The autokey card trial

N555 said:
.......No structuring case will stand on its own
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I wouldn't hang my hat on that.:rofl:
The feds sure as heck win convictions on structuring cases. Even when the $$$ involved are being deposited: https://www.fincen.gov/resources/la...-leads-structuring-conviction-mortgage-broker

because any jury is going to be like "how is it illegal to take your own money out of the bank",
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No jury or juror will ask that because its not about "your own money" and it certainly isn't illegal to withdraw your own $$$$. It's because "structuring" deposits or withdrawals specifically to avoid federal cash transaction reports is a federal crime. It doesn't matter if its your own $$$, or your company's. The prosecutor will make it darn clear why its a violation of federal law.





and begs questions like "why is this guy potentially being sentenced like he went in there with a gun and robbed it if it's his money".....
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Oh please.
If found guilty, he'll be sentenced because he violated federal law and damn well knew what he was doing.
 
In the few Federal trials I was a defense witness in involving BATFE violations in the 80s, all were reduced to improper paperwork violations . For instance one was in 1986 involving manufacturing machine gun violations because defendant had purchased a dozen auto sears in late 1985 and was selling AR15s in his licensed gun store which also did gunsmithing with mills ect. he had books and templates on the modifications but no such modified weapons were found in the raid from a "tip" or made according to the man who was a SF Officer highly decorated and an ex LEO . I set on witness bench with the agent in charge , who I knew and he explained " we are trying to establish the first 'intent' case because he could and we are trying to stop illegal manufacturing " . Well out of 30 charges they got two paperwork violations on sales of two of a case of Raven .25 pistols. Still a serious crime which put him out of business, took away his rights (until pardoned by a president was arranged a couple years later) and he got community service. . His NRA lawyer could have squash the search warrant because the tip was a bad one done out of politics, but chose to fight it on constitutional grounds :( . The two other cases had similar results, they can always get you on paper work , back in the day .
 
GaryNC said:
"The Anarchist Cookbook" was reported to be first published in 1971 and if it did not have plans to make the "Lighting Link" it was in one of the very early revisions.
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OMG I remember the controversy when that book came out. As I recall, they wanted librarians to track and record the names of everyone who checked it out. I'm afraid to look for a copy to this very day for fear I'll wind up on a list.
 
D.B. Cooper said:
OMG I remember the controversy when that book came out. As I recall, they wanted librarians to track and record the names of everyone who checked it out. I'm afraid to look for a copy to this very day for fear I'll wind up on a list.
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TOR Project browser is one of the best way to make it difficult for others to detect what you are look at or looking for.
 
N555 said:
My bad, reread and I didn't make that as clear as I should have.
Mr Irving tried to take out a fairly large sum of money from the bank he normally uses. The bank manager lady told him they don't have that much money on hand. They the 2 of them exchanged words. Mr Irving took his $10,000 from that bank, then proceeded to go to 4 or 5 other bank branches withdrawing $10,000 from each of those. All of it was his money. The prosecution is saying that's the structuring charge...
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Looks to me like each of those should have been reported. And even if he drove to 10 branches, taking out $1000 at each, that would have triggered a report as the total would be 10k.

Tough to get around
It's the total withdrawal that banks look at. For example, a person might withdraw $7,000 from one bank branch, then drive to another branch to withdraw $3,000 the same day. Because the funds were taken the same day, a report is triggered.

Banks have dealt with the BSA long enough to know every trick in the books. The BSA requires banks to report any suspicious activity. Let's say someone withdraws $9,999 to stay below the $10,000 threshold. Banks may report that. If someone were to come into the bank every day or two to withdraw $2,000, that could also be identified as suspicious.

How to withdraw a large sum
If you're not doing anything wrong, there's no reason to worry about a standard report winding its way to FinCen. However, if you prefer to avoid such a report, there are plenty of other ways to access your funds. Because the trigger applies to cash withdrawals, you can always:

  • Write an old-fashioned check for purchases over $10,000.
  • Use a credit card to charge a purchase, then pay the card off before the end of the billing cycle.
  • Arrange for a bank transfer. In the case of buying a classic car, you could have money transferred from your bank account to the seller.
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Not sure how one could say he was trying to “get away” with something when each and every transaction were reportable amounts themselves, before being combined…?
 
jmorris said:
Looks to me like each of those should have been reported. And even if he drove to 10 branches, taking out $1000 at each, that would have triggered a report as the total would be 10k.



