Getting pulled over as a passenger

[smalls]

I get a weekly newsletter from MCRGO, and in it they have a lawyer answer a few questions. I read through the Q&A this morning, and found something I disagree with, and would like to see what everyone else thought. Here's what the newsletter said:

If I am a passenger in a car that is pulled over and I am carrying my pistol, do I have to disclose to the officer who comes up to the driver's window that I am carrying?

A: Yes. MCL 28.425f states: " (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle." If the vehicle you are riding in has stopped, you have been stopped, and must disclose immediately to the officer that you are armed. Obviously, you want to state this fact in a businesslike and calm manner. Have some sympathy for the position of the law enforcement officer, and let him or her know that you are disclosing as required by law. Some officers recommend that you hand over your CPL and Driver's License together as your method of disclosing. Remember that you must carry your CPL at all times that you are carrying a concealed pistol, as well as your Driver's License or state-issued ID card.

Here's the part I have an issue with:

If the vehicle you are riding in has stopped, you have been stopped, and must disclose immediately to the officer that you are armed.

Now this obviously depends on the situation, but if my wife was pulled over for speeding, why am I "being stopped"? I didn't speed, I'm the passenger.

Now if we were pulled over for something other than a traffic violation, say robbery or something, I assume that the officer would in fact tell me that we were both in suspect of committing a crime, and both were being detained. At that point I'd have to disclose that I am carrying.

So what says THR? If I'm a passenger in a vehicle that is being pulled over, am I being detained as well as the driver?

 

[Godsgunman]

Abide by what your state law says. Maybe wait and see if the officer even addresses you in the first place. If its just a speeding violation, he will most likely direct everything towards the driver. I live in a state where you don't have to declare.

 

[Art Eatman]

"...why am I "being stopped"? I didn't speed, I'm the passenger."

The law is written that way. To get the answer to "why", ask a legislator. Nobody else can answer your question--without sarcasm, anyway.

 

[zxcvbob]

The law isn't written that way, the commentary about it is written that way. Look where the quotation marks end. It's kind of open to interpretation, isn't it?

I would not mention the gun unless the cop addresses me, and then I would. But I could be wrong... Is there any case law about this? (rhetorical questions)

 

[rondog]

If YOU were the cop, wouldn't YOU want to know if someone in the car was carrying a gun? Cops get shot by passengers too, ya know. Let 'em know immediately, and save yourself a lot of grief.

 

[Frank Ettin]

In this sort of situation, it's a good idea to accept a lawyers suggestion about how a statute is likely to be applied. He may be a bit inclined to be conservative, but it your goal is to avoid trouble, that's not a bad way to approach things.

The law isn't written that way, the commentary about it is written that way. Look where the quotation marks end. It's kind of open to interpretation, isn't it?...

A lot of things are open to interpretation. The lawyer is basing his suggestion on how he has concluded, based on his training, education and experience, and in the exercise of his professional judgment, the statute is likely to be interpreted and applied. That's the sort of thing a lawyer earns his living by doing well.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I'd pass my concealed weapons permit to the driver so he could give it to the officer when the officer asks for drivers license and registration.

 

[DSling]

I would declare in a calm manner. Cops are a little on edge when they do a traffic stop because they do not know what they are getting into yet. Just be calm and courteous and he/she will reciprocate.

Justifying my means with their end.

 

[smalls]

If YOU were the cop, wouldn't YOU want to know if someone in the car was carrying a gun?

Wasn't really looking for opinions, but since you asked, no. I wouldn't be worried about the lawfully carrying person.

I'm only going to do what is legally required of me.

"...why am I "being stopped"? I didn't speed, I'm the passenger."

The law is written that way. To get the answer to "why", ask a legislator. Nobody else can answer your question--without sarcasm, anyway.

This is why I asked, I've never seen the law interpreted that way. I wasn't disagreeing with the law (if it is law), but how it was interpreted by this lawyer.

 

[smalls]

In this sort of situation, it's a good idea to accept a lawyers suggestion about how a statute is likely to be applied. He may be a bit inclined to be conservative, but it your goal is to avoid trouble, that's not a bad way to approach things.

