre instructions about sitting down, standing up, looking towards him while standing up and sitting down. Sounds like he was trying to jostle you. They'll do that. Like ask the same question repeatedly before you can answer, or interrupt you. It's just two-bit tactics that sometimes work on drug runners or other criminals. Keep your cool, never consent to a search of your vehicle.

If asked to exit your car, one method is to carefully remove any necessary registration papers (you should have those in a clear plastic envelope handy) and lock it behind you. Keep hands in the air and avoid digging in your pockets for anything. Locks are great. They can't get through them without a paper trail of some sort.
Not in Florida. There are very, very few traffic infractions that are arrestable.
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Oh, there are plenty that they can arrest you for, but not for minor offenses such as speeding. They can only make an arrest on a criminal offense (Driving While License Suspended, Reckless (but not Careless) Driving, DUI, Leaving the Scene of an Accident, etc.)
 
I'm assuming this is all truthfully told on your part and will answer. Keep in mind I am a police officer but not in Florida.

1)Was this felony protocol? Their weapons were not drawn, but I find it highly irregular to be asked to exit the vehicle and to place my hands on their hood for speeding. I'm not a felon and do not even have a traffic record.

Felony protocol is to bring you out at gunpoint one at a time and have you on the ground before one officer approaches to detain you with one covering still with a weapon drawn. After each is removed in this manner and detained armed officers approach and check the vehicle for additional hidden suspects.

2) Although in Florida there is no duty to disclose, I did so without the expectation of being disarmed. If I could do it again, having thought about it, I would likely still disclose, however I would not have disclosed any information about the passengers of my vehicle, namely my wife. I felt really uncomfortable being disarmed. I felt I made a mistake by disclosing information about passengers and firearms.

I feel that if Florida is really a state where people have no duty to disclose then Florida has some downright stupid laws that endanger leo's for no good reason. Duty or not you did the right thing. For YOUR safety and the officer's you should always disclose IMO.

3)I find it highly irregular that they would then go on to disarm the passenger on a routine speeding stop. My wife felt threatened by the twitchy officer and when he pursued the issue on the basis of officer safety, after she protested and stated he would need a warrant, she decided to cooperate.

In my state I have the right to take any weapon temporarily during a traffic stop for officer safety and I check every single one to make sure it isn't stolen. How do you think most stolen weapons end up being recovered?

4)Although in Florida had I resisted disarmament or had my wife resisted disarmament, legally I feel we would have been justified. However, the officers threatened to pull their weapons on me and did not seem to know much about the law. Furthermore, legal battles happen after the fact... with an infant in the car we had no interest in anything other than getting back on the road, rather than taking a stand for the 4th amendment with two twitchy officers.

4th amendment? I'm unsure what that has to do with this. They could easily justify disarming you for their own safety. You did the right thing.

5)The officers threatened to pull their weapons on me 3 times, what gives? They seemed really nervous.

I didn't hear a threat in what you wrote.

6)Although I'm glad I didn't get a ticket, I do feel like I have been violated. I do not appreciate being disarmed for no reason on a traffic stop, and again felt they were out of line disarming a passenger with a baby.

Yeah they should have risked an armed confrontation instead? I'm not saying they didn't do anything wrong. I obviously was not their. I have no idea of their side, experience and training (or lack of such if your account is accurate), or why they acted the way they did. If you feel you were wronged why not contact their department and find out the procedure to make a complaint? Their are countless reasons they could have wanted you disarmed.
 
2DREZQ said:

Wierd. Although the cops may be wrong, they are absolutely in charge in such situations. IMHO it is better to comply even when they are wrong (except for requests to search my vehicle, I NEVER grant permission for that.) and go on your way. I believe that numerous positive experiences with CWP holders may well mellow the officers approach to honest citizens.
I've been in at least 8 "LEO-Interfacing Situations" My weapon was unloaded and locked open on the dash twice (before I changed my technique) and every other time I've handed my License over with my CWP showing right next to it, and once when I called the cops I told them I was a CWP holder. In every instance but one the officer pretended he didn't see anything or ignored my statement. The one other time he conversationally asked me what I was carrying, how I liked it, etc (just talked about guns for several minutes) and let me off with a warning.
I guess North Dakota cops are real professionals.
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1. Never let them search? That seems pretty unreasonable. In my state if I have a suspicion of drugs then I can detain you for a reasonable period of time out of your vehicle while I await a k-9 to walk around your vehicle.
2. I don't worry about legal carriers of firearms CCW permit or not. It's the guns I don't see that worry me.
 
gatorjames85 said:
You did fine. You can always ask if you are free to leave. At that point, the LEO either has to detain you or let you leave. If they say you aren't free to leave, you can ask for an attorney and the LEO is then barred from further questioning. If you had pursued this course of action, you can imagine the reaction you might have gotten.

