The Fight In California Continues

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MikeHaas

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NRA MEMBERS' COUNCILS OF CALIFORNIA
mclogoclr2.gif

http://NRAMembersCouncils.com/
11/10/2003
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THE FIGHT IN CALIFORNIA CONTINUES
A Summary of the 2003 State Legislative Session
By H. Paul Payne

(H. Paul Payne is an original founder of the California NRA Members' Councils and former Director of NRA-ILA's Grassroots Division. He is currently the Members' Council Program Administrator and serves as the Liaison to the Executive Vice-President.)

In a year that has seen the anti-gunners throw a wide variety of proposals at law-abiding firearms owners in the embattled state of California, the pro-firearms forces actually gained back some ground in the battle for our Second Amendment Freedoms.

While these gains do not amount to a total victory for the Second Amendment, the political reality of incremental gains and losses seems to swing towards favoring the NRA and firearms owners in California. California’s NRA members are better organized than ever and have seen impressive and successful cooperation from gun owners throughout the state, and beyond...

Read the rest at:
http://NRAMembersCouncils.com/caspecial/fight1.shtml

----------------------
Get the latest CA Legislative Info at:
http://NRAMembersCouncils.com/legs.shtml
----------------------
* 2003: A Banner Year for California Gun-Rights
* WAYNE V. CNN - Wayne LaPierre takes CNN out in the FIRST ROUND
* The CA NRA Members' Councils' Life-Death Clock (as time goes by)
* ONLINE Calendar of California Firearms-related Events
- Submit your group's events via online interface!
======================
Provided as a service of the NRA Members' Councils of California
 
Feh.

Just give up already. Mike Haas is a NRA cheerleader, that just posts the standard NRA byline, but does not stick around long enough to answer questions. Sorry, this type of thing doesn't cut it. Especially here on TheHighRoad.org where the people are intelligent enough to read through the legalese and ask pertinent questions.

He's done the same thing at other conservative forums which is also filled with people that are not averse to asking questions.

The question here is how long are the moderators going to allow this type of spam-and-run behavior? :uhoh:
 
Until someone proves otherwise, it is more fact reporting. I guess if the facts are positive to one's side of an issue, it could sound like cheerleading.

>You never did come back to explain the positive side to your last post.

Explain the positive side? Someone isn't paying attention. That's what the article was - an explanation of how things in California are turning around. I suggest those that don't believe it (and especially those that scoff at the concept) are simply those who are not associated with the efforts that are yielding positive results.

Perhaps some pro-gun folks are spending too much time listening to dysfunctional elements that do little but sew disunity in gun-owners ranks, but one thing is for certain: many RKBA supporters seem to have developed a problem hearing or accepting good news. It's probably understandable, with the way the "anti-NRA/send me money instead" groups have intensified their spin since 9/11, desperate for donations. (Most of these "pro-gunners" would serve the Second Amendment better if they would take gainful employment and donate RKBA dollars themselves, instead of taking them from others and living off of them.)

To be sure, those who are actually working to create these positive changes know how important they are. Those, and their supporters, have much to crow about this year. The rest will probably just continue to attack the successful work of others. Go figure.

Mike Haas
You may enjoy some of my personal websites:
http://AmmoGuide.com/
[URL=http://NRAWinningTeam.com/[/URL]
[URL=http://PatriotBoxers.com/]http://PatriotBoxers.com/
http://NRAMembersCouncils.com/lifeclock/
 
Sorry Mike.

You have no history here.

Jim has been around for a long time. I have watched him fight for years. If he thinks that your deal is bad juju, I buy into it. Because I have never seen him lie.
 
Thanks for the comeback, MikeHaas!
I am an ex-NRA member. Not to chase my reasons right now, but I probably could be considered a moderate in my gun rights position. I am also a recreational shooter in California who feels NRA grossly under represents my minimal rights to shoot. I feel NRA compromised poorly at critical times. If I don't travel with pistol and ammo properly stored, I face misdemeanor or felony charges based somewhat on whether my legally owned revolver was purchased before or after the transaction registration we now have. An unalienable right can turn from a honest effort to comply to felonious conduct crossing from parking lot to range door and no one was endangered..I read all of your links thoroughly and found little to celebrate.

