The indian not the arrow.......

I've actually never heard the phrase before but now that I know it irritates you I'll use it all the time.......... Just kidding!!

Does this mean we can now start bashing 1911s and Glocks the same way we bash Hi-Points and get away with it??!! Cool!!
(That's called a barbed joke).
 
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Does this men we can now start bashing 1911s and Glocks the same way we bash Hi-Points and get away with it??!! Cool!!
:rofl:
I hardly know anything about Hi-Points, but everyone can "bash" 1911s and Glocks as much as they want - I'm still going to keep my 1911 on the bottom shelf of my nightstand, carry my Glock 19, and shoot ground squirrels with my Glock 44. ;)
 
A few years back I was going for a high archery ranking and it became apparent that my arrows were a limiting factor. So I bought a dozen each of Easton's best competition carbon shafts in several different spines and headed to the range. Hours of cutting, gluing, and shooting later I was close to perfection, but growing frustrated with the last few percent. One of the coaches walked by and I was secretly hoping for some words of advice, or at least encouragement. So when he leaned in and quietly said "Remember, it's the Indian, not the arrow" I had to refrain from punching him in the nose.
I would have had a hard time not bunching him also.
Sometimes coaches forget that you will get more out of the team by building players up, not cutting them down.
I'm not saying constructive criticism is not important. It can help to work on flaws, but insulting someone gets you know where.

That's what I hate about the "It's the Indian" phrase. Much to often it is used to cut folks down.

Most of us on the forum are gear junkies!
Most new bolt action rifles sold today will produce groups of 1 1/2" or less. The more expensive rifles will do 1" or less. The real expensive ones should do 1/2". We live in a time that we have some really good rifles for not a lot of money. The gear can truly help us all.
 
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
Absolutely! As I've mentioned before, I paid a little over $3,000 for my beloved .308 Norma Mag (my retirement gift to myself) when I turned 62 - 13 years ago. And being a custom-built rifle, built to my specifications, I kind of expected to be able to work up some loads for it that would put 3 bullets in an inch at 100 yards. Which I did. In fact, 2 of the 3 bullet holes will usually be touching.
On the other hand, the old Ruger 77, 30-06 that I bought used for $300 back in the early '80s will put 3 bullets in an inch, to an inch and a quarter at 100 yards. And that's plenty good enough for big game hunting IMO.
As I said though, my custom-built .308 Norma Mag was my retirement gift to myself. I'll only retire once, and I'd been wanting a custom-built .308 Norma Mag since I was 16 years old and my then girlfriend's dad had one. :D
My retirement rifle was my Pedersoli Sharps Rifle which I paid close to $3000 also. Once in a while it is always good to scratch an itch. The funny part is that I have a monthly budget for firearms and I can afford any custom rifle I want. The practical part of my psych keeps me grounded from being so extravagant with firearms as I am an orangutan and brutal with firearms that I devalue them with scratches and such. Also the type of shooting I do, in my mind does not warrant such customize firearms. Instead I spend the difference in ammo and shooting and training. I shoot so much that there isn't a side of a barn I can't miss.😁
 
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How cheap?
About $325 but that was before I decided to work on it some more and finally (mostly) fix the terrible 2x4 grip. Now I'm seriously considering keeping it, it was an LEO trade in so I got it cheap.
Aim Surplus seems to currently have the best prices on LEO trade ins.

https://www.aimsurplus.com/categories/trade-in-le-gear

Guns.com has some Gen 4s for not much more than the Gen 3s.

https://www.guns.com/firearms/police-trade-ins

I just looked again, Aim has them for $320 including a G21 Gen3 for $320.
 
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About $325 but that was before I decided to work on it some more and finally (mostly) fix the terrible 2x4 grip. Now I'm seriously considering keeping it, it was an LEO trade in so I got it cheap.
Aim Surplus seems to currently have the best prices on LEO trade ins.

https://www.aimsurplus.com/categories/trade-in-le-gear

Guns.com has some Gen 4s for not much more than the Gen 3s.

https://www.guns.com/firearms/police-trade-ins

I just looked again, Aim has them for $320 including a G21 Gen3 for $320.



The first Glock I bought was a G23. I still have it and it’s got many thousands of rounds through it. I actually just had it milled and put a red dot on it. I’ve been thinking of another but honestly can’t really justify another.



But heck, whenever someone says “selling it cheap…”, I can’t help but ask….😎
 

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Yeah people on trapshooters forums don't like that phrase very much, but I too agree with the sentiment behind it. Guys can shoot straight 100's with their 870's just as well as guys with $15K+ custom fitted trap guns.

I also know that their are certain performance upgrades that if skilled enough, can be taken advantage of but you can't buy skill. You see that kind of attitude on IG and other places, people flex their Gucci builds and have all the tier 1 operator stuff and then rag on the guy with an M&P. A guy with 10K rounds/drills/reps through his M&P will shred the guy with 500rds through his Cobalt or KAC.

I had a guy write some stupid comment to me something to the effect of it being stupid that I had an Aimpoint and a Geissele trigger on an M&P. I didn't even have to say anything, about a half a dozen others jumped in and pulled his card. He was trying to flex his KAC and was not an experienced shooter.
 
Years ago a skeet league my dad was in held a father/son skeet shoot. I had never shot skeet before. I was 18, and even though I could have used dad's gun, I insisted on using a beat up old Model 12 Winchester that I worked and saved up for. Guys were razzing dad for not getting me a proper shotgun. Just before the shoot started, and old man ofnear 80 came up to us and asked my dad if he would change shooting partners. My dad agreed to it with a bit of a sly grin. The old man asked to see my shotgun, cycled the action a few times, and put his obviously expensive O/U away and said we would both use mine. He gave me a few quick pointers about skeet shooting. I only hit 20 out of 50 that day, but the old gentleman ran 50 straight with that beat up old gun. He then proclaimed to everyone that it wasn't the prettiest thing he ever shot, but it was just fine. I later found out, and my dad knew, the old man was club champion and a 5 time state skeet shooting champion. He probably could have hit 50 with a slingshot.

