The .270 Was Obsolete The Day It Was Created

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Llama Bob

Llama Bob

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That's right. In 1917, the 7mm Brenneke came out. It has a .284 bullet, 1:220mm (1:8.6") twist, and dimensions effectively identical to the -06 cartridge family - same case head diameter and an OAL a couple hundredths shorter. It fits in any gun that can be chambered in .30-06 or 8mm Mauser. Max pressure (CIP) is a reasonably modern 61KPSI giving it the same performance as a .280 Remington. In addition to all lighter bullet weights it's well suited to the 170+gr spire point hunting bullets suitable for elk sized game in this bore diameter.

Eight years later, Winchester introduced the completely inferior .270 with the wrong bore diameter, wrong twist, incapable of shooting good elk bullets, and with literally no advantages over the Brenneke other than familiarity. They were simply ignorant of what was going on in Europe and made an inferior cartridge that we're stuck with to this day.
 
Obsolete? Not so, where is the 7 mm brenneke today? Used as tomato stakes maybe

Course I favor obsolete cartridges, .25-06, .270 and .300 H&H. I’m always told they’re obsolete, but they refuse to believe it.
 
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rbernie said:
It just goes to show that the imperfect solution that’s available is always better than the better solution that’s not. :)
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There's no reason other than Winchester's ignorance that they didn't simply offer the M70 in 7mm Brenneke. They did substantial extra work, including pioneering bullets for a new and unneeded bore diameter, to create a purely inferior cartridge.
 
Technically, Beta-max was superior to VHS. Guess which one won out? (Of course, both of them are dinosaurs today.)

I bet that I can go into just about any gun store in the nation and find .270 ammo. I wonder how many I would need to visit to find one box of 7mm Brenneke?
 
Sistema1927 said:
I bet that I can go into just about any gun store in the nation and find .270 ammo. I wonder how many I would need to visit to find one box of 7mm Brenneke?
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Brilliant job of paying no attention whatsoever to what was said and just airing out how much you don't understand.

At the time .270 was introduced, there weren't boxes of .270 on the shelf. Had Winchester simply chambered for the superior 7mm Brenneke, that's what would be on the shelf. Instead Winchester was ignorant of what was available, and gave us the inferior cartridge which some people still cling to.
 
Sistema1927 said:
Brilliant job of not being able to endure criticism of your original point. It is called a discussion forum, and it would be pretty boring if every response was "Isn't Llama Bob correct?"
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Criticism implies you had something vaguely related to the point to say. You didn't. You failed to understand any of it and are still failing.
 
Sistema1927 said:
I'm sorry, but it is you who are showing a total ignorance of market forces.

Feel free to have the last word, I am done. You just aren't worth the time.
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Says the guy who posted 3 times in the thread. You're a pathetic little fellow, aren't you?

For those with better reading comprehension, you will notice "the day it was created" in the thread title. There were no market forces related to the .270 then, as no one had even heard of it. Hopefully this is clear to everyone but Sistema1927, for whom I'm sure it's completely opaque and he's as confused as he's been all thread.
 
I sure hope someone at Remington is reading this thread! They can really get a jump on Winchester with the re-introduction of the 7 mm Brenneke here in the USA as a new replacement for the inferior .270 Win. While they are at it, they can claim this vastly improved round replaces their 1978 7mm-06, which they later renamed to the 7 mm Express, which they eventually changed to .280 in 1981 all in an attempt to make this superior round gain some sales. Perhaps they should rename it one more time to the 7mm Brenneke American. The name has a catchy ring to it, doesn't it......LOL
 
Llama Bob said:
You're a pathetic little fellow, aren't you?
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As much as folk may otherwise be inclined to consider your perspective, your conduct makes it difficult. <sigh>

There is no doubt that there were technically superior chamberings, by any standard, when the 270 was introduced. There is no doubt that Winchester could have widened their aperture and looked abroad for inspiration. But what was done almost a century ago has been done and cannot be undone, and so here we are.

Other than allowing you the opportunity to continue your pissing contest with Garandimal, I’m not sure that the point even matters - 270 became established in the market place where the other technically superior chamberings did not. It clearly did it for reasons other than technical superiority.

The point regarding Betamax versus VHS is probably reasonable – VHS won the adoption war despite being technically inferior. The same could be said for 270. It might be interesting, in an academic sense, to understand why a technically superior product fails. It doesn’t seem particularly interesting, on the other hand, to create threads seemingly for the purposes of pissing on other forum members.
 
Winchester and the .270 had a great salesman and did a great marketing job. When it comes to guns, myths sell pretty well. In my opinion the 7-08 is the best of that class but it is less popular because all of them work pretty well. You don't need to have the best cartridge in the world to do well hunting. In the modern days of big box stores they tend to stock fast movers, some great cartridges are disappearing.
 
Llama Bob said:
Had Winchester simply chambered for the superior 7mm Brenneke, that's what would be on the shelf. Instead Winchester was ignorant of what was available, and gave us the inferior cartridge which some people still cling to.
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Some people? Hardly.

But, who chambers the brenneke on this side of the pond?
 
Llama Bob said:
inferior .270 with the wrong bore diameter, wrong twist, incapable of shooting good elk bullets,
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Boy, I just wouldn't have figured.
Dropped a big Red Stag in NZ couple weeks ago. 1 shot, puff (shooting supressed) flop. Ruger 77 in of all things .270 Win
Wish I would have read this thread before I went. :rofl:
Would have looked for a Brenneke. :thumbdown:
 
Yeah, some things just need the right “push”. How many versions of the 300 Blackout fizzeled out before the AAC push made it somewhat popular? Not to mention there is nothing “spectacular” about it, at all.
 
The 270 was on the chopping block. It had been in production for 25 years and was such a slow seller that Winchester was just on the verge of cancelling the cartridge out right. Had Jack O'Connor not adopted it and started writing about it it would have did a quite death after WW-2.

If you look at a LOT of cartridges some make it, others don't, and often for illogical reasons. The 30-30 was obsolete 5 years before the 1st rifle was ever made. It was a huge step backwards in cartridge and rifle technology. But is popular, at least in this country.

When you get right down to it every bottle necked cartridge burning smokeless powder from 26 caliber to 36 caliber essentially do the same thing. They can all take the same game with proper bullets. We all have our favorites, as I do. But if really forced to do so we had the 6.5X55 and 7X57 in the 1890's. Either of those will kill any animal in North America, including big bear, with proper bullet choice. And with different bullets will take smaller game at ranges farther than 95% of hunters have any business shooting. Nothing developed since the 1890's is significantly better. Add the 375 H&H developed in 1925 for the really big stuff and we have all we need for any big game hunting on planet earth.
 
i really like the 7mm brenneke, and very much considering if for my next mauser build. first place i looked that will ship ammo here to ny, and the have it for $12.95/20 with a 140 sp.
 
Jmr40 pretty much hit the bullseye. For normal use almost every cartridge does about the same.

I’ve owned bolt action rifles in a lot of different cartridges, all will work within reason.
 
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