I sincerely appreciate your reply and hope you are a conduit to some decision making level in the organization.
 
Glad to reply, although I simply don't have much time for it, so if the forum would allow me a "reply to all in one" post...

I am an ex-NRA member. Not to chase my reasons right now, but I probably could be considered a moderate in my gun rights position. I am also a recreational shooter in California who feels NRA grossly under represents my minimal rights to shoot. I feel NRA compromised poorly at critical times.

Those are the kinds of claims which bear thrashing out individually, and perhaps we can do that sometime privately. Generally (and I apologize ahead of time - this will probably sound condescending but it's painfully true), those who are down on NRA's efforts in the state usually don't know the first thing about NRA's efforts in the state.

You get lots of anti-CA-NRA info from certain groups, of course,but when one really digs in past the surface layer of "rust" they lay down, quite a different story emerges. An honest question - When was the last time ANY told you of...
1. Candidates being elected
2. pro-gun laws being passed
3. lawsuits being won
4. anti-gun laws being repealed
...because of THEIR efforts?

I read all of your links thoroughly and found little to celebrate.

Then don't celebrate. I'm not breaking out any champagne yet either. I sent my AR-15's out of state because of SB23, and won't pop any corks until I can shoot ANOTHER sub-1/2-MOA group with my self-made, free-floated, heavy-barrel flattop IN CALIFORNIA again (of course, I'll pop the corks AFTER I'm done shooting :). I suspect I feel every bit of frustration over what's happened as you do.

But I'm also not going to denigrate the efforts of OUR side for succeeding at what our ENEMIES DID - incrementally making gains. In reality, it's the ONLY kind of progress our system of government permits. The anti-gunners in CA learned in 1982 there were NO MAGIC PILLS when Prop 15, a state-wide ban on handguns, was SMASHED. SInce they, they've won so much by being patient, by chipping away at our rights a little at a time. Are we (pro-gunners) so impatient that we reject that same winning strategy when WE are able to accomplish it?

So I'm going to let my fellow gun-owners know that this year, we have won some things (that hasn't happened for several years, BTW), we defeated almost all our enemies tried to pass, and what they DID pass was seriously watered down. I'm going to thank those who accomplished that and do whatever I can to get them to go back and DO IT AGAIN NEXT YEAR. You see, your CA NRA almost burns themselves out every year doing this... I know these people personally and am damned proud to call them friends. I don't know anyone anywhere (and I'm in the high-tech industry) who puts in more hours or logs more miles, consistently, day after day.

We gun-owners need to learn to unify. This is a problem for us because, frankly, there are many small groups vying for RKBA dollars. I have a first draft of an article about the "anti-NRA/send me money instead" industry. If I decide to go forward, it may turn into a whole series.

Sorry Mike. You have no history here.

Pardon me? So the validity of one's posts isn't determined by content, but by how long it's been since I joined thehighroad? If what I say is to be automatically discounted because I am a recent member, what is the point in posting OR JOINING at all? I suspect the average highroad member isn't as afraid of what I have to say as you are. They may or may not agree, but hopefully they will give me a chance!

Jim has been around for a long time. I have watched him fight for years. If he thinks that your deal is bad juju, I buy into it. Because I have never seen him lie.

If you are speaking about Jim March, <chuckle> this is where it gets real entertaining. Ask Jim about how long he's known Mike Haas and who introduced him to the gun-rights movement in California waaay back when he was trying (unsuccessfully) to pass ferret legislation. Ask Jim who gave him a job only because he needed one during his legal work here in Contra Costa County. I suspect that I've known Jim March for much longer than yourself, fellow highroad member. This warrants my first use of a forum smiley - the neener! (I hope it works.) :neener:

(Hey, this 'highroad' really IS a fun forum!)
 
