The bds PIF RMR/X-Treme 180gr 40s&w journey

[vaalpens]

This week I received PIF bullets from bds containing 180gr 40s&w X-treme and RMR bullets. Thanks again to bds for his generosity.

When I receive PIF bullets I like to document the testing I do, and then share the information with the forum members. So hopefully the PIF will not just help me, but maybe also provide some information to another member that can help with some decision making, or maybe even save some money. I know this PIF is saving me money because I get to evaluate 180gr bullets for the first time without actually buying the bullets.

This thread will probably be stretched for a few weeks since my chrono is in for repairs, so it will take some time before I will be able to evaluate these bullets.

Following is an image of the bullets I received. Also shown are two dummy bullets used to test fit.

Following is a high level reacp of what I am planning and tasks I have already performed:
-Checked bullets for weight and length
-Determine if my regular COL will still place the ogive above the case mouth
-Loaded dummy rounds to my regular COL of 1.125"
-Did a plunk test
-Did a quick cycle test to ensure there is no setback
-I have decided to use regular 1.125" COL since I can always play with the COL if I decide to start loading 180gr bullets
-I have not decided on the powder or powders I want to use yet, but for now I am leaning towards BE-86. Other powders I am considering are Power Pistol, CFE Pistol and maybe Unique. These are plated so I am not testing Longshot.
-The plan is to try and find good accuracy, and then also evaluate X-Treme against RMR

As always any comments or suggestions will be appreciated.

 

[LiveLife]

You are very welcome but I must give credit to Duvel/kcofohio/lauderdale/Dudedog/Artofgolf for originating PIF by donating bullets for testing threads and happy to have forwarded the PIF as requested - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=10358518#post10358518

have decided to use regular 1.125" COL since I can always play with the COL if I decide to start loading 180gr bullets

While SAAMI max OAL/COL is 1.135", I have found TCFP nose profile bullets to load longer and I use 1.140"+ working OAL with different barrels (M&P/Glock/Lone Wolf) to reduce gas leakage and produce smaller shot groups - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9362819#post9362819

With RMR Hardcore Match RNFP I use even longer 1.155" as shown in the comparison picture above - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9644303#post9644303

I have not decided on the powder or powders I want to use yet, but for now I am leaning towards BE-86. Other powders I am considering are Power Pistol, CFE Pistol and maybe Unique. These are plated so I am not testing Longshot.

40S&W is a versatile caliber, especially with heavier 180 gr bullet. With faster burn rate powders like W231/HP-38, you can produce lighter recoil target loads. As to slower powders, I have used HS-6/WSF/Universal/PowerPistol/AutoComp/CFE Pistol for higher velocity loads but now really like Herco and BE-86 for mid-to-high range loads that are very accurate with milder recoil. In 40S&W, Herco will burn clean and will even leave the inside of brass clean. And actually, Longshot is next powder I will be testing for 40S&W as favored by many.

Here are comparison Herco and BE-86 shot groups at 25 yards

Smallest 25 yard shot group with BE-86 - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9646469#post9646469

 

[vaalpens]

While SAAMI max OAL/COL is 1.135", I have found TCFP nose profile bullets to load longer and I use 1.140"+ working OAL with different barrels (M&P/Glock/Lone Wolf) to reduce gas leakage and produce smaller shot groups - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9362819#post9362819

With RMR Hardcore Match RNFP I use even longer 1.155" as shown in the comparison picture above - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9644303#post9644303

I used to load to a COL of 1.142" but found that I saw better chrono consistency with the powders I was using and a lower COL. The powders performed better with higher pressure I think, and I did not see much change in my accuracy. If I maybe start using a scope then I'll probably be able to detect the difference, but with combat sights and my abilities, it is difficult to detect a difference.