Based on the LEO's behavior, it's pretty safe to assume that you were profiled as some sort of law breaker (drugs, theft, who knows). As far as the law in Florida goes, you can lawfully resist an illegal command by law enforcement with nonviolent means but not violent means.

Edit: Almost forgot. You should definitely report those two to the relevant contact at their agency. Their behavior was inappropriate (based on the information provided), as you might have guessed.
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I am seeing tons of bad advice in this thread and will just have to stop after replying to this. Honestly some of you need to consult with an attorney if you feel your rights are violated as some of these armchair constitutional rights experts are going to have you doing things that result in you having a criminal record.

A traffic stop is a legal form of detaining you. Until it is over you are detained.

Yes you can legally resist an unlawful command but you better be darn sure it is an unlawful command and you can justify it in court later on. You are opening yourself up to numerous criminal charges otherwise. You need to be sure how things are handled in your state but in mine (not Florida) anything that is considered reasonable in the line of "officer safety" that your resist is going to get you arrested and charged with misdemeanor resist, delay, or obstruct.
 
I didn't hear a threat in what you wrote.
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The OP clearly said that the LEO would have drawn on him 3 times on his original post. IMHO that is a threat espcecially since the OP has not done any crime or resisted the LEO in any way.

While I agree that LEOs have every right to take reasonable precautions for their safety, the idea that their safety is "paramount" is patently false. If their safety was the most important consideration, they would be incapable of doing their jobs. Being an LEO is always going to involve accepting some element of risk. I don't think that their safety justifies harassing law abiding citizens going about their business, even if they are involved in minor traffic infractions
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I would tend to agree with this. The civilians' safety SHOULD be just as important as the officers safety IMO; I'm sure LEO's would disagree to this and would argue that their safety is "more important" than the publics...

The OP's experience is out of the ordinary for sure. In all my years living here in FL, I was pulled over many many times for traffic infractions (in my younger days) and never have been treated as the OP did, where they told him to come out to the LEO's car. What gives? what reason does the LEO have to do that instead of routinely just going beside the car's window for nothing more than a traffic violation? It is very weird for sure, but hopefully this was an isolated event from one specific officer.
 
Felony Stop

Back in the good old days in Detroit, the LEO would always maintain a (long) list of recently stolen cars. Thus, if your car bore even a vague resemblance to anything on the list, your stop for speeding or other minor infraction could easily escalate to a felony stop and reasonable cause for search...So, please be kind and considerate towards the LEO. He or she is just doing a job to make the streets safer for all of us and can easily make life very difficult for you.
 
The Man With No Name said:
1. Never let them search? That seems pretty unreasonable. In my state if I have a suspicion of drugs then I can detain you for a reasonable period of time out of your vehicle while I await a k-9 to walk around your vehicle.
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I respect your position, and comply very carefully with all lawful orders and requests. I answer any questions truthfully, and treat the officer with the same respect I would want from him, even if he isn't giving it.

That being said, I NEVER CONSENT to a request to search my car (remember, folks; at the border they don't need your permission!) strictly as a matter of constitutional principle. I inform the officer that it is nothing personal, I just don't do that. If tell me I'm not free to leave, and they are calling in a drug dog, or some such thing, Fine, I STILL don't get upset. (I am one of those people who doesn't rattle easily) I've got all day. I want the entire stop clearly visible and audible on the dash cam, for my own safety. I'VE NEVER HAD IT GET THIS FAR, SO THIS IS THEORETICAL! In actual contacts, I've never gotten anything from a cop in return for my calm respect but the same from him, even at 12 over the limit.
Well, there was one constable in Canada that was a total jerk despite my politeness. Obviously I wasn't armed then.

2. I don't worry about legal carriers of firearms CCW permit or not. It's the guns I don't see that worry me.
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Exactly! The impression this thread gives is that cops are scared stiff of legal CWP and think everyone else is a harmless dolt. I REALLY doubt that is the case.

BTW: Thanks for your service behind that badge. We need all the good cops we can get.
 
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