Thanks again for replies. I have no wish to attack individual NRA efforts, only the sorry state we are in now. If NRA was to be our powerful advocate, the end results leave the organization open to questions. Current end results in my state are defacto registration, massive databases both local and central, convoluted legalities and prohibition of classes of weapons marginally different from most others. All open to abuse at many levels. We could use a bit more progress.
 
Recent experience here in Australia....

suggests that ANY progress rolling back oppressive gun laws is good news;
we haven't got to that stage yet, and may never:mad: .

I'm a NRA member, and glad to say so.:)

Keep after 'em, Mike....and report back to us, please.
 
Mike, I hope you'll continue to make progress in your fight.

To those who post snide comments: please understand that there is ONE fight, and there are many different fronts and battles in that fight. Just because you have chosen one particular battle, don't think that others who are fighting a different battle, or who are on a different front in the war, are doing any less than you.

Also, please ensure that civility and our Rules of Conduct are followed.
 
Mike Haas, the same Mike Haas that wrote this? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1008969/posts

Preacherman, you posted that there's only ONE fight. IF that's the case, why does Mr. Haas repeatedly slam KABA and other gun rights organizations with ad hominem attacks all over the internet and then runs away without answering questions.

And why did you delete only my post when I said the same things that Cal4D4 and Frohickey did, except that I added that little URL above?
 
Perhaps some pro-gun folks are spending too much time listening to dysfunctional elements that do little but sew disunity in gun-owners ranks, but one thing is for certain: many RKBA supporters seem to have developed a problem hearing or accepting good news. It's probably understandable, with the way the "anti-NRA/send me money instead" groups have intensified their spin since 9/11, desperate for donations. (Most of these "pro-gunners" would serve the Second Amendment better if they would take gainful employment and donate RKBA dollars themselves, instead of taking them from others and living off of them.)
Click to expand...

Wonderfully hypocritical rant Mike. Especially in light of the hit piece you wrote that I have linked above. I have never received one request from KABA or JPFO or GOA for money. Not one. I have however received no fewer than 6 requests from the NRA for money in the past six months. KABA has never asked me to send money to them instead of the NRA. KABA has never asked me to send them money period and your article seeks nothing more than to accomplish for the NRA, what you claim KABA is doing. There is not a person on this, or any other forum that can say that KABA, JPFO or GOA have outpaced the NRA in it's request for money. In fact, just last week I got an NRA "sweepstakes" offer to win a dozen guns. I entered. Know why? Because like the people you've chosen to slander, I am a member of the NRA and because I believe that we need as many dogs in the fight as possible, not just your dog. KABA hosted a single gun giveaway with 500 $20 dollar tickets. How many mailed requests for money does the NRA send annually to how many members? Who is the real money grubber Mike?

Most of these "pro-gunners" would serve the Second Amendment better if they would take gainful employment and donate RKBA dollars themselves, instead of taking them from others and living off of them.
Click to expand...
Congratulations! You've just challenged the entire NRA hierarchy to get off their duffs and seek gainful employment. Does not every NRA employee get paid by the money they take from others? Does not every NRA employee live off the generosity of others?

And how very noble of you to slander people when they're not here to defend themselves.
 
Let's see. In 2003 and the foreseeable future, in California, I can buy a brand new Colt Series 70....wait, no....can't buy that, I know, a new Ed Brown.....wait, no...an AR-1....wait, a DSA, DAMN...can't get that either. I know I'll wait until they make a new....wait, they need to include a magazine disconnect. Forget it I'll just get something on the approved list, now let's see. What? My BFSC is no good anymore? I have to get the new HSC. Great more money. Well who cares. It's just for my CCW....crap...L.A. County, I might as well forget it. But then, Jim March is suing to get the info from DOJ and when that...wait, that could get torpedoed by AB1044. Ah, forget it. I'll just get some new mags for my Glock 19 and AR-15......What? Only 10 round mags......




