The autokey card trial

[N555]

This is the "is a picture of a machine gun a machine" case.
Things on trial:
Can the atf can say any drawing, picture, plans, papers, efile, photograph, wood cut, clay tablet, drawing on the beach, smoke signal, cloud in the sky is a machine gun if they want to be.
If the atf contacts you by email asking how to make a machine gun and you ignore the emails for lots of obvious reasons or just don't see the email, that's a crime.
Highlights.
Spent a day going on about company ownership of the company. The company was owned by individual Mr Irving he admitted he owned the company.
The agent in charge of the case I'll call "agent Hook" didn't seem to know specific details about his case. Gave a lot of "I don't know" and "I don't remember" answers when asked about numbers of agents involved and resources used.
Agent hook was forced to admit that out of the thousands of items sold by Mr Irving and eventually rounded up by aft, none were cut out. So that was a little embarrassing.
They key piece of evidence presented by the prosecutor was a series of emails sent by Agent Hook to Mr Irving about what to use and how to cut out the item in question, how to make it functional, ect. None of these emails were answered.
So their key piece of evidence appears to be failed attempts at entrapment?
Today they are bringing out another key piece of evidence, the postal inspector is set to testify that Mr Irving did in fact ship the items in question, which was never in question and Mr Irving admitted to.
I wouldn't say the prosecution has a strong or weak case, it doesn't look like they dont have a case at all.

 

[jmorris]

I’d probably show the judge this photo and ask her if she had any string…



Maybe this one and ask if she owns any wire clothes hangers.



https://www.recoilweb.com/turning-your-ar-15-into-an-m-16-150631.html?amp

 

[Carl N. Brown]

That card? Like spex on a lightning link aren't available? Google "lightning link ar15 3d print"
My public library had (maybe still does have) a copy of 'The Machine Gun: History, Evolution, and Development of Manual, Automatic, and Airborne Repeating Weapons', by Lt. Col. George M. Chinn, USMC.
Full of detailed design drawings of complete machineguns.

Now printing an outline of an AR lightning link on metal cards and distributing them by mail is kinda like waving a red cape in front of the ATF bull. What did he expect?

 

[Demi-human]

I’m neither wealthy enough, nor brave enough, to Poke The Bear.
But, I’m glad someone is poking it…

 

[N555]

Eureka, the geniuses or ignition point for the case has been revealed!
Mr Irving wanted to withdraw more than $10,000 from the bank at one time and the bank said no, Mr Irving probably was an ass to them and they reported him to the fbi. So it's originally a "structuring case".
Nothing gun related at least not at first.
Later on the bank lady we will call "Karen" decided to look at what kind of business Mr Irving had, it appeared to be something gun related. So she called her friend that worked for the atf and probably offered up some quid pro quo to get this jerk. So that's how it all started.
I could go pull $10,000 out of 2 of my banks right now and that would technically be a crime, kind of, but since I'm dreadfully boring 99.99% chance I wouldn't be charged.
No structuring case will stand on its own because any jury is going to be like "how is it illegal to take your own money out of the bank", and begs questions like "why is this guy potentially being sentenced like he went in there with a gun and robbed it if it's his money".

 

[N555]

That card? Like spex on a lightning link aren't available? Google "lightning link ar15 3d print"
My public library had (maybe still does have) a copy of 'The Machine Gun: History, Evolution, and Development of Manual, Automatic, and Airborne Repeating Weapons', by Lt. Col. George M. Chinn, USMC.
Full of detailed design drawings of complete machineguns.

Now printing an outline of an AR lightning link on metal cards and distributing them by mail is kinda like waving a red cape in front of the ATF bull. What did he expect?

The thing is the atf said things like these are nothing. Truck loads of these things have been sold by mail, at gun shows, at flea markets forever. There was even one that was 99% already cut out and no tools were required to punch it out and the ATF examined it and said it was nothing but a piece of metal.

 

[GaryNC]

"The Anarchist Cookbook" was reported to be first published in 1971 and if it did not have plans to make the "Lighting Link" it was in one of the very early revisions.

 

[12Bravo20]

I won't get into the actual case or if it is right or wrong.