Not sure how one could say he was trying to “get away” with something when each and every transaction were reportable amounts themselves, before being combined…?
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It at least ambiguous, now. I didn't think that's law means but they're charging the guy. Maybe we are entering a new era in law enforcement. If the atf can say anything is a machine gun if it pews fast enough, why not apply that logic to everything else?
If I was going to take out that much money, I would call my lawyer.
I only have that much $ in retirement accounts, so not likely.
 
dogtown tom said:
I wouldn't hang my hat on that.:rofl:
The feds sure as heck win convictions on structuring cases. Even when the $$$ involved are being deposited: https://www.fincen.gov/resources/la...-leads-structuring-conviction-mortgage-broker


No jury or juror will ask that because its not about "your own money" and it certainly isn't illegal to withdraw your own $$$$. It's because "structuring" deposits or withdrawals specifically to avoid federal cash transaction reports is a federal crime. It doesn't matter if its your own $$$, or your company's. The prosecutor will make it darn clear why its a violation of federal law.






Oh please.
If found guilty, he'll be sentenced because he violated federal law and damn well knew what he was doing.
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You said the guy was an idiot and then assume he knew about all these gotcha laws? Which is it?
I agree the guy seems like an idiot. I bet he didn't know there were laws that turn business and personal finance into a potential mine field. It's not like banks post warnings or they teach kids in high school about potential traps when withdrawing large amounts of thier own money from a bank. I only learned of it when buying a vehicle in cash after returning from Japan back in 2005. Prior to that I had no idea just taking your own money out of a bank to make a perfectly legal purchase could a felony.
 
N555 said:
You said the guy was an idiot and then assume he knew about all these gotcha laws? Which is it?
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It's not a "which is it?" question.
He's an idiot for trying to structure his withdrawals and the entire time knowing its structuring and will lead to a CTR.
It's not a "gotcha law" because he damn well knows what he's doing.


......... Prior to that I had no idea just taking your own money out of a bank to make a perfectly legal purchase could a felony.
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Again, taking your own money out of the bank is not a felony. Never has been. To quote Walter Sobchak: "Smokey this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
When a person withdraws $10,000 in cash.....A CTR is generated. No big deal, not illegal, happens every day. And every time someone withdraws that amount the bank has to do a CTR.

If the US Attorney charged him with structuring, they believe he was withdrawing $$$$ to avoid that CTR.
 
N555 said: ↑
.......No structuring case will stand on its own
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As luck would have it, an hour ago I had a federal agent come to pick up a gun transfer. (He's not FBI, but is involved in investigation of banking and financial crimes)
I mentioned the Autokey case and the inclusion of the structuring charges.

He knew about the Autokey 'cause he's a gun guy, and we didn't talk long about the Autokey case itself. But we did talk about "structuring". He said it is rare to charge someone solely for structuring cash withdrawals, and that's because they usually discover the structuring during an investigation of other crimes. For example during an investigation for embezzlement, they may subpoena the accused's bank records and may discover cash withdrawals in amounts or in a frequency designed to avoid the CTR.
 
dogtown tom said:
As luck would have it, an hour ago I had a federal agent come to pick up a gun transfer. (He's not FBI, but is involved in investigation of banking and financial crimes)
I mentioned the Autokey case and the inclusion of the structuring charges.

He knew about the Autokey 'cause he's a gun guy, and we didn't talk long about the Autokey case itself. But we did talk about "structuring". He said it is rare to charge someone solely for structuring cash withdrawals, and that's because they usually discover the structuring during an investigation of other crimes. For example during an investigation for embezzlement, they may subpoena the accused's bank records and may discover cash withdrawals in amounts or in a frequency designed to avoid the CTR.
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Some good news.
 
Every time he withdrew $10,000 cash, a report was generated, so how exactly was he structuring withdrawals to avoid the federal reporting law? His actions generated 5 reports. If he had gone to 5 banks and withdrew $9,999.99, then yeah, that would constitute a violation of the structuring law. Most banks track cash withdrawals between $9-10k internally, and will report suspicious activities to the feds.
 
