The Black Talon blues.

[12-34hom]

Went to a large gun show today looking for some 10mm ammo for my new 10mm pistola.

While looking, found two boxs of 10mm Winchester "Black Talon" ammo for 25.00 $ for a box of 20 rounds.

I motioned to the dealer and asked what commanded such a price for this ammo? What was so special??

No answer, just a stuiped grin. I can't believe the hype that revolves around this cartridge.

After looking, found some Winchester, 1 box of Corbon 135 grainers, 4 boxs of "Impact" 10mm; what ever the heck those come from, some PMC, and Remington fodder.

End result, found a dealer who loads his own, bought one box of 155 JHP [50 per box] for 17.00$

I can see that it's time to start reloadind for this pistol.

I've seen some excellent loads posted on TFL & Glocktalk using 800 X powder and premium JHP bullets.

12-34hom.

 

[Preacherman]

If you're looking for 10mm. Black Talon, I know a local pawnshop that has 15-20 boxes of the stuff that have been sitting on the shelf for years. If you make them an offer, I daresay they could be persuaded to dump the lot on you... I could even pick them up for you and ship them. If you're interested, let me know.

 

[Carlos]

Now, if that's not one hell of a deal, I don't know any better.

Take it.

 

[Jim March]

The thing I'd worry about with the 10mm is that a lot of the JHPs are built to expand at 40S&W velocities and fall apart if driven faster. Cor-Bon's newest load for the 40/10mm and their 45ACP-necked-to-40-for-the-same-speed-as-a-10mm critter. Expansion was good out of the 40, rounds lost a lot of mass and diameter on the hotter stuff.

The Gold Dot projectile might be an answer...the lead is bonded to the jacket so it resists coming unglued. Pro-load's version of the 10mm based on the Gold Dot has recorded some absolutely unbelievable expansion numbers in gelatin...1.25" . Looked like a radiator fan.

 

[Chipperman]

$25 for a box of 20 10mm?
To be honest, I would have thought the guy would be asking even more.
There can't be too much of that stuff around in 10mm.
How long is the magic good for in those anyway?
Don't they have an expiration date?

 

[JeremyIA]

If stored properly any ammo should last for a very long time. I bought a box of .45 ACP Black Talon DP for $35 and five rounds were missing but I knew about that. It's hard to come by. I bought it for the novelty. Sorta like my Glock Marine Spring Cups and my 12-gauge flash suppressor. Stuff that you don't see every day but makes for a good box of conversation goodies.

 

[Tamara]

The funny thing is, 10mm Black Talons are subsonic.

Subsonic 10mm makes about as much sense to me as subsonic .357 Magnum...

 

[Mike Irwin]

Hey, consider yourself lucky that he didn't try to feed you some huge line about them being the top super secret rounds for the SEELS and how they're tipped with Flizupmtium, which increases stopping power 1 billion percent...

I've heard some REAL BS about Black Talons over the past couple years...

 

[Chuck Dye]

I bought 40 rounds each of the Black Talon in 9mm ($9.49/20) and .45ACP (($10.81/20) for testing when they first came out. Testing was delayed 'til after the hysteria hit and Winchester knuckled under, so I set the ammo aside. Still regret turning down the $75/box I was offered shortly thereafter.

 

[general]

It is my understanding that the Winchester SXT is virtually the the same ammo? Is this correct?
All the good, none-o-the bad ("BLACK TALON!" PC BS)
When do the ban the "Flesh Ripper" bullets? (joke)

 

[Don Gwinn]

We were such idiots when we closed dad's shop that we auctioned off a bunch of individual boxes of Black Talon for less than retail. Guess we should have held onto it and sold it for a ridiculous price.

 

[BHP9]

I think that conducting your own expansion tests with whatever ammo you chose would yield some suprising results. Although the Black Talon was supposed to be a good bullet it has been reported that many competing brands do just as well without the sensational name that went along with the Winchester product.

I often think the advertising campaign for the Black Talon was the most successful in history but that did not make it the super bullet it was reported to have been.

AS a side bar in my conversations with hunters I have often found that even though they have tried numerous jacketed expanding bullets many have gone back to the old Elmer Keith style lead semi-wad cutters in revolvers. They penetrated way better than expanding bullets and seemed to kill just as dead if not better and these results were on animals that were often as big or bigger than humans.

A lot can be said even for cast bullets in semi-auto handguns. They always penetrate and even often deform depending on how hard you make them. Jacketed bullets sometimes work too well expanding so quickly as to not insure adequate penetration especially in the more powerful calibers like the 10mm. Once again conducting your own tests out of your own handgun is the only way to know for sure if the super bullet you think you have really is super.

 

[COHIBA]

hornady makes a BRUTAL 10 mikemike load w/ a 200 gr XTP.
the BT is all hype. we did some phone book shoots w/ 230 gr original DP black talons against 200 gr XTP's in 45acp and found the XTP penetrated 4 times as far and expanded. the BT's clogged up and remained unopened.
the winner by the way happened to be the 200 gr corbon. 5 dry phone books and full fragmentation after the 4th book.

 

[Tamara]

5 dry phone books

Uh, your interesting choice of tissue simulant may have colored the results a bit.