40S&W is a versatile caliber, especially with heavier 180 gr bullet. With faster burn rate powders like W231/HP-38, you can produce lighter recoil target loads. As to slower powders, I have used HS-6/WSF/Universal/PowerPistol/AutoComp/CFE Pistol for higher velocity loads but now really like Herco and BE-86 for mid-to-high range loads that are very accurate with milder recoil. In 40S&W, Herco will burn clean and will even leave the inside of brass clean. And actually, Longshot is next powder I will be testing for 40S&W as favored by many.

Here are comparison Herco and BE-86 shot groups at 25 yards

Thanks for sharing your load data. The BE-86 load is close to max and actually higher than what I use for my 165gr load. I am probably going to start around 5.5gr and work up from there if I decide on BE-86.

I am also still thinking of using 700X, just to get a feel how it will perform with the 180gr.

 

[LiveLife]

I used to load to a COL of 1.142" but found that I saw better chrono consistency with the powders I was using and a lower COL

Yes, I agree with OAL being dependent on powder and charge being used. While I normally start my load development with longest working OAL, if my powder charge ends up being lower for lighter target loads, I will start decreasing OAL until I have consistency and accuracy.

When THR member 1KPerDay was developing his match load with Berry's 180 gr TCFP bullet at 1.125", he was having difficulty producing accuracy with Storm Lake barrel along with occasional FTF at 1.125". I suggested longer OAL that will work with the barrel and 1.140" and 6.0 gr of Herco produced accuracy using the same bullet and barrel - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9362819#post9362819

BTW, 1KPerDay is doing pretty well now at match shooting and recently took 2nd place in Open Division - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=809493

The BE-86 load is close to max and actually higher than what I use for my 165gr load. I am probably going to start around 5.5gr and work up from there if I decide on BE-86.

You must be referencing 180 gr JHP load data which lists 6.3 gr as max charge. Alliant lists 6.6 gr as max charge for 180 gr FMC, Full Metal Case same as FMJ but with no exposed lead base at 1.120" OAL. With 1500 fps rated RMR Hardcore Match bullets, I have used jacketed load data with good results. (BTW, Alliant lists 7.5 gr max charge for 165 gr FMC bullet at 1.120") - http://www.alliantpowder.com/reload...wderlist.aspx&type=1&powderid=38&cartridge=29

40 S&W 180 gr FMC BE-86 OAL 1.120" Max 6.6 gr 1,068 fps
40 S&W 165 gr FMC BE-86 OAL 1.120" Max 7.5 gr 1,167 fps

For 180 gr TCFP/RNFP bullet, 6.1 gr is essentially start charge (10% reduction of max charge) and below start charge when used with longer 1.140" for Berry's/X-Treme TCFP and 1.155" for RMR RNFP (Yes, 180 gr bullet has longer bullet base for good neck tension even at longer OAL).

I am also still thinking of using 700X, just to get a feel how it will perform with the 180gr.

700X is fast burn rate powder on par with Red Dot/Promo and I have used lighter charges of Promo with good results but with snappier recoil than Herco/BE-86 - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9344512#post9344512

6.1/6.4 gr Herco loads' felt recoil was slightly less than 4.0 gr Promo/Red Dot loads.

I think many would agree that for 40S&W, slower burn rate than Unique powders are better suited than faster burn rate powders. I have used W231/HP-38 and faster burn rate powders for 40S&W but accuracy has not been as good. But having said that, I have no problem using faster powders like Promo for lighter 40S&W target loads if I had to.

 

[vaalpens]

bds, thanks again for taking the time to put all the information together. With the Alliant data I normally just take the lowest of the jacketed data and start 10% below the number.

One of my best BE-86 loads were actually the highest I went at 1.125" for 165gr. This is close to major and I probably could have gone higher, but the accuracy was very good @10 yards:

SIG P229, 3.9", 40SW
COL: 1.125"
Xtreme, 165gn, RNFPHPCB, BE86, 6.3gn, CCI500
Average: 988
ES: 24
SD: 10.3
Force: 358
PF: 163
Velocities: 985, 998, 1001, 983, 977

I think I will take your suggestion and start a bit higher since I am evaluating the bullets and is always nice to find that higher accurate range.

