The Four Rules

[entropy]

Here's a tragic reminder that The Four Rules are steadfast, and transgressions can be costly.......

http://www.kare11.com/news/mn-woman-fatally-shot-at-citizens-police-academy/293314306

Whether you learned them as Cooper's version, or TAB-K, the first one is still;

Treat every gun as if it were loaded.

If someone was going to point a gun at me during such a demonstration, I damn sure would demand to physically inspect said gun and rounds first.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Always treat a gun with the respect due a lethal weapon, especially the "unloaded" ones.

 

[MedWheeler]

In training, it is not uncommon for LEOs (and others) to actually point real firearms at each other, such as when they are loaded with Simunitions or similar products (or cotton bullets like we used back in the day; those things actually hurt!)

For such a practice, the rule quoted should probably read more like: "Treat any firearm as if it is loaded until you unload it yourself, or verify yourself that it is already unloaded." When I teach others, I add two points, one being that if you do not know how to do that with a given firearm, that firearm remains loaded, and the other being that, once you lose sight of a firearm you have "cleared", it requires clearing again once back in sight or hand.

This was a tragic failure of one or more safety practices most likely usually implemented in the program.

And, yes, I'd certainly like a crack at clearing any firearm to be pointed in my direction for any purpose.

 

[Schwing]

This is really sad irony since I am sure the entire point of the program was to give the public a better understanding of the police point of view when determining whether to shoot or not shoot.

 

[Warp]

In training, it is not uncommon for LEOs (and others) to actually point real firearms at each other, such as when they are loaded with Simunitions or similar products

This is where blue guns, red guns, dedicated sim guns, etc, come in handy. There is no need to use real firearms. At the very least it's not expensive at all to get yellow plastic training barrels (at least for Glocks) that literally have no chamber and are insanely obviously not a real barrel, and thus incapable of firing live rounds.

 

[wgp]

The guy I train with usually uses a blue guy for demo. If his real pistol is to be used he drops the mag and cycles the slide several times in full view of the class then has someone else visually check the chamber with the slide open before proceeding. When Simunitions are used, everyone in the class puts all real guns and ammo in another room at the range.

 

[Ed Ames]

My father once, in an introspective "don't be as dumb as I was" moment, told the story of a high school assembly he attended back when he was a student in the 1950s. The assembly was one of those law & order things where the local police department tells the kids to stay on the right side of the law.

Anyway, the police officer conducting the show decided to do a demonstration of just how hopeless a student would be if faced with a police officer with a gun. My dad volunteered/was volunteered to be the bad guy. My dad went up on the stage and the cop drew his service revolver, pointed it at him, cocked it, and - finger on the trigger - said something about how there was nothing the "bad guy" could do at that point.

...so my father reached out and shoved the web of his hand between the frame and hammer, disabling the gun.



Of course the cop, startled, pulled the trigger, pinching my father's hand with the hammer.

The cop then had a bit of an emotional freak-out because he had just tried to shoot the high school principal's son on a stage with the principal, a bunch of teachers, and hundreds of teen witnesses.

Loaded gun, of course. Anyway, just a bit of "this stuff ain't new" for you.

 

[azrocks]

This is where blue guns, red guns, dedicated sim guns, etc, come in handy. There is no need to use real firearms. At the very least it's not expensive at all to get yellow plastic training barrels (at least for Glocks) that literally have no chamber and are insanely obviously not a real barrel, and thus incapable of firing live rounds.

Ditto.

 

[edwardware]

MedWheeler:

In training, it is not uncommon for LEOs (and others) to actually point real firearms at each other. . .

For such a practice, the rule quoted should probably read more like "Treat any firearm as if it is loaded until you unload it yourself, or verify yourself that it is already unloaded."

No. It should not.

If a person, or organization, cannot be bothered to buy a blue gun, or a plastic barrel, or a damned forked stick, to use as a dummy, that person has no business doing a demo like this, or training like this.

A gun is a machine designed to kill, in this case to kill people. The cop filled his hand with the machine designed to kill, and killed someone with it. It worked.