Yeah! We're so much better off right now! :rolleyes: :banghead:
 
Keller,

I had asked the guy on KABA to try to work together and he refused. I suggest you contact him and you try to get a little peace between the groups. I failed. In fact I tried three times and failed. As you can notice, Mike's post never mentioned anyone else. It was the others that started the bitching all over again.

We all have to work together. We have to co-operate.

And I'm sick of the BS that goes back thirty years.

If no one here likes a particular group that too bad. Let those people do better and get results and people will flock to a group that succeeds without mentioning another group.

Snappy Madison Avenue slogans don't cut it.
 
Shooter

You mean Angel?

How do we go about mending the fences? I'll be the first one to say that we need to get everyone to the point of recognizing the value of individualized contributions and supporting those contributions. I'll also be the first one to call a hog a hog or a gelding a gelding.

And
Explain the positive side? Someone isn't paying attention. That's what the article was - an explanation of how things in California are turning around. I suggest those that don't believe it (and especially those that scoff at the concept) are simply those who are not associated with the efforts that are yielding positive results.

Perhaps some pro-gun folks are spending too much time listening to dysfunctional elements that do little but sew disunity in gun-owners ranks, but one thing is for certain: many RKBA supporters seem to have developed a problem hearing or accepting good news. It's probably understandable, with the way the "anti-NRA/send me money instead" groups have intensified their spin since 9/11, desperate for donations. (Most of these "pro-gunners" would serve the Second Amendment better if they would take gainful employment and donate RKBA dollars themselves, instead of taking them from others and living off of them.)
Click to expand...
Given the preceding paragraph, this also includes our own Jim March in the criticism.
 
Shooter - any one else for that matter

Dead serious here. What plan of attack can we use to get everyone on the same page? I'm up to the challenge (physically at least... mentally is questionable...:D) if you are.
 
Yeah! We're so much better off right now!

Yes, we are. Now, we (meaning NRA and it's supporters) didn't solve all the gun control problems in California this year. But gun-buyers are better off, CCW applicants are better off, hunters are better off, those with unregistared AW's are better off, etc. it's the gun-banners that were frustrated this year.

Again, remember how you lost your rights - a bit at a a time. Now you are insulting the ONLY group that is recovering rights the same way? NRA is finally able to make incremental gains and turn the tables on the antis, and you complain they haven't fixed everything all at once?

One has to understand what those incremental gains mean - CA lawmakers are tired of dealing with gun control. There are only a few CA lawmakers that push it, Scott, Koretz, and a few others. They have to get support from other lawmakers to pass their outrageous proposals. Defeating 5 major anti-gun bills, passing 5 pro-gun bills, forcing Scott to water down SB 489 to where it has ZERO EFFECT UNTIL 2006 (and even then all existing guns are exempt)... all of that is evidence that the anti's influence is slipping, even here in the occupied state. Our job is to keep that trend happening.

Jim March is suing to get the info from DOJ and when that...wait, that could get torpedoed by AB1044

Well, AB1044 is passed, and yes, Mr. March is less than happy. But Jim March wanted the CADOJ to keep YOUR info, and MY info, and your FATHER's info, and your MOTHER's info... etc. And what info? Why, reasons for CCW DENIAL! That is potentially very damaging info that might reflect badly on the original applicant. Those who support Jim March's outlook want every Tom, Dick and Jim to be able to look up info about you or other gun-owners easily, over the internet... EVEN ANTI-GUNNERS WOULD HAVE ACCESS TO THIS INFO. How about your home owners's insurance being canceled because somone found out you bought a gun - ALL OVER A GOVERNMENT-MAINTAINED, PUBLICLY ACCESSIBLE LIST *YOU* SUPPORTED THE CREATION OF! Sorry, NRA is on the job with a better idea. Those REASONS FOR DENAIL are now completely under the control of the original applicant who is given a copy before the government destroys those records. People who want to do what Jim March wants to do are STILL free to use FOIA requests to get the lists of CCW applicants from local law enforcement, and contact the applicants to see if their PERSONAL INFO may be used to uncover CCW abuse.