 

[Dudedog]

Why is there always one shot that just refuses to go along with the others?

Nice shooting.

 

[JimKirk]

^^^ Almost never fails .... really good group going ...saying shot #5 of a 5 shot group .... if it will gooooo ... bang .... dang... an inch from a perfect group!!!

 

[LiveLife]

One of my best BE-86 loads were actually the highest I went at 1.125" for 165gr. This is close to major and I probably could have gone higher, but the accuracy was very good @10 yards:

SIG P229, 3.9", 40SW
COL: 1.125"
Xtreme, 165gn, RNFPHPCB, BE86, 6.3gn, CCI500
Average: 988
SD: 10.3

As your shot group/chrono data indicate, I am finding BE-86 may be more flexible at producing accurate loads with lower powder charges than WSF/AutoComp/CFE Pistol. I usually loaded 165 gr over 1000 fps to ensure 170+ PF to compensate for temperature sensitivity of powder and many match shooters load 40S&W longer than SAAMI max at 1.140"+.

Why is there always one shot that just refuses to go along with the others?

I believe mainly because we use mixed range brass with different number of firings, condition of brass (work hardening), resized case length, etc. along with shooter input.

"Tolerance stacking" of variance from powder charge, OAL/bullet seating depth variance from shell plate tilt/deflection and different resized case lengths, variance from case wall thickness, etc. all affect neck tension and chamber pressures. So as long as we use mixed brass, we are going to see flyers.

Based on jmorris' comments, I have switched from using 5 shot groups to 10 shot groups for trending accuracy as 10 shots provide better "grouping" information. I often see more flyers with 10 shot groups but grouping/stringing vs pattern/clustering of holes provide more meaningful indication of accuracy of loads, even with flyers.

Almost never fails .... really good group going ...saying shot #5 of a 5 shot group .... if it will gooooo ... bang .... dang... an inch from a perfect group!!!

When that happens, shoot another round and if the hole groups with the rest, I would eliminate the flyer.

 

[vaalpens]

Hopefully I did not confuse everybody with the posted chrono numbers and target. The results I posted was actually for a load I tested earlier this year using 165gr bullets, not the 180gr bullets I received in the PIF. It was just posted to show the results I have seen with BE-86 with a previous load.

As your shot group/chrono data indicate, I am finding BE-86 may be more flexible at producing accurate loads with lower powder charges than WSF/AutoComp/CFE Pistol.

My CFE Pistol loads indicated it needed some additional pressure, which is one of the reasons I changed from a 1.142" COL to a 1.125" COL. With BE-86 though I was able to get decent accuracy even at lower charges.

When that happens, shoot another round and if the hole groups with the rest, I would eliminate the flyer.

This is assuming you can actually see where each shot goes. With my eyes I normally have some idea that it is a good grouping, but can only see the details once I collect my target.

I am actually thinking of my maybe trying a pistol scope mount and scope to see if it will help to better evaluate my reloads.

No news on the chrono warranty work, so it seems it will be another week or so before I need to decide on my loads, and be able to evaluate them.

 

[LiveLife]

CFE Pistol loads indicated it needed some additional pressure, which is one of the reasons I changed from a 1.142" COL to a 1.125" COL. With BE-86 though I was able to get decent accuracy even at lower charges.

Very good point.

While in theory, longest working OAL will reduce gas leakage and supposed to produce greater accuracy, with certain bullet/powder/charge combination, shorter OAL produced greater accuracy likely from more consistent chamber pressure build from deeper bullet seating depth and neck tension.