"The weapon is always loaded." No exceptions, no equivocation. If you want to point a gun at someone you don't want to kill, buy a forked stick.

The officer should be charged with murder, his intent to kill being clearly demostrated by pointing the weapon. Accessory to murder seems appropriate for the supervisor.

 

[mikemyers]

Sorry for starting a second thread for this - I didn't realize that this thread was already about that topic.

Over and beyond all the things everyone is seeing, by using a real gun as part of the demo, those watching are unintentionally being told that a real gun CAN be aimed at someone else for training, meaning the rule isn't an absolute. If a "plastic toy gun" wasn't available, the officer should have used a book. What surprised me even more than what this one officer did, is why didn't other officers, or anyone, tell him to stop as soon as they saw how he was doing the training?

I wonder how the police officers themselves are trained in what to do, and how. Are real or toy guns used for their training?

 

[Warp]

...
I wonder how the police officers themselves are trained in what to do, and how. Are real or toy guns used for their training?

Varies by agency/department.

The good/smart ones don't use real guns in this manner. It is simply poor decision making to knowingly and intentionally point a real gun at another person and pull the trigger when you have no need+justification+intent to shoot them.

Many use 'blue' guns that are just plastic dummies or special simunition only guns that are incapable of firing real life ammo for when a projectile is wanted.

The next part I know less about and have no direct experience with but there are also blank-firing-only weapons and ways to convert some to only fire blanks.

Simply putting blanks or snap caps or dummy rounds or anything at all into an actual real gun, then pointing it at a person, let alone with intentionally pulling the trigger, is just plain stupid, there's no two ways about it.

 

[ilbob]

It appears the cop involved is being sued for sicing his K9 on a guy riding a bike that either did not have a light or it had burned out (the reports I saw are unclear on this point) when the bike rider did not comply immediately with instructions he had been given.

I have to question the judgement of someone who would sic a K9 on someone and allow the dog to chew on the guy for over 2 minutes because the guy was riding a bike without a taillight.

I know the bike rider was dissing the cop by not stopping but letting a dog chew on the guy for two minutes in retaliation for a minor dissing?

my guess is the guy that got eaten and the dead lady's family will be receiving some big bucks soon as the incidents can be used in court to show a pattern of behavior.

 

[AlexanderA]

In training, it is not uncommon for LEOs (and others) to actually point real firearms at each other, such as when they are loaded with Simunitions or similar products (or cotton bullets like we used back in the day; those things actually hurt!)

When I was doing reenacting, we made sure to elevate our muzzles so that we were never actually pointing our guns at anyone. I don't understand even a police training scenario where it is necessary to actually aim at someone. Can't the same result be accomplished by aiming the gun off to the side?

This is one of the "occupational hazards" of attending gun shows. I couldn't begin to tell you how many times I've been aimed at by careless buyers examining guns at gun shows. (This happens at local gun shops as well.)

 

[ilbob]

When I was doing reenacting, we made sure to elevate our muzzles so that we were never actually pointing our guns at anyone. I don't understand even a police training scenario where it is necessary to actually aim at someone.

I gather that part of the fun in force on force simulations is actually getting hit by various relatively low energy projectiles. It would be hard to shoot someone without aiming at them.

Personally, I would not want to be involved in such a simulation that used real guns.

 

[azrocks]

This is one of the "occupational hazards" of attending gun shows. I couldn't begin to tell you how many times I've been aimed at by careless buyers examining guns at gun shows. (This happens at local gun shops as well.)

I don't care where I'm at, who I'm with, or who the tool in question is:

If ANYONE covers me with a barrel of a gun that's not in slide lock or otherwise obviously incapable of firing a round, I call them out on it right then, right there, and in a voice loud enough to assure everyone within a 50' radius knows exactly what's going on.

If it pisses them off, good. If it shames them even better. Sometime people care more about looking stupid than they do being safe. Either way they learn their lesson.