I shot trap a couple times while living in Illinois 25 years ago. During the night time competitions, I noticed the top shooters were using pump or auto shotguns - Remington & Winchester. Not Perazzi shotguns that cost more than my car at the time.
 
I see guys w $30K trap and skeet rigs.
But they're good shooters. Really good ;)
I'm just a hunter guy, wouldn't spend over 5K on a shotgun.
Still wondering about a Blaser F16.
In case I also want to try sporting clays.
 
BTW, my 870 EXPRESS supermag w 23" turkey bbl, was top gun in one dove field yrs ago.
Mr Tweed and pointer w his overunder packed up and left in disgust.
He wasn't rude, but was obviously upset.
Birds he missed I dropped.

Had guys way back make fun of my 1100 magnum 30" (and lack of matching camo- and my non Eddie Bauer vehicle).
Top gun again. Critics didn't laugh at end of day tally session.

Used to shoot OK (for a hunter dude). Older now, I can't buy better shooting.
But there is a thing called pride of ownership, which can translate to a more enjoyable shooting experience.
The finer things of fit/finish/feel.........it aint BS.

Some don't notice such things. Some may not think them worth the cost.
Sure some go on and on about such, and still shoot like crap.
As long as theyre having fun, so be it.

HOWEVER, some people have more fun messing with other people's heads
Never have subscribed to that nonsense.

I don't mess w folks, don't blow smoke either.
Want people to be at their best when I beat em.
Thats an honest win.
 
To be upfront this is a bit of a rant.....its also posted here because i believe it generally gets applied to rifle cartridges or equipment, more than other things.

That phrase has irritated me since the first time i heard it, even though I agree with the sentiment behind it.

"The person (skills, knowledge, experience etc) is more important than the tool"

What irritates me the most is that its usually applied when someone is being critical of ANOTHER persons choice of tool, or when stating that one particular tool SHOULD be as competent and as effective in someone elses hands.

Understanding what a person is capable of is IMO the first and critical step in choosing the right tool....or if a specific job should even be attempted.
If everyone was the same, with the same experience, and same skill sets, then the phrase wouldnt exist...and we would all be able to do everything.
But were not, and choosing the correct tool for the user makes doing a good job far more likely.

Its also bloody inaccurate!
There are dozens of types of arrows and points with which one can top them.
The majority having fairly specific uses, and in many cases being completely incompatible.....

Anyway, if you got this far thanks for bearing with me lol.

I hear it constantly, mostly in relation to Trapshooting, but certainly hear it in gun and archery sports in general.
Some truisms related to it:
A good shooter will be able to shoot basic equipment better than a duffer will with top end stuff.
Top end equipment makes it easier to get better, but only up to a certain point, and at starting out, is usually a detriment.
You can't buy better scores with better equipmemnt, you have to put in work and commitment to achieve them.
Having said this, there are some natural shooters out there, (I have a son that is) that make it look frustratingly easy.

In the above case, I think it is the Indian and the arrow. She's using top end arrows there.
Yeah people on trapshooters forums don't like that phrase very much, but I too agree with the sentiment behind it. Guys can shoot straight 100's with their 870's just as well as guys with $15K+ custom fitted trap guns.

I also know that their are certain performance upgrades that if skilled enough, can be taken advantage of but you can't buy skill. You see that kind of attitude on IG and other places, people flex their Gucci builds and have all the tier 1 operator stuff and then rag on the guy with an M&P. A guy with 10K rounds/drills/reps through his M&P will shred the guy with 500rds through his Cobalt or KAC.

I had a guy write some stupid comment to me something to the effect of it being stupid that I had an Aimpoint and a Geissele trigger on an M&P. I didn't even have to say anything, about a half a dozen others jumped in and pulled his card. He was trying to flex his KAC and was not an experienced shooter.

Yes, it's the guys that took up Trap after retiring, bought a $10,000 Perazzi or Kolar, and still shoot an 18 average. All because they don't work on improving themselsves. I've made the comment that I can shoot any gun in the rack on the trapline all well as my Ljutic or my 1100, and I've backed that up several times. (It's a sneaky way to get to try other guys' guys....)

Illinoisburt said right away in this thread that it's main point is you can't buy better scores. There are those that flit from new gadget or new gun to newer all the time, hoping for one more bird, one more 10-x, whatever a perfect score is. There are three stages in a shooter's progress:
  1. Learning the basics and fundamentals of the discipline.
  2. Developing a routine, learning what works for you and what doesn't. This is where you might decide to specialize your equipment more.
  3. Focusing on the MENTAL aspect of the sport. Once you've got the physical routine down, you need to realize that in order to progress, you must learn to yoke the conscious mind to the subconscious process you have developed. It is the simultaneously easiest and hardest aspect of the sport to master. I have occasional runs of it, and when I do, shooting at top levels just happens without seeming effort.
Learning when to concentrate more on the mental discipline in shooting and less on equipment is where most shooters have difficulty. It's not as fun to learn how to use the body and mind to maximize results in any sport, as it is to go "Squirrel!" when the next shiny new toy comes into our view.....
 
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Some wicked good scores shot in the past, and present, with 870 and 1100s.
They work.
Wasnt there a Remington ad about how many rounds a trap shooter ran through his?