Black Talon vs Winchester SXT?

[CavalierLeif]

Hi all,

Not too long ago, I was gifted an assortment of SD ammo in 9mm and .38 special from a neighbor. Some of this stuff looks to be from the early 90s, and the box art is very entertaining.

Two boxes in particular caught my eye - one of the legendary Black Talon, and one of Winchester SXT. Both are 147 grain and look to be structurally identical.

Does anyone know of any differences between the two other than the coating on the Black Talon?

 

[pblanc]

Well, the pundits quipped that "SXT" stood for "Same eXact Thing" as the Black Talons, which had gotten a bad rap as "cop killers".

 

[Odd Job]

The best info I have ever got on this subject has come from the experts on the IAA forum. See this thread:

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/winchester-ranger-sxt-line/129

 

[herrwalther]

Black Talon got a bad wrap back in the day. Modern HP rounds are more lethal than the Black Talons were due to improvements in powder combinations. Liberals literally cried over a scary name and black paint.

 

[Odd Job]

By the way Leif, those nickel-plated (cases) Black Talons especially in that box can be sold for good money to collectors.

 

[Odd Job]

Both are 147 grain and look to be structurally identical.

One last comment, because it is all in the thread I referenced, but I'll put it here for others. The projectiles are not the same structurally. The Supreme SXT on the left has an 8-lobed design and will open up into blunt petals. The Black Talon has a 6-lobed design and will open up into sharp petals, as will the later Ranger-T.

 

[BillTell]

I don't know what the difference is, but I can tell you I still have about 5 boxes of Black Talon in .357 Mag, that I use strictly for hunting. They used 180gr. bullets. (Try to find THAT at any big box store, or most other places. Most .357's are 158gr.) I shot a buck from my 9.5" Encore bull barrel from about 30 yds, and that Talon went through the shoulder, through a rib, through the heart, through the shoulder on the opposite side! Complete pass through! I wouldn't use any other .357 round for hunting. I've taken several deer with them and they are Devastating.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

If you want new Black Talon ammo, look for Winchester Ranger Law Enforcement ammunition .

 

[basicblur]

I remember reading ( I think in one of Ayoob's books?) that the Black Talons penetrated too far before expanding - the later lines (like the SXT) were designed to open up earlier, so they're an improvement on the infamous Black Talons.

 

[kanook]

First hog I shot was with Black Talon 180 357mag.

I wish Winchester would bring it back in the "Platinum" series. http://www.winchester.com/products/.../platinum-tip-hollow-point/Pages/default.aspx

 

[RecoilRob]

Years ago when Black Talons were still on the market, a fellow went iggy on a Lawyer firm and killed like 8 of them...using BT's. Sad as this was, I found it interesting reading the Coroners Report where he painstakingly documented every bullet path and concluded that all the deceased would have been equally dead if the shooter had used FMJ's and only ONE of the infamous and deadly Black Talons had nicked an artery that an FMJ likely would have passed leaving it unscathed. His aim was true and effective...what he was shooting wasn't nearly as important as where he was putting them, and this remains a good lesson we should all never forget.

 

[dickydalton]

I have some44 Magnum Ranger SXTs, Law EnforcementAmmunition on the box. They have only 6 points on the end of the bullet. When shot into a bank of silty clay, at a gravel pit, they came apart in three pieces and didn't penetrate as far as Remington Core Loct Hollow Points that mushroomed nicely.

 

[FL-NC]

By the way Leif, those nickel-plated (cases) Black Talons especially in that box can be sold for good money to collectors.

Interesting. I have a ziplock with 100+ of them. Now to find someone who wants them.....

 

[herrwalther]

If you want new Black Talon ammo, look for Winchester Ranger Law Enforcement ammunition .

I don't think I have ever seen Ranger T ammo "in the wild." I have found them for sale online and have watched tests, just have never seen them on the shelf. I would like to carry that stuff and see how it shoots in my handguns. But for the most part I stick to stuff I can find like HST, Golden Saber, and bulk JHP rounds.

Years ago when Black Talons were still on the market, a fellow went iggy on a Lawyer firm and killed like 8 of them...using BT's. Sad as this was, I found it interesting reading the Coroners Report where he painstakingly documented every bullet path and concluded that all the deceased would have been equally dead if the shooter had used FMJ's and only ONE of the infamous and deadly Black Talons had nicked an artery that an FMJ likely would have passed leaving it unscathed. His aim was true and effective...what he was shooting wasn't nearly as important as where he was putting them, and this remains a good lesson we should all never forget.

Shot placement is and has always be king. Every company has their gimmick ammo trying something different. The hard and fast truth is, a super tactical round shot in someones foot probably won't be lethal. A round going through the heart, either FMJ or HP, is likely going to do the job. Expanding hollow points just give you a few fractions of an inch more in expansion for more wiggle room to hit something important.

 

[jeepnik]

Well, the pundits quipped that "SXT" stood for "Same eXact Thing" as the Black Talons, which had gotten a bad rap as "cop killers".

When Black Talons were pulled from the market, exactly zero cops had ever been shot with one. And none of those zero cops died. There were even articles about doctors being seriously injured when removing them from folks. Funny thing is no one could find one of them or figure out how you get injured removing a bullet with forceps and such.

And so it goes. The comment on what XST means is pretty close to the truth.

 

[Steve C]

Black Talons are SXT bullets as you can see on the label of this early box of civilian marketed ammo I bought years ago. SXT ammo all have the same type of bullet with a jacket that is thicker at the nose of the bullet that opens up with the forward "claws" that gave the Black Talon its identifiable wicked looking talons. Winchester dropped the name Black Talon as it carried negative connotations caused by bad press. The SXT bullet has had some changes in its design over the years as the black coating was deleted and the ends of the pedals where rounded to make them less sharp and aggressive looking all of which doesn't effect the bullets performance.

 

[Zerodefect]

Due to the goofy B Talon hysteria, I'd recommend not shooting it. It'll be worth it as a collectable eventually. Modern JHP's are far superior.

Kinda like SS190 for the FN P90. Plenty of ammo does the same thing, but SS190 is special because it's been banned for sale or something. A case of SS190 is $$$$ last time i checked. I think I have 50 left.