I understand what you're saying, but I feel as if this lawyer just said "Well it sounds like a good idea, anyway. So I'll pass it off as law". Not to mention this is not my lawyer, I haven't paid him to do any research.

 

[Red Sky]

If YOU were the cop, wouldn't YOU want to know if someone in the car was carrying a gun? Cops get shot by passengers too, ya know. Let 'em know immediately, and save yourself a lot of grief.

While I agree with the OP to some extent as to not needing to declare when you aren't the driver, I think this is the best advice that can be given. It won't hurt anything. Standing up for your rights in pointless scenarios for the sake of pride alone does not accomplish anything to be proud of (I'm NOT accusing anyone here of that, just making a discussion point!). The cop is trying to do his job, and while you may be less than happy about being pulled over, there's no sense making his job any more surprising/scary than it already is. I would just tell him/her, show the license (if necessary where you live), and be done with it. I've even heard of people getting off without a ticket just for being upfront about carrying - some cops really like to see people who carry, especially when they come across friendly and non-confrontational even after being pulled over. Just my thoughts on the issue. I will stand up stubbornly and even violently for my rights if it is necessary - but giving the cop a bit easier of a time doesn't hurt anyone or imply that I am surrendering my rights.

 

[Sam1911]

We've had MANY good discussions about why (or "whether" if you prefer) it is not a good idea to declare your carry weapon to an officer if it isn't required by your state law.

This thread isn't about that, so let's drop that side track.

 

[Frank Ettin]

In this sort of situation, it's a good idea to accept a lawyers suggestion about how a statute is likely to be applied. He may be a bit inclined to be conservative, but it your goal is to avoid trouble, that's not a bad way to approach things.

I understand what you're saying, but I feel as if this lawyer just said "Well it sounds like a good idea, anyway. So I'll pass it off as law". Not to mention this is not my lawyer, I haven't paid him to do any research.

Nor are you compelled to pay any attention to him. But you also don't appear to have any more solid basis for disagreeing with his interpretation beyond:

...I've never seen the law interpreted that way....

The law, on its face, applies when someone is stopped, i. e., "...to arrest the progress or motion of....". The driver, the car and you as passenger are stopped, i. e., the driver, the car and you aren't going anywhere for the time being.

Furthermore, the driver and you are going to be in the LEOs presence until his business with the driver is concluded. Arguably a reason for the notice law is to assure that an LEO knows that some folks he's in close contact with are lawfully carrying guns. That allows him to make some decisions about how he handles things. It also helps assure that if he notices a gun, he has the information that the gun is lawfully in that person's possession.

Of course some States don't have such notice laws. That only means that they either didn't find those policy goals compelling or they had other reasons for not enacting such laws.

But this State has such a law, and its policy purposes can be served by expecting a passenger in a car to be subject to the same rule as the driver.

Of course it's possible that a court would reach a different conclusion. But absent a clear court decision along such lines, it would be professional inappropriate for a lawyer to assume that a court would so rule.

When the "downside" is a criminal charge, and if there's no applicable case law clearly to the contrary, the professionally appropriate interpretation of the law is as quoted in the first post and as I've outlined above.

 

[powder]

Everyone in the vehicle is being momentarily detained.

To avoid a problem scenario have your DL and CPL card ready, so you are ready to present them. Keep your hands in plain view and make eye contact with officer. It sounds like your state requires you to give notice to the officer.

If I do not know who you are, I have zero idea about whether or not you are "... lawfully carrying...", or if you are a convicted felon who is carrying: w/o your proper ID and CPL, how does a LEO know?

 

[9mmepiphany]

Now this obviously depends on the situation, but if my wife was pulled over for speeding, why am I "being stopped"? I didn't speed, I'm the passenger.

If I'm a passenger in a vehicle that is being pulled over, am I being detained as well as the driver?

You're mixing terms in English and trying to apply them to Legal meanings.

Pulled over and Stopped don't have the same meaning. That is why a common sentence is, "A Vehicle Stop (technique) was initiated and the suspect vehicle was pulled over" (action verb)

The car was pulled over (action), but you have been stopped (defined term) because you were in the vehicle.

If you want to know if you are being Legally Detained, get out of the car and start walking away; but it might be easier to just ask if you are free to leave.

