The Black Talon blues.

[JeremyIA]

Okay, maybe I wasn't clear enough. Most folks testing their ammo out on phone books/newspaper are doing so to test penetration--not expansion. Yes, I understand how JHP's rely on fluid dynamics to expand and ballistic gelatin is a great media to determine how a bullet will expand--in ballistic gelatin. I assumed that COHIBA was testing penetration. I also understand that different bullets will expand in a different manner but two bullets of the same type (i.e. two Speer Gold Dots of the same caliber but of different weights) should expand uniformly enough for all practical purposes. When testing sheer penetrating ability, phone books and newspaper are fine. Ballistic gelatin holds no greater value in that case. If one bullet goes through four phone books and another bullet goes through five phone books it really doesn't matter if the two bullets are of like type. The one that went through five phone books is going to have the energy to push it further through an obstacle.

Regarding potential bullet performance, I still take issue with those that feel ballistic gelatin is a good media with which to test such properties. It's geletin--not flesh. It has no bones, and it has no variations like your body does of various muscle/flesh mass.

I know several court-room subject matter experts that are called upon to testify in several major cities regarding cases involving defensive shooting incidents. The certifiable experts with whom I converse take issue with ballistic gelatin and its over-glorified properties for bullet performance testing. Ballistic gelatin is nothing more than a pretty format that allows for easy photography of the entire path of the bullet and the bullet's terminal condition. It's window dressing. I love the gun magazines and I've even purchased a Kimber based on what I read in one of them. However, ballistic gelatin just makes for a good platform to take pictures for gun magazines so that ammo manufacturers can WOW the consumer. I'll reconsider my opinion after they figure out how to get ballistic gelatin to grow a rib cage.

In a defensive situation, a bullet often has to pass through more than just one obstacle before getting to the boiler room of the assailant. If your assailant has a gun and is pointing it at you or has a knife and is pointing it at you, where are his hands? They're in front of him covering his center-of-mass which is where you are most likely to shoot. Ballistic gelatin can't reproduce the path of a bullet through someone's hand AND THEN their ribcage.

P.S. Great show today GUNTALK. I'm still getting free calendars from Gunsite after they were offered as a limited GUNTALK offer (50 calendars) last year.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"It's geletin--not flesh. It has no bones, and it has no variations like your body does of various muscle/flesh mass."

That's why it's an approximation.

Calibrated ballistic gelatin approximates the average mean density of human (or other animal) tissue -- that includes bones, fat, muscle, soft organs, etc. That's one of the main reasons why it's become the industry standard for testing.

There are other media that are a LOT easier to prepare but the results aren't considered to be as viable.

FBI testing back in the late 1980s was what gave the industry impetus to start using ballistic gelatin. FBI's tests showed that of all the testing media then in use, ballistic gelatin provided results that were the most "human tissue like."

Are results from ballistic testing directly correlatable across to actual shootings? I don't think anyone has ever claimed that to be the case.

But unless someone starts getting LOTS of volunteers to willingly line up and be shot, ballistic gelatin is presently the best and most useful media for simulating bullet performance in human tissue.

I have no doubt that there are subject matter experts who disagree with the efficacy of ballistic gelatin.

There are also more than just a few subject matter experts who DO view the information gained from ballistic gelatin testing to be scientifically valid.



"the attempt was not to simulate tissue."

That's correct, to a degree, but incorrect to another degree. FBI and other groups originally started using ballistic gelatin because of the reasons noted above. MANY other products were also available in bulk (water and paper, for example), and are MUCH easier to work with and prepare, but don't provide come as close to the average mean density of tissue.

The process for preparing and calibrating ballistic gelatin is a tremendous pain in the butt.

 

[dongun]

don't know what this was - sorry

 

[dongun]

My CCL class instructor recommended against using Black Talons in our carry weapons. His reasoning was if you had to use deadly force and the case went to jury, a prosecutor could use your choice of ammo to paint you as some kind of nut just looking for a reason to pull the trigger. This was based on the negative media hype the BTs got after that shooting incident in the office building. His recommendation was to choose another brand that would be just as effective without the negative reputation.

I have seen the exorbitant prices asked for Black Talons at the gun shows. I wonder how much they actually sell. Asking price doesn't set the value of something - selling price does.

BTW, I did shoot a BT into some wet phone books. It expanded just as advertized. You could have used a picture of the bullet in an ad.

 

[MPFreeman]

I wish you guys would not diss on Black Talon ammo. I would really prefer you to all calmly slouch off into a state of blubbering ignorance while I unload my .357 an .44RemMag Black Talon to one of you suckers for about 2$/rd. Now please, be quiet, and send the cash. QUICKLY.