Nuclear said:
Every time he withdrew $10,000 cash, a report was generated, so how exactly was he structuring withdrawals to avoid the federal reporting law? .
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I wonder about that as well.
The guy in the OP's video wasn't at the trial, instead he's relaying what others claim to have heard at the trial.....and thats a problem.
Here we are discussing hearsay of hearsay.
 
dogtown tom said:
I wonder about that as well.
The guy in the OP's video wasn't at the trial, instead he's relaying what others claim to have heard at the trial.....and that's a problem.
Here we are discussing hearsay of hearsay.
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I'm really curious about why he so desperately needed $50k in cash that day. Was he not familiar with wire transfers, checks, ACH, or other types of bank transactions? I don't understand a business that buys and sells stuff daily wanting to take the additional risk of handling that much cash.

Still feels like a financial crime and not a RKBA case, based upon the highly reliable double-internet-hearsay I have for reliable sources :scrutiny:
 
Oh no this is bad.
The prosecution spent all of day 5 making the court room watch u tube videos and reading u tube comments about the autokeycard.
The case isn't just bad, it's cringe bad.
Has there ever been a hung jury where the jurors hung themselves?
 
N555 said:
Oh no this is bad.
The prosecution spent all of day 5 making the court room watch u tube videos and reading u tube comments about the autokeycard.
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Why is it bad?
Prosecutors do what prosecutors do.......present evidence that they believe proves their case. Showing videos made by the maker of the Autokey is textbook "how to present a case to a jury".

Not just YouTube videos, but the defendants social media posts as well. Ask Daniel Perry how his texts, Facebook messenger and Twitter posts helped his case.:uhoh:


The case isn't just bad, it's cringe bad.
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Why is that?




Has there ever been a hung jury where the jurors hung themselves?
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Only if John Crump is put on trial for impersonating an "investigative journalist".

He isn't even at the trial. Geraldo Rivera is a better investigative journalist. At least he was there when the opened Al Capones vault.:rofl:
 
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It's double heresy.
Mr Irving didn't make the videos and other random people commented on the video.
Seems like they're using random tube comments to establish intent?
That's got to take some mental gymnastics.
 
N555 said:
It's double heresy.
Mr Irving didn't make the videos and other random people commented on the video.
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It's Ervin, not Irving. Matthew Hoover made the videos about the Autokeycard. He and Kristopher Justin Ervin are the ones indicted for making and selling the Autokeycard

Ervin contracted with Hoover to make the videos.
 
It looks like the prosecution appeal the jury worked. Part of their argument was "we already determined it was a machine gun, all the jury needs to do is determine if the defendants distributed them".
This puts us another step closer to anything that could possibly be tuned into a machine gun is a machine gun. Ultimately I think they want to be able to say the AR15 is a machine gun, just because some of them could be tuned in a mg, because it's close enough as is and the classic "because we said so".
 
N555 said:
It looks like the prosecution appeal the jury worked. Part of their argument was "we already determined it was a machine gun, all the jury needs to do is determine if the defendants distributed them".
This puts us another step closer to anything that could possibly be tuned into a machine gun is a machine gun. Ultimately I think they want to be able to say the AR15 is a machine gun, just because some of them could be tuned in a mg, because it's close enough as is and the classic "because we said so".
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This analysis is as flawed as every other post you've made on this case.
Thats because you haven't read the actual transcripts, instead relying on YouTubers who weren't at the trial either. Hearsay of hearsay.

Remember "The case isn't just bad, it's cringe bad." ? When a jury returns a guilty verdict before dark, it makes me wonder about what the actual evidence and testimony really was......and it certainly wasn't relayed by "John Crump, investigative journalist":rofl:.

Apparently the defense was "cringe bad", because a jury that returns a guilty plea in three hours? Wow. That's almost as fast as Judge Judy.
 
dogtown tom said:
This analysis is as flawed as every other post you've made on this case.
Thats because you haven't read the actual transcripts, instead relying on YouTubers who weren't at the trial either. Hearsay of hearsay.

Remember "The case isn't just bad, it's cringe bad." ? When a jury returns a guilty verdict before dark, it makes me wonder about what the actual evidence and testimony really was......and it certainly wasn't relayed by "John Crump, investigative journalist":rofl:.

Apparently the defense was "cringe bad", because a jury that returns a guilty plea in three hours? Wow. That's almost as fast as Judge Judy.
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I put John Crump on the same category as Chicken Little from Guns and Gadgets. Both love to sensationalize stories and use scare tactics to boost their YouTube popularity.

I have not kept up with this trial so won't comment on the outcome. But I will say it again: Expect to be mauled when you repeatedly poke the bear.
 
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