 

[jmorris]

After Erik Hexum and Brandon Lee were both killed on sets with blanks, I would never allow a gun, even if I had loaded it with blanks myself, to be pointed at me.

There is a reason these exist.

 

[Shaq]

It appears the cop involved is being sued for sicing his K9 on a guy riding a bike that either did not have a light or it had burned out (the reports I saw are unclear on this point) when the bike rider did not comply immediately with instructions he had been given.

I have to question the judgement of someone who would sic a K9 on someone and allow the dog to chew on the guy for over 2 minutes because the guy was riding a bike without a taillight.

I know the bike rider was dissing the cop by not stopping but letting a dog chew on the guy for two minutes in retaliation for a minor dissing?

my guess is the guy that got eaten and the dead lady's family will be receiving some big bucks soon as the incidents can be used in court to show a pattern of behavior.

The "Big Bucks" never come out of the cops' pockets; that's why they're so comfortable abusing their power. The money comes out of the city, which means WE all pay for it.

 

[Kendal Black]

Here is my take on the Four Rules. I am delighted when people distribute it far and wide. Feel free to do so, and with my blessing. Maybe you know a cork bulletin board somewhere, or an electronic one, that could use a copy.

http://shootery.blogspot.com/2013/06/gun-safetys-four-rules-dont-end-up-in.html

The ghastly incident cited in the OP seems patently a problem of rules One and Two. If either rule had been observed as written, we'd be one ace librarian to the good and--well, that cop is maybe never going to work again.

 

[ilbob]

The "Big Bucks" never come out of the cops' pockets; that's why they're so comfortable abusing their power. The money comes out of the city, which means WE all pay for it.

I think it is a little unfair to refer to it as "abusing their power". They are doing exactly what their political paymasters want them to do. The politicians could change a lot of things if they really wanted to. They are the ones responsible for the way policing is done in this country.

I don't see this case as an abuse of power so much as just pure negligence.

 

[Panzerschwein]

To think that an actual live service pistol was pointed at ANYONE is IMHO idiotic.

Their are blue dummy guns and realistic airsoft trainers available for relatively little. Why anyone in that department thought it was smart to be using actual weapons for such purposes is beyond me. And if you say "well maybe the department couldn't afford trainers" than maybe that department needs to get it's priorities strait or just not host such seminars if it can't equip itself properly.

I don't care what any of you say, a REAL gun does NOT belong in a force on force training session. The only exception are those modified to fire rounds like Simunitions etc. that are CLEARLY marked and checked.

 

[mdauben]

.
Simply putting blanks or snap caps or dummy rounds or anything at all into an actual real gun, then pointing it at a person, let alone with intentionally pulling the trigger, is just plain stupid, there's no two ways about it.

Just an example of that. The son of Bruce Lee (the famous martial artist/actor) was killed with a gun loaded with blanks. The prop master confirmed the gun only had blanks in it but he didn't notice there was a loose slug in the barrel. They fired the blank and the loose slug struck and killed the young man.

Just shows, no matter how careful you are stuff happens. Better to ALWAYS play it safe.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

 

[Kendal Black]

A gun cannot be made foolproof. That is why we have the Four Rules, which were grossly violated in this case.

Why is it that a gun cannot be made foolproof?

Fools.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

I have yet to hear of any accidental tragedies when all of Cooper's rules are followed to a "T" as they are spelled out. That is the format I adhere to and feel as though others should as well.

There is no justifiable circumstance/scenario in which anyone should be pointing a "real" gun at someone else unless it is with intent to shoot.


It's a sad situation for sure but why on earth any LE agency would be using actual firearms for simulation is beyond me. Hopefully some folks in the department will be held accountable.


Not good press for 2A, especially in these times.

 

[jmorris]

Not good press for 2A, especially in these times.

You can't blame this one on the 2nd, even if they disarm all law abiding citizens, they and the bad guys will still have them.

 

[Warp]

Yeah this isn't bad press for the Right to keep and bear arms at all...we're talking about special government enforcers to whom the laws do not apply.

(that is to say, they are exempted from a whole lot of firearms laws)