I've heard it all now - from some gun-owners who refuse to join NRA because they are afraid of being on "a list", and now, gun-owners who are just chomping at the bit for the government to put THEIR name on a CADOJ list of gun-owners.

Remember John Lott? He went to EVERY COUNTY IN THE US to gather his data. Some activists (oh, excuse me - LOBBYISTS!) don't mind what happens to your privacy, as long as their own little agenda (their 'claim to fame', as it were) in some way becomes easier for them. Some protection of gun-owners, eh?

I have however received no fewer than 6 requests from the NRA for money in the past six months.

And THANK GOD you did!! That's because there are two aspects of NRA's fundraising that doesn't apply to most others...

1. The mailings are effective. NRA makes money off of every mailing they make. Wayne LaPierre has to raise OVER HALF-A-MILLION DOLLARS EVERY DAY to geep NRA running, and he does it!

2. NRA is effective. Who is the "NO. 1" lobbying group in DC? Who elected a good president and defeated a bad VP? WHo has stopped EVERY gun control effort federally since BEFORE Columbine? WHo is active everywhere from city councils to the UN?

I asked before for the list of accomplishments, repealed laws, etc. for any other group. Yet to hear any. My problem is with groups that suck up RKBA dollars and then live off them, all the while denigrating NRA just so they can get more dollars. It's SOP for the "anti-NRA/send me money instead" crowd.

And if you haven't received any fund-raising requests from KABA, want me to send you a few? (Just check out USENET!) They constantly whine how they are at the 'bottom of the barrel' (their words exactly), etc. Imagine - putting all of our gun-rights on the line with a USSC case while being at 'the bottom of the barrel'! Now, they lost their lawyer recently, right? (Roy Lucas died) Maybe that's why you want a well-founded group with an army of lawyers before you put everything on the line? (and we haven't even addressed the lack of merit in their case.)

Yeah! We're so much better off right now!

Yes, we are. We (meaning NRA and it's supporters) didn't solve all the gun control problems in California this year. But gun-buyers are better off, CCW applicants are better off, hunters are better off, those with unregistered AW's are better off, etc.

It took 30 years to get to the sorry RKBA state California is in now, and it's going to take time to get it back. I'll repeat this section of the original article I posted above...

We must all work together to organize, coordinate, and execute a successful defense of the Second Amendment, while- at the same time- gaining back some of those freedoms that have been taken from us in the past.

There are no magic pills, just hard work and perseverence. Those who name-call and back-bite seem unwilling to accept that, and all-too-willing to attack our own side. How's that supposed to protect our rights again?
 
:rolleyes: Tired drivel. All of it. I stand by my earlier assessment. I am however, glad to see you come back around.
 
I've had enough in fighting.

From both sides.

Any more and I lock this thread.
 
Mike Haas is the head of the West Contra Costa County NRA Member's Council, which is where I was at (geographically speaking) when I first got publicly into RKBA circa early '99 with my first lawsuit filed that spring. Prior to that, I'd been a frequent poster to the talk.politics.guns usenet group through '98 and Mike was too, so he was probably loosely familiar with me from that.

When I published details of the lawsuit I'd just filed pro-per against Sheriff Rupf of CC County and the city of Richmond on 3/15/99 to talk.politics.guns, Mike dropped me a line asking me to show up at his Member's Council meeting and otherwise hook up. I did so, and remained a member for years.

So, it's a bit of a stretch for Mike to say he converted me from a "weasel guy" to a gun guy but that's a quibble. The point is yes, I've known him for a LOT of years and everything else he says is true.

Mike also runs the private mailing list for the Member's Council system in the state, and is a vocal supporter of NRA's lobbying team in Sacramento and Paul Payne, who is Wayne LaPierre's personal "sheepdog" with the task of keeping the NRA Member's Councils 100% in line with NRA orthydoxy AND operating within the limits set for what the MC chapters can do.

