The .45 ACP and Law Enforcement

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Whenever I talk to different ammunition & firearms manufacturer folks and ask about the current standing of calibers being ordered by LE agencies, I keep hearing the .45 ACP is enjoying a resurgence of interest. Granted, it's still hanging back there in 3rd place behind the 9mm & .40 S&W ...

I know of a number of local agencies (among several counties) who either issue or authorize personally-owned weapons chambered in .45 ACP for duty usage. Off-duty usage of personally-owned .45 ACP weapons seems to be increasing at a faster rate, though.

Overall ergonomics and grip dimensions of weapons chambered in .45 ACP can create some potential issues for some users. Glock's introduction of the .45GAP is one response to this market force, and S&W did an excellent job of designing the new M&P 45 grip frame and grip inserts to meet this potential need, as well.

While I'm not all that concerned about the specific caliber I carry as an issued weapon ... and have carried issued weapons chambered in 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP ... I'm presently carrying an issued compact chambered in .45 ACP with a capacity of 7+1 ... and I'm not loosing any sleep over it.

I do tend to think the slightly smaller overall size of most 9/40 platforms will continue to give both calibers an advantage when it comes to selecting service weapons that can accommodate the widest range of users, though.

It's just a handgun, anyway ...
 
Green Bay, De Pere, Ashwaubenon, Brown County, Allouez PD's in Wisconsin carry G21s. The detectives are issued a G30. A G30 is also available as an option to unformed officers upon request. Some of the larger framed cops got issued the G21 as primary and have the G30 as a BUG.

I used to hang around with and shoot with the SWAT guys. Their choice? G30 with G21 Mag and A&G sleeve. Has the grip of a full size and larger capacity but short barrel for quicker draw. The .82" barrel difference isn't much ballistically and only offers a longer sight radius, but for room distance, it doesn't matter.
 
Since when was the .45 ever in widespread use with Law Enforcement? Seems to me most agencies switched from .38s and .357s to 9mm, then to .40.
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True enough as far as I am concerned. LAPD was all 38 revolvers for a very long time, they went to the 9mm Beretta (same as the military) now they are pretty much Glock 40 cal, some 9mm and 45. Issue as a rule is the mdl 22 Glock 40 cal.

Backup guns can be different. Most use the same cal as their "std" issue for ammo sake. I know of a few who carry the S&W but there is a grandfather clause, time in grade etc...:)
 
IMO a large part of the reason the .45 ended up with such a modest share of the LE pie lies with the fact when all the departments where switching from revolvers, the 1911 with its low capacity, scaaary single actions issues and its *then* reputation for being fussy about feeding HPs out of the box, was about the only game in town

Also the .45 JHPs of the day seemed to have the reputation of being less than reliable when it came to expanding in flesh, along with most other subsonic JHPs of that era.
 
Most of the problems with the various calibers have to do with ammunition and recoil. For years the .45ACP has been overrated by well meaning people who just let reality get away from them. The fact is, ball ammo is still ball ammo, and the 230-gr. military ball ammo was big, heavy and not much better than 9mm ball ammo. In Korea, the Chinese casualties often were found to have been killed with machine gun fire, as .45 slugs were many times embedded in their heavy quilt winter coats.

By the time premium quality .45 ammo was being issued (hot 185-gr JHPs), premium quality 9mm, .40, and .38 Spc. ammo also were available. True, the .45 ACP JHPs didn't often expand at speeds they were launched at, but the JHP configuration made the bullets far more accurate and increased stopping power.

There were lots of failures to stop determined people with .45 ball ammo and I think that had a bad effect on the caliber's acceptance. It was heavier, more expensive and fewer rounds could be loaded. Its trajectory also was not as flat as the others.

I don't like any ball ammo. It just doesn't stop determined foes, regardless of whether it's .45 or 9mm. And a major problem with the .357 was that it was assumed early on that the 158-gr JHPs were the best. They ended up penetrating too much and bouncing all over the place. The 125-gr JHPs had a fearsome muzzle blast and were hard on the guns (though the Highway Patrol loved their anti-vehicle capabilities).

The 9mm was really quite usable, but really effective bullet configurations were awfully late in coming. The 115 gr Federal JHP +P load is one I'd consider to be ideal, but advances in bullet configurations, powder, etc., have make most of the other calibers, even the .38 Spc, highly effective.
 
As others have noted the 45 ACP was never a common round for police. Most police departments issued 38 special revolvers from the early 1900s until the late 1980s. The 45 was hampered by low magazine capacity and the fact that almost all 45s were single action 1911s. By the time double action 45 acp models were developed the police had already moved to 9mm and then 40.
 
Many Depts. didn't like the "cocked & locked" look of M1911s being carried by patrol officers. It looked too threatening.
 
Every .40 I have ever fired had a sharper recoil than my 1911.
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I concur!

The .40 has a much snappier recoil compared to my .45

I will agree that the .40 does settle down a bit when chambered in a all metal platform compared to a polymer frame - but even then, I have always thought the 1911 was a much smoother shooting platform.
 