With 9mm, while I load 124 gr FMJ/RN bullets to 1.150"-1.160", I will load 115 gr bullets shorter at 1.130". BTW, Atlanta Arms 115 gr FMJ match ammo used by Army Marksmanship Unit and Marine Service Pistol team rated at 1.5" at 50 yards is loaded to 1.130" - http://atlantaarms.com/products/9mm-115gr-fmj-match-amu.html

 

[vaalpens]

I received some good news yesterday when Competition Electronics notified me that they will be sending me a replacement chrono. Looks like I now need to start finalizing my plans how to test the PIF bullets and get the most out of it.

Currently I am leaning towards doing a 5 load (25 rounds) evaluation using either the RMR or X-Treme bullet using one powder. After evaluation I will make change to the range and test the other brand of bullet. Once the second bullet has been evaluated, the same powder will be tested to refine the loads, or if I have a clear best load for each, maybe then try another powder or load the remaining 25 each and do some testing evaluating recoil and follow-up shots. Time will tell.

For now I am still leaning towards using BE-86 and my planned loads will probably be with a 1.125" COL, and loads 5.7, 5.8, 5.9, 6.0, 6.1gr, tested at 15yards.

Thanks again for all the advice I have received so far.

 

[1KPerDay]

I had a bear of a time getting berrys 180s to shoot accurately in my Glock 23. Ended up seating them to 1.16" over Herco of all things, thanks to bds' info and advice. They worked well. I mostly load Xtreme 165s now.

 

[vaalpens]

I had a bear of a time getting berrys 180s to shoot accurately in my Glock 23. Ended up seating them to 1.16" over Herco of all things, thanks to bds' info and advice. They worked well. I mostly load Xtreme 165s now.

1KPerDay, thanks for the information.

I know I indicated that the plan is to use a COL of 1.125", but thinking about it last night I thought that I should be good with 1.142" since it is a COL I have been using with good results. The 180gr bullet is also longer than the 165gr bullet, so I should have plenty neck tension. BE-86 doesn't seem to require higher pressure, so it seems changing to 1.142" probably makes sense.

With this testing cycle I don't think it makes sense to play around with the COL since I will be trying to find a powder/bullet combination first. I just need to decide on a COL and use it for all 100 rounds, unless I have cycle/feeding issues.

 

[1KPerDay]

That makes sense. I'd try your standard OAL (Like I did) first and see if they work well there.

 

[vaalpens]

That makes sense. I'd try your standard OAL (Like I did) first and see if they work well there.

I have used both 1.125" and 1.142" COLs loading 165gr with no feeding issues for either one of them. I also did a plunk and cycle test for both 180gr bullets using the 1.142" COL, with no issues at all.

Looks like I have made at least one more decision, using the 1.142" COL.

Thanks

 

[vaalpens]

I received a replacement chrono today so I decided it is time to make a decision and start loading my first batch:

The 40s&w loads are using BE-86, 5.7gr to 6.1gr, COL 1.142", Speer brass, RMR 180gr hardcore match RNFP bullets, WSP primers.

Now I just need to make the time to go out and test my chrono and test my loads.

Thanks again to bds for the generous PIF.

 

[vaalpens]

I was able to test my first reloads with some mixed results. The loads shot well but it seems I had an off day shooting. I'm not sure exactly what was going on, but my targets were way more out of focus than they normally are, plus I forgot to put my chair in, so I was shooting from my knees, instead of sitting.

It seems that I did see some trends though, which probably will lead me to load the exact same loads with the X-Treme bullets, or maybe start .1gr lower with the max also .1 lower.

The good news is that my replacement chrono performed flawlesly with these loads, and also some loads I shot with my 38/357 and 357sig.