 

[forquidder]

Talons n' bears

I just heard an interesting story about Black Talons. An aquaintance just purchased 2 boxes of 45 acp black talons over the internet for a friend at $65 per box. It seems the friend is going to use the loads as grizzly bear defense when in the woods . Should be just about enough to get the bears' attention and piss him off at the same time. Keep your eyes on the Darwin Awards as this saga continues.

 

[JeremyIA]

Tamara--There are some that even question the validity of ballistic gelatin. Some people try to go overboard by proving grand ballistic performance/penetration/expansion (etc) by shooting pieces of meat and dead animals and even jugs of water. None of it really proves anything. Without actual studies based on defensive shooting situations in which the media used is the actual media for which that particular cartrige was intended, ANY claim that "this is better than that" is like claiming that tissue paper makes better parachute material than saran wrap.

Ballistic gelatin is no more valid than dry phone books.

 

[Tamara]

JeremyIA,

Yes, but using any non-wet substance for testing expansion creates a problem in that JHP's rely on fluid dynamics to expand.

I actually had an acquaintance once tell me that he'd lost all faith in Golden Sabers. When I inquired as to why, he said that they'd tested some out and they didn't expand. I asked what they shot them into, and was told a stack of pine boards. Hmmm...

Granted, mediums used for expansion testing (water, ballistic gelatin, wet phonebooks/newsprint, modeling clay, mud, what-have-you) are not perfect tissue simulants, but wondering why a JHP won't expand when shot into pine boards is like wondering why a car won't run if you fill the tank with water.

 

[Guntalk]

New 10mm 1911

There will be a new 10mm 1911 released this year.

For those who are interested. <grin>

 

[Mike Irwin]

"There are some that even question the validity of ballistic gelatin."

True, there are. And most of those people are looking at the wrong things.

Ballistic gelatin has one great advantage. It is a REPEATABLE testing medium. "Street results" aren't, nor are there usually enough of them to provide a truly comprehensive look at the performance of any particular bullet other than hardball.

Anyone who says that ballistic gelatin "proves" anything misunderstands the purpose of the testing. The purpose of testing using a uniform, controlled repeatable medium is to find out what SHOULD provide good results under a variety of conditions, not what will provide good results.

Ballistic gelatin has more than proven its worth when looked at in that light.

The statement that ballistic gelatin is no more valid than phone books is also incorrect.

Ballistic gelatin has been shown, when comparing results to actual shots into tissue, to be the most effective material by far for replicating what happens when a bullet strikes tissue.

Much of the validity of using ballistic gelatin in the first place is to provide a repeatable testing medium that can be prepared by anyone who has the time and effort. As long as the preparation steps are the same, the results will be valid from one laboratory to another. In that sense, it's the same as conducting any other experiement.

The problem with using other media has always been in the preparation, media type, details, etc.

 

[blades67]

ANY claim that "this is better than that" is like claiming that tissue paper makes better parachute material than saran wrap.

That's not true, everybody knows Saran Wrap won't open after it gets stuck to itself.

 

[12-34hom]

Jeeze, after reading some of the prices paid for a "subsonic" load

25.00 $ don't sound allthat bad..

12-34hom.

 

[Owen]

BWAHAHAHA! Subsonic 10mm is like a four cylinder mustang!

 

[Black_Talon]

It is my understanding that the Winchester SXT is virtually the the same ammo? Is this correct?
All the good, none-o-the bad ("BLACK TALON!" PC BS)

Yes, that is correct. And now the SXT has undergone a redesign that is an even better performer. It's being sold as "LEO" and is called "Ranger T".


BTW: 12- 34hom - The average going price for a box of 20 original Black Talons on Gunbroker is around $40-50.

 

[COHIBA]

the attempt was not to simulate tissue. the medium used was available in bulk. as far as comparisons goe the medium should not matter. i was not comparing my results to anyones else not to published gelitan penetration numbers. i merely stated that in THAT medium the BT's were last my a great margin.
and as comparisons go i would suggest they, black talons, would fall into last place against the corbon or hornady,; in ANY medium; cadaver to caviar.
COHIBA (not ammolab)

 

[BHP9]

I think one of the best indicators is to look for is patterns of expansion and penetration. If one tests several bullets in a variety of mediums and one sees that Brand X expands and penetrates in water, in gelatin, in wet newpapers and in stacks of hot dogs put end to end and brand Y only expands in some of them then we have a very good indication on what brand of bullet to go with when using it for defensive purposes out of your particular gun.

Facts are very few people are willing to go to this much trouble and testing. They instead rely on glitzy pictures in magazines showing perfectly expanded bullets not realizing ,especially in rifle calibers that velocity and distance also come into play as to how much a bullet will expand. Often bullets designed for magnums are used in rifles that are not magnums or are used at ranges that are too close or too far to get the perfect mushrooms that are shown in the gun magazines.

Handguns are not much different. Shooting an expanding bullet out of a hunting handgun with an 8 inch barrel or even a 10 inch barrel and then proclaiming it is the ultimate bullet for everyones handgun including 3 inch barreled hideout handguns is not very realistic.