What I will say is that the Autokey card is no different than engraving the third pinhole on an AR lower receiver, even if the fake pin is in the wrong location. And YES the ATF considers any AR lower with the third pinhole marked in anyway shape or form a machine gun.

Also if you go poking the bear, don't be surprised when you get mauled.

 

[Demi-human]

Okay, one thing that has me flummoxed.
How is it illegal to have more than $10k in cash?

Asking for a friend, I completely trust the banking system will have my back…

 

[N555]

Okay, one thing that has me flummoxed.
How is it illegal to have more than $10k in cash?

Asking for a friend, I completely trust the banking system will have my back…

Just having more than $10,000 cash in your possession or try to go from one place to another with more than $10,000 has become a weird class of pre-crimes where you are guilty until you can prove your innocence.
Same reasoning gave us thousands of laws that invented victimless gun crimes.
Because they can.

 

[Demi-human]

Just having more than $10,000 cash in your possession or try to go from one place to another with more than $10,000 has become a weird class of pre-crimes where you are…

barely having enough for a down payment on a Kia?

Please excuse me. My rock has been disturbed and everything is still bleary…

Back to the matter at hand.

While play stupid games, win stupid prizes, needs to be said, isn’t there some civil liberties group just aching to protect the freedom of artful expression, if even on a dog-tag?

 

[dogtown tom]

Eureka, the geniuses or ignition point for the case has been revealed!
Mr Irving wanted to withdraw more than $10,000 from the bank at one time and the bank said no,

Was a reason given? Like...did he actually have that much in his account or did that particular branch not have $10K in cash available that day?

Mr Irving probably was an ass to them and they reported him to the fbi. So it's originally a "structuring case"....

Huh?
"Structuring" occurs when a person deliberately splits a large financial transaction into a series of smaller transactions with the specific aim of avoiding scrutiny from regulators and law enforcement officials. In the US, a report must be filed by the bank for a transaction involving $10,000. If he had withdrawn $1,000 each day for ten days to avoid that CTR, he's "structuring".....and thats a crime. Getting $10,000 at once ain't structuring.....because the bank would have filed a currency transaction report with FinCEN.

 

[Speedo66]

Same with traveling out of the country with over $10K in cash.

Not a crime, just a form must be filled out.

 

[jmorris]

I could go pull $10,000 out of 2 of my banks right now and that would technically be a crime,

They didn’t tell me that when I bought my last tractor.

 

[N555]

They didn’t tell me that when I bought my last tractor.

My bank like most banks want you to notify them at least 3 business days prior so they can get extra money and so they can likely report it to their fed boi friends.
If your bank is used to dealing with farmers, ranchers and dairy types who normally deal in large single or infrequent transactions often involving cash then it's just another day for them.

 

[N555]

Was a reason given? Like...did he actually have that much in his account or did that particular branch not have $10K in cash available that day?




Huh?
"Structuring" occurs when a person deliberately splits a large financial transaction into a series of smaller transactions with the specific aim of avoiding scrutiny from regulators and law enforcement officials. In the US, a report must be filed by the bank for a transaction involving $10,000. If he had withdrawn $1,000 each day for ten days to avoid that CTR, he's "structuring".....and thats a crime. Getting $10,000 at once ain't structuring.....because the bank would have filed a currency transaction report with FinCEN.

The fbi is claiming that going around to 5 different branches and taking $10,000 out from each branch is "structuring".
Law enforcement doesn't actually care about the meaning of the law when they go to charge people.

 

[N555]

Not a crime, just a form must be filled out.

Same could be said about NFA weapons.

 

[Telekinesis]

I could go pull $10,000 out of 2 of my banks right now and that would technically be a crime, kind of, but since I'm dreadfully boring 99.99% chance I wouldn't be charged.
No structuring case will stand on its own because any jury is going to be like "how is it illegal to take your own money out of the bank”

No, it’s not a crime to withdraw any amount of cash from your accounts - there’s just a little bit of paperwork that needs to be filled out by the bank and it usually involves having an ID of whoever is making the withdrawal. Honesty these reports go nowhere unless you have a history of making very large cash deposits and withdrawals and don’t have a cash intensive business.

What does get scrutiny is when a customer is informed of the reporting requirement and tries to change the amount of the transaction in order to avoid the legal requirement to document the transaction. That is actively changing your activity in order to avoid money laundering controls - which looks a LOT more suspicious than someone just taking out $10,000.