Following are the loads results I have seen so far:

P229, 40S&W, 3.9"
COL: 1.142"
RMR, 180gn, TPRNFP, BE86, 5.7gn, WSP
Average: 890
ES: 40
SD: 15.8
Force: 317
PF: 160
Velocities: 891, 890, 865, 902, 905




P229, 40S&W, 3.9"
COL: 1.142"
RMR, 180gn, TPRNFP, BE86, 5.8gn, WSP
Average: 898
ES: 30
SD: 14
Force: 322
PF: 161
Velocities: 889, 911, 890, 886, 916

P229, 40S&W, 3.9"
COL: 1.142"
RMR, 180gn, TPRNFP, BE86, 5.9gn, WSP
Average: 924
ES: 30
SD: 14
Force: 341
PF: 166
Velocities: 924, 911, 910, 937, 940


P229, 40S&W, 3.9"
COL: 1.142"
RMR, 180gn, TPRNFP, BE86, 6gn, WSP
Average: 929
ES: 18
SD: 7.2
Force: 345
PF: 167
Velocities: 924, 922, 932, 927, 940

P229, 40S&W, 3.9"
COL: 1.142"
RMR, 180gn, TPRNFP, BE86, 6.1gn, WSP
Average: 945
ES: 26
SD: 12.1
Force: 357
PF: 170
Velocities: 957, 957, 931, 935, 947

Hopefully next time I will have a better shooting day which will allow me better evaluate the PIF bullets from bds.

 

[LiveLife]

Your chrono data is definitely showing an accuracy trend.

When I did my BE-86 load testing, I was shooting at an indoor range and could not set up a chrono so I went by accuracy trends of my shot groups.

I am building a machine rest for carbines/pistols for the plated bullet mythbusting thread and look forward to verifying previously tested loads - http://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...ng-at-25-50-yards.808446/page-4#post-10378873

 

[vaalpens]

Thanks bds.

The problem is that it looks like 2 trends. On the lower end the accuracy looks maybe better (not sure I can trust my shooting on the day), and on the higher end the ES looks better.

The plan now is to load the Xtreme bullets next, and trying to address both trends at the same time. I am going to lower my COL to increase the pressure, and also lower my starting charge to compensate for the lower COL.

Thanks again for all the advice.

 

[vaalpens]

I made some time today to test the second round of loads using the Xtreme bullet and the shorter COL. This is not the first time, but it seems that every time I shorten the COL to 1.125", then the results show better chrono numbers and better groupings. Following are the chrono results and shooting results:

Shooting from 15yards using a rest.

P229, 3.9", 40S&W
COL: 1.125"
Xtreme, 180gn, RNFPHPCB, BE86, 5.5gn, WSP
Average: 878
ES: 21
SD: 8.1
Force: 308
PF: 158
Velocities: 869, 882, 890, 874, 876


P229, 3.9", 40S&W
COL: 1.125"
Xtreme, 180gn, RNFPHPCB, BE86, 5.6gn, WSP
Average: 887
ES: 29
SD: 11.5
Force: 314
PF: 159
Velocities: 889, 900, 871, 896, 882


P229, 3.9", 40S&W
COL: 1.125"
Xtreme, 180gn, RNFPHPCB, BE86, 5.7gn, WSP
Average: 891
ES: 15
SD: 5.9
Force: 317
PF: 160
Velocities: 888, 890, 899, 884, 895


P229, 3.9", 40S&W
COL: 1.125"
Xtreme, 180gn, RNFPHPCB, BE86, 5.8gn, WSP
Average: 917
ES: 9
SD: 3.6
Force: 336
PF: 165
Velocities: 920, 919, 918, 911, 918


P229, 3.9", 40S&W
COL: 1.125"
Xtreme, 180gn, RNFPHPCB, BE86, 5.9gn, WSP
Average: 929
ES: 26
SD: 9.5
Force: 345
PF: 167
Velocities: 925, 930, 943, 931, 917


I was very happy with the results today, even though I had a couple of fliers.

The next step is to decide what the next load should be. For now I think I have a load I like using the Xtreme bullet. Maybe the next load should just be to load the remaining Xtreme bullets with a selected load, and test it out against my 165gr load for feel and follow up shot potential.

With the remaining RMR bullets I think I need to load them using the Xtreme loads, and then test them with the chrono and for accuracy.

 

[Dudedog]

Thanks for the info, looks like your getting there.

 

[vaalpens]

Thanks for the info, looks like your getting there.

Thanks Dudedog!

Getting there means it is going to muddy the waters for me. I currently load 165gr bullets, so the decision at the end of the day will be if I should stick with the 165gr, or maybe change to 180gr.

When I realized that the grouping were good, I decided to also run a test with some remanufactured Freedom Munitions 180gr ammo I still have from before I started reloading. It was an eye opener. The grouping I saw was 3.12" with no flyer, just spread out. So the groupings I saw with the basically the same bullet were much better. I also got some chrono numbers for the Freedom Munitions ammo if anybody is interested:

P229, 3.9", 40SW
COL: N/A
Freedom, 180gr, CPRNFP
Average: 861
ES: 24
SD: 11.2
Force: 296
PF: 154
Velocities: 846, 870, 870, 868, 853

 

[vaalpens]

I finally made some time to test the RMR reloads at the shorter COL of 1.125". Again it seems that the shorter COL works better for me, so I am now even planning to redo some of my previous loads where I still used the 1.142" COL.

After loading all the bullets I realized that bds included an additional 5 bullets of each. For these bullets I decided to try a load each using 700-X just to get some baseline regarding the performance.

Following are the RMR test results at 1.125" COL. Testing @ 15yds from a rest:

40SW, P229, 3.9"
COL: 1.125"
RMR, 180gr, TPRNFP, BE86, 5.9gr, WSP
Average: 941
ES: 27
SD: 11.1
Force: 354
PF: 169
Velocities: 938, 952, 953, 940, 926
Grouping: 2.33" (.53" clover leave + 2 flyers)

40SW, P229, 3.9"
COL: 1.125"
RMR, 180gr, TPRNFP, BE86, 5.8gr, WSP
Average: 913
ES: 23
SD: 8.9
Force: 333
PF: 164
Velocities: 922, 917, 912, 899, 918
Grouping: 1.91" (1.26" + 1 flyer)

40SW, P229, 3.9"
COL: 1.125"
RMR, 180gr, TPRNFP, BE86, 5.7gr, WSP
Average: 910
ES: 18
SD: 6.9
Force: 331
PF: 163
Velocities: 915, 920, 908, 909, 902
Grouping: 2.02"

40SW, P229, 3.9"
COL: 1.125"
RMR, 180gr, TPRNFP, BE86, 5.6gr, WSP
Average: 892
ES: 36
SD: 14.6
Force: 318
PF: 160
Velocities: 917, 894, 882, 881, 890
Grouping: 1.92" (1.27" + 1 flyer)

40SW, P229, 3.9"
COL: 1.125"
RMR, 180gr, TPRNFP, BE86, 5.5gr, WSP
Average: 885
ES: 16
SD: 6.6
Force: 313
PF: 159
Velocities: 881, 896, 888, 883, 880
Grouping: 1.23"

Following are the 700-X test results. Testing @ 15yds from a rest:

40SW, P229, 3.9"
COL: 1.125"
Xtreme, 180gr, RNFPHPCB, 700X, 4.2gr, WSP
Average: 809
ES: 8
SD: 3.6
Force: 262
PF: 145
Velocities: 806, 806, 808, 812, 814
Grouping: 3.21"

40SW, P229, 3.9"
COL: 1.125"
RMR, 180gr, TPRNFP, 700X, 4.2gr, WSP
Average: 799
ES: 33
SD: 12.3
Force: 255
PF: 143
Velocities: 783, 800, 793, 804, 816
Grouping: 1.99"

I conclusion it seems BE-86 is performing as I expected. I see good accuracy at the lower charges, but then at the higher charges it seems that it is getting closer to another accurate charge.

Thanks again to bds for allowing me to test these bullets.