I have had several passengers, on vehicle stops, ask and I've always told them they are free to go if I didn't have a reason to detain them. If they stay, it becomes a Consensual Contact and I can ask them further questions.

Of course, CA doesn't have a requirement to notify for CCW holders

 

[NavyLCDR]

So what says THR?

Why not ask another lawyer? You would be likely to get the answer you wanted (and I believe the answer you want is inline with the law). It also depends on who has hired the lawyer and what their "slant" is. A lawyer hired by an organization that teaches CCW courses, for example, is going to lean towards the "conservative" so that a student doesn't go out there and stand up for their rights and when they get a citation they will blame the CCW course/lawyer.

A lawyer hired to defend rights would be more likely to tell you to keep your mouth shut because you have nothing to do with the traffic stop, except as a witness to the offense, but I have never had an officer collect any information on any passenger as a witness.

My personal interpretation, which is worthless, is that I would not inform unless the officer addressed me specifically in an official manner, and then only in a state that legally required notification.

 

[smalls]

The law, on its face, applies when someone is stopped, i. e., "...to arrest the progress or motion of....". The driver, the car and you as passenger are stopped, i. e., the driver, the car and you aren't going anywhere for the time being.

I suppose this makes sense, but...

Everyone in the vehicle is being momentarily detained.

I'm a little uncomfortable with being detained because of whatever the driver did.

You're mixing terms in English and trying to apply them to Legal meanings.

I think you're right.

If you want to know if you are being Legally Detained, get out of the car and start walking away; but it might be easier to just ask if you are free to leave.

This is a good idea. I suppose I could ask if I'm being detained at all, and if not, then there's no requirement to notify.

Why not ask another lawyer?

Because my lawyer is pretty expensive, and I value your opinion, Navy!

My personal interpretation, which is worthless, is that I would not inform unless the officer addressed me specifically in an official manner, and then only in a state that legally required notification.

Now that I think about, I've never been addressed by an officer in this kind of situation. How can I be detained if the officer doesn't even acknowledge that I'm present?

 

[9mmepiphany]

I suppose I could ask if I'm being detained at all, and if not, then there's no requirement to notify.

I didn't say that.

The next paragraph includes:

If they stay, it becomes a Consensual Contact and I can ask them further questions.

Depending on how your state has defined Stopped, you might then be obligated to notify

 

[smalls]

If they stay, it becomes a Consensual Contact and I can ask them further questions.

So if I ask if I'm being detained, and they reply that I am not, but I stay anyway then it's still considered consensual contact?

I know that sounds like I'm being difficult, but I'm really just trying to understand this a little better. It's not very often that I'm a passenger, so I never really thought about it.

 

[9mmepiphany]

So if I ask if I'm being detained, and they reply that I am not, but I stay anyway then it's still considered consensual contact?

Not only is it that, but your staying confirms that it is consensual on your part...because it you wanted to terminate the contact, you'd leave

 

[Sav .250]

Don`t try and swim against the current.......... Follow the law. Much easier!

 

[smalls]

Follow the law. Much easier!

Well that's what I'm trying to figure out, exactly what is required of me as a passenger. I've seen this particular lawyers interpretation, but I don't believe he's right, and it's muddied my waters. But I've also been wrong once or twice in my life, as well.

Not only is it that, but your staying confirms that it is consensual on your part...because it you wanted to terminate the contact, you'd leave

Thank you for clarifying that. Now I'm not sure what to think, because just because I choose to have a consensual contact does NOT mean I have to notify, unless it's asked of me. Only during detainment. But

 

[Duckdog]

n the state I'm in, we have no obligation to notify. I personally will not notify unless I am asked and if it pertains to the situation. In fact, in my state, we are under no obligation to provide ID without a valid suspision that I am commiting a crime. In my humble opinion, the officer has an obligation to notify the driver why they are being stopped and has to have a valid reason to detain me, as the passenger. To allow them to just intimidate us because they may be "on edge" is not acceptable.To allow otherwise opens the door to randoms stops and all the other stuff that goes along with that type of behavior, none of which are good.

So, I would keep my mouth shut.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Don`t try and swim against the current.......... Follow the law. Much easier!

or.... follow the law and nothing more.

 

[blarby]

Is it just me, or did Frank nail this one all the way back in #6 ?