Now, it's understandable why the MCs would need "riding herd on". Angel Shamaya's extensive criticisms of the NRA are maybe 15% accurate, by which I mean he's mostly wrong BUT the NRA really does screw up now and again. (AB1044 being a disgusting example, see other thread for details.) In all the other states where MC systems existed, they fell into Shamaya-style squabbling and were disbanded.

What kept the MC system alive in California was the Draconian level of "moderation" of the MC mailing list by Mike Haas. He makes DemocraticUnderground's moderators look tame :). Even that hasn't been enough of late, so Paul Payne was specifically tasked with "riding herd" on them out in the field. And it's starting to come unglued - large MC chapters have been breaking away, first one in San Diego and now the entire Santa Clara County chapter (the former Silicon Valley MC) is now the "Golden State 2nd Amendment Council" - see also http://www.gs2ac.com and especially http://www.gs2ac.com/deaffiliation.pdf

Upshot: if you want absolute NRA orthodoxy spoon-fed to you, by all means peruse the websites Mike Haas manages. It's STILL worth going to those sites for some data (cross-referenced with other sources!) and it's worth hooking into the MC system unless there's an alternative like GS2AC in your area. In many cases, the best value you get out of an NRA MC meeting is to physically hook up with other politically oriented gunnies before and after and set up some REAL action. In addition, the overall NRA system is still quite good at playing "defense" - Sacramento lobbyist Ed Worley is the acknowledged master at creatively blocking bad gun control.

But they ain't gonna put the ball in the endzone any time soon. The MCs are hobbled in terms of candidate support and in-the-field grassroots actions. Read that deaffiliation letter above - all of those actions the Silicon Valley MC pulled off in the mid-90s are now BLOCKED by the MC charter agreement. The NRA is scared of what "amateurs" might do when they have access to the NRA "brand name" in the form of "[cityname] NRA Member's Council" and have therefore shackled the MCs.

The NRA brand name is valuable, but not THAT valuable. I predict a lot more "breakaways" soon, and the whole system is on life support.
 
I am not attacking you or the NRA. As I said earlier, I believe we should ALL support the NRA, but don't blow sunshine up my butt. Don't tell me that that piece of turd (yes it probably could have been a bigger piece) left on my front lawn by the CA legistlature is a rose bush.

Explain to me how we are better off now than we were at the beginning of the year. CCW. Nope. No change there. Unregistered AW's. Nope. No change there. Buying new guns. Nope. No change there. Oh wait. By 2006 it could get worse. So explain to me how we are better off.

Yes, there were some good things that happened. But do not tell me that we are better off, when that most certainly does not appear to be the case.

I'd have a great deal more respect for the CA NRA Council if they'd have said. We made some strides but could do a great deal more and your help is needed.
 
Originally Posted by Mike Haas


Pardon me? So the validity of one's posts isn't determined by content, but by how long it's been since I joined thehighroad? If what I say is to be automatically discounted because I am a recent member, what is the point in posting OR JOINING at all? I suspect the average highroad member isn't as afraid of what I have to say as you are. They may or may not agree, but hopefully they will give me a chance!
Click to expand...

Hmmmm.

Speaking solely for myself, the validity of your posts will be solely decided on content and history. Thus far, I am unconvinced.

"If you are speaking about Jim March, <chuckle> this is where it gets real entertaining. Ask Jim about how long he's known Mike Haas and who introduced him to the gun-rights movement in California waaay back when he was trying (unsuccessfully) to pass ferret legislation. Ask Jim who gave him a job only because he needed one during his legal work here in Contra Costa County. I suspect that I've known Jim March for much longer than yourself, fellow highroad member. This warrants my first use of a forum smiley - the neener! (I hope it works.)"
Click to expand...

Oh wow, the neener. My respect grows.

I believe Jim has answered you. I await your response with anticipation.
 
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