I work for a small dept in LV. The issue weapon is the sig 229 but we're allowed to carry from a wide list. Most of the officers that carry their own weapon chose the .45 (with most carrying the HK USP 45). I carry the glock 21/30 system. I see the major issues law enforcement agencies have with the .45 is uniformity. Many large depts. want one answer for all officers including women and guys with smaller meat hooks. Therein is the problem not many cops can get a firm grip on a double stack .45, nor do many officers feel comfortable going into combat with a single stack mag. I wouldn't want to dish out the $$$$$$ to get a 1911 that ran well. The .45 does have a place in modern law enforcement and won't be going anywhere soon. Unless they let me carry a .50.
 
1911a1

"Requires a highly skilled/trained person to use it."

Not since the last time I went to the range...

Cheers, TF

AHHH...my tuppence; shot placement wins gunfights; second law of the gunfight is bring the biggest gun you can control; as in get consistent, repeatable, accurate shot placement; I think it has more to do with the average Police depts'. willingness to develop shooting skills beyond merely acceptable levels (low bar at that). The success averages of their aggregate force go up with less demanding weapons. Looks better, is cheaper, and betrays a mindset that doesn't expect the gun to come out of the holster and actually be used. The law of averages simply favors mediocre shooters if armed with lower caliber guns. (No disrespect to line officers intended; police persons I know indicate the dept. standard is lower than most of the shooters I know expect of themselves).

I shoot very well with a 9; as observed, I have always experienced .40 muzzle flip to be really unpleasant to deal with and stay away from all of them; its' a characteristic of the round, not the guns. Yes, I've shot it in enough different platforms to know.

I haven't found anything a .40 will do better than a .45 yet, or a better platform to do it with. In fact, the platform argument favors the .45. If round count becomes an issue, its' time for a long gun anyway.

Cheers, TF
 
Well put Fury......

I agree that if you cannot solve your intial issue with 7 - 8 rounds of .45 - then if your not already....you better be headed for the long gun.

The average gunfight includes shot being fired by police to average roughly 4-7 per officer. The information comes from a study done involving NYPD from 1990 to 2000. That is well within a single stack .45 capacity.

I personally feel that a dept should allow the officer to pick the caliber/platform that they prefer. While I understand the whole concept of uniformity and the advantage that it brings when dealing with firearms - I just don't feel that the "one gun - one answer" solution is the way to go.
 
Glock 21s, LEO training/$$$/etc...

For the record, many AK area LE agencies/LEOs get the special Robar treatment to the Glock .45acp pistols to remove part of the grip area, ;). This makes the big Glock easy to hold and smaller too. www.robarguns.com

Another point is that THR.org members may know more or shoot more than many many sworn LEOs. :rolleyes: Keep this in mind, many LE agencies do not want to spend a lot of time/$$$ money on pistols/ammo/training. A .45acp may require those skills. Not all cops like guns or spend time shooting!

For the post about LEO weapon selection, I agree with COL Cooper, police officers would have more faith in their own weapons BUT as I posted before, many sworn LEOs today are not "into guns" or really care about marksmanship/firearms training. If I were a sworn LEO, I'd use a .357sig mostly but would use a .45acp in cold weather/winter months. If I wanted a .45acp for duty, I'd get a DAK model SIGsauer P-220R compact, :D. The HK is nice but I like the SIG.
Rusty S
 
My big concern always has been "hit what you are aiming at". So working night time hours most of my tour I had a set of night sights put on a revolver back in the early 70's late 60's, The person who did it was a fellow officer and came up with the idea. Had a button you activated with your finger on the grip. It worked well both front and rear sight lighted up and could only be seen by the shooter "me".

So it goes back to the same situation practice, stay alert, aware, hit what you aim at, and be careful out there.

:uhoh:
 
For most of my time in uniform, I carried a Glock 21. I do have hands that are much larger than most, so the grip size was not a problem. I like it a lot and shoot it well. I was lucky to work for departments that had chiefs who were "gun guys" so we could carry whatever we wanted within the department parameters and with which we could qualify. I managed to pass the FBI one week instructor/rangemaster class with the Glock 21, so I have a lot of fond memories about shooting it until I did not want to shoot anything anymore for awhile.

FWIW, the Kansas Highway Patrol issues the Glock 21 and has for quite awhile. IIRC, they switched over to it from the Sig 220. I have a Sig 220 and that is a fine 45 as well.

I also habitually carry a Glock 27 these days as a civilian when the 21 or 30 are just too big, and I never feel under-gunned with the .40. I think the 45 has its place and it fills it well. So do the other calibers. The best statement on this thread so far was the one about getting to or having your long gun in your hands when trouble hits if at all possible. We can debate pistol rounds all day, but very few debate 12 gauge...:D
 
There are two major factors.

First is recoil. You cannot accurately describe recoil unless you combine a caliber with a certain pistol. A 45ACP fired from a 40+oz 1911 may have a comparable or even softer recoil than a 40S&W fired from a lighter SIG P226. 45ACP fired from a SIG P220 had stronger recoil than a 40S&W P226.

However, even more significant factor is capacity and size. Glock 21 had a very manageable recoil for me, even though is was pretty light for a 45ACP pistol. But, its fat grip is a major thing that drives a lot of people away.

1911 may be slim, but it only has 7~8 round capacity. Now, I'm pretty sure than someone will say someting about pistol fights lasting only a few rounds, and the officers shoulda woulda bring a long gun to a protracted gun battle. But, you cannot deny the reality that no cop can predict when they will get into a gun battle. And like it or not, the pistol is their primary weapon unless they hold a position where they can always carry a rifle in ready position for their whole work shift. 7~8 rounds is not a capacity I'd be comfortable with for a primary weapon. The primary factor that pushed most police departments from revolver to self loading pistols was not because there was an urge for a larger caliber. It was because gangs were brandishing 20~30 round capacity weapons and cops felt disadvantaged with a 6 shot primary weapon. That explains why most major departments ended up with 15+ shot "wonder nines" by the 90's. I'm not saying all officers liked that decision, which is why many departments allow personal 45 pistols. However, the size and capacity is a factor when departmenst look for pistols.
 
The .40 S&W accounts for between 70% and 75% of the US law enforcement market. That leaves between 25% and 30% for everything else, which really means the 9mm and the .45 acp, and the .357 Sig, in that order. It almost insn't fair to include the .357 Sig, as it is a distanant fourth, with so few using it over all. If I had to guess, I'd put the number of US LEO .45 acp carriers at about 10%; no more than 15%.
 
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My .02$

Hey there:
I think one of the reasons you see SWAT teams and such using .45s is they want it done right once. double taps with .45s uasually slowdown return fire.

Most of these guys are not in the sissy class or of small size. And there are not that many female SWAT personel.

I have used . 45 for over 30 years now and never found a 14 lb spring that would handle full house loads with out beating the insides up. (1911)

Anyway , My Browning 9mm High power recoils harder then my full sized .45 does. So I have a hard time buying the recoil issue.
I got a feeling it is more along the lines of a SWAT team needs to get er done and if they are called in the "powers " in control of the deal are not to worried about paper work, where as the beat cops would be .
 
In Korea, the Chinese casualties often were found to have been killed with machine gun fire, as .45 slugs were many times embedded in their heavy quilt winter coats.

I see variations on this on gun forums but I never see any citations. I spent about fifteen minutes looking - does anyone have any decent references to support or dispute it?
 
Quote:
Every .40 I have ever fired had a sharper recoil than my 1911.
I agree, has to do with the weight of the gun I think?

I remember the first time I shot a .357 magnum, I thought it was brutal! I came to the conclusion that higher pressures convert into higher felt "recoil" (blast effect). The .40 has significantly higher pressure than a .45, and the 1911 just never seemed to recoil that harshly to me.
The LEO thing, well, if you stand a chance of getting into a firefight with a 1911 you should (I think) be well drilled in fast mag changes, it should be a reflex. Most people are not willing to step up and learn how, it would take a lot of work I expect. I'd rather have 7 rounds of .45 than 20 of 9 MM myself, but I never would. I always carry at least one extra magazine.
 
Pressure has very little to do with recoil. 9mm has significantly higher pressure than a 45ACP, but no one says 9mm 1911 kicks more than a 45ACP 1911.

Female shooter also has very little to do with it. All steel 1911 that weighs more than 40oz soaks up recoil pretty well. It's more about technique. Even if it does not hurt, if a novice shooter has his or her arms limp and the gun wobbles all over upon recoil they just think it has more recoil than they can control in many cases.

Some SWAT's use of 1911 also has to do with the fact that it is not their primary weapon. They usually have long gun with a 30 round magazine, and 1911 is their secondary, so capacity is not much of an issue.
 
I think the korean statement may be something of a myth, especially considering that most ball .45 penetrates very similar to 9mm, which has a proven track record of penetrating far further than it should.

Honestly, most of the chinese were killed by machine guns simply because they were using massed infantry charges, the same way that most japanese and russian infantry were killed by fixed machinegun positions. A .45 would be immensely inadequate when dealing with a massed infantry charge of several hundred screaming chinese.
 
I think the korean statement may be something of a myth, especially considering that most ball .45 penetrates very similar to 9mm, which has a proven track record of penetrating far further than it should.

Honestly, most of the chinese were killed by machine guns simply because they were using massed infantry charges, the same way that most japanese and russian infantry were killed by fixed machinegun positions. A .45 would be immensely inadequate when dealing with a massed infantry charge of several hundred screaming chinese.
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Flesh is a lot easier for a FMJ pistol round, much less fat slow one, to get through than heavy layers of clothing with a rock hard ice saturated "shell."
 
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