The bank employee wasn’t being a “Karen” by reporting this. It is federal law (and has been for quite a while) that these types of transactions must be documented, and if they are not it can become a “willful violation” on the part of the individual teller handling the transaction and can involve jail time for the employee.

 

[N555]

No, it’s not a crime to withdraw any amount of cash from your accounts - there’s just a little bit of paperwork that needs to be filled out by the bank and it usually involves having an ID of whoever is making the withdrawal. Honesty these reports go nowhere unless you have a history of making very large cash deposits and withdrawals and don’t have a cash intensive business.

What does get scrutiny is when a customer is informed of the reporting requirement and tries to change the amount of the transaction in order to avoid the legal requirement to document the transaction. That is actively changing your activity in order to avoid money laundering controls - which looks a LOT more suspicious than someone just taking out $10,000.

The bank employee wasn’t being a “Karen” by reporting this. It is federal law (and has been for quite a while) that these types of transactions must be documented, and if they are not it can become a “willful violation” on the part of the individual teller handling the transaction and can involve jail time for the employee.

If Mr Irving would have been polite to the bank Karen it seems like none of this would have happened.
She sounds like a wantabe rso who calls the atf whenever they think they see an nfa violation at the range.

 

[N555]

Was a reason given? Like...did he actually have that much in his account or did that particular branch not have $10K in cash available that day?




Huh?
"Structuring" occurs when a person deliberately splits a large financial transaction into a series of smaller transactions with the specific aim of avoiding scrutiny from regulators and law enforcement officials. In the US, a report must be filed by the bank for a transaction involving $10,000. If he had withdrawn $1,000 each day for ten days to avoid that CTR, he's "structuring".....and thats a crime. Getting $10,000 at once ain't structuring.....because the bank would have filed a currency transaction report with FinCEN.

My bad, reread and I didn't make that as clear as I should have.
Mr Irving tried to take out a fairly large sum of money from the bank he normally uses. The bank manager lady told him they don't have that much money on hand. They the 2 of them exchanged words. Mr Irving took his $10,000 from that bank, then proceeded to go to 4 or 5 other bank branches withdrawing $10,000 from each of those. All of it was his money. The prosecution is saying that's the structuring charge...

 

[dogtown tom]

The fbi is claiming that going around to 5 different branches and taking $10,000 out from each branch is "structuring".

They could be correct.

Law enforcement doesn't actually care about the meaning of the law when they go to charge people.

Unless you know the federal currency transaction reporting requirements that may not be an accurate statement.

 

[dogtown tom]

If Mr Irving would have been polite to the bank Karen it seems like none of this would have happened.
She sounds like a wantabe rso who calls the atf whenever they think they see an nfa violation at the range.

The difference that you conveniently ignore is the range officer has no duty to report jack squat to the ATF.
The federal currency reporting requirements are a legal requirement. A bank or bank employee that fails to abide by federal banking laws may face fines and criminal charges. The employee who "accidently" forgets to file such report would be lucky that they only lose their job.

"being polite" has jack squat to do with anything related to federal banking laws.

 

[dogtown tom]

My bad, reread and I didn't make that as clear as I should have.
Mr Irving tried to take out a fairly large sum of money from the bank he normally uses. The bank manager lady told him they don't have that much money on hand. They the 2 of them exchanged words. Mr Irving took his $10,000 from that bank, then proceeded to go to 4 or 5 other bank branches withdrawing $10,000 from each of those. All of it was his money. The prosecution is saying that's the structuring charge...

Mr. Irving sounds like an idiot.

 

[21H40]

Mr. Irving sounds like an idiot.

It really sounds like this isn't so much of a case of over-reach as it is one of special behavior winning special prizes. I was hoping that there would be an effective challenge to some of the ATF's shenanigans, but I don't think this is it.

 

[dogtown tom]

It really sounds like this isn't so much of a case of over-reach as it is one of special behavior winning special prizes. I was hoping that there would be an effective challenge to some of the ATF's shenanigans, but I don't think this is it.

Don't get me wrong....I'm not referring to the product he designed, but going to five bank branches withdrawing cash.