MPF

 

[Chuck Dye]

While I strongly agree with Mike Irwin (note my signature line) and MPFreeman (cash is not needed, money orders and cashier's checks will do) I will continue to place more faith in avoidance, evasion and escape, backup, and shot placement (in more or less that order) than in caliber or bullet choice for defense.

My Black Talon was purchased within a few days of its hitting the market and can be had, for a price. Of course, having already turned down $75/box, I don't expect anyone here to be interested!

N.B.: Everything I own is for sale, it is just that some things are better bargains than others!

 

[fastbolt]

I must confess to having dumped a LOT of the BT ammunition to a local L/E supply store when the craze hit. I sold it to them for more than I'd bought it for ...

... and nowadays, not being an ammunition & box collector, I wouldn't pay $5/box to use it for range ammo. Especially in a subsonic BT 10mm version of what was affectionately known as "fed-lite" 10mm ...

As a matter of fact, I occasionally come across varying quantities of 9mm & .45 BT that folks no longer want, and I simply burn it up as range ammo ...

There are better rounds out there nowadays, including the latest variation of this design in the excellent RA45T & RA45TP. The non-L/E SXT version, with the 8-cut cavity, hasn't been tested as much as the L/E version, and it appears the lack of the jacketing "petals" extending over and into the cavity nose may not protect the leading edge of the lead core during expansion as well as the T Series design.

We could certainly use some better designed and engineered 10mm bullets for full power 10mm loads. This is an under-rated caliber which deserves to enjoy some growth in popularity ...

 

[George Hill]

Couple months ago I fired up a bunch of .45ACP ammo that was made in 1945. It all fired and functioned just fine.

 

[EJ]

The Talon is good stuff -- generally--
I had good luck and expansion with the 45 acp and 44mag
Never tried the 10mm
\40S&W and 9mm were mediocre at best--

Gold dots generally worked well Golden Sabre was OK --

Generally the Gold Dot were best in smaller calibers--Talons (or Ranger now) best in larger bore--
Golden Sabre was Decent in smaller bore--Not good in larger bore--

I used 75-200 pound calves and 800-900 pound cows for expansion testing-- (dead already) and the 44Mag and 45 ACP Talon were constant and expanded beautifully-- this was in the mid 90's-- fwiw

 

[JeremyIA]

dongun--Your instructor bought into the myth/urban legend. Not a SINGLE case has been lost by an armed citizen because of the type of bullet he used. Prosecutors have attemted it but it has never worked.

There is an instructor and courtroom subject matter expert that currently has a 10,000 dollar reward out for anyone that can locate a single case where bullet type was the demise of an armed citizen on trial for a defensive shooting incident.

 

[Country Boy]

It is my understanding that the Winchester SXT is virtually the the same ammo? Is this correct?

I understood SXT to stand for Same eXact Thing.

 

[Mute]

It is my understanding that the Winchester SXT is virtually the the same ammo? Is this correct?

Actually it is not the exact same ammo. Only the ones with the Ranger designation are the same as the Black Talon (i.e. Ranger SXT or Ranger-T). The standard SXT ammo is different and does not perform as well in ballistic gelatin testing.

I suggest you try the Gold Dot loadings. They seem to perform nearly as well as the Winchester ammo and aren't designated as LEO Only ammo so much more likely to find it at a "reasonable" price. If you insist on Black Talon or Ranger ammo, well try to find a friend that works in a PD that uses this stuff for duty. That's how I get mine (for less than you'll ever see in any gunstore).

 

[Smoke]

jeremyIA:

Me, a gun rag writer, and a judge are all interested in identifying one (1) case where ammo was even brought up! Can you point us to one?

Ballistic geletin may be usefull for testing, or it may not....but it is fun as hell to shoot.

I have shot phone books with my 1911 and various commercially produced loads. I have tested on up to 5 books at one time. No bullets were ever found or retrieved for evaluation. (maybe I need to move to a larger town..... )

 

[Mike Irwin]

"There is an instructor and courtroom subject matter expert that currently has a 10,000 dollar reward out for anyone that can locate a single case where bullet type was the demise of an armed citizen on trial for a defensive shooting incident."

I'd think that would be virtually impossible to show unless you got individual jury members to talk after the trail was over, but I agree, I seriously doubt if the use of a particular kind of bullet would tip the balance in a criminal case.

I could see it swaying a jury in a civil action, however, where the shootee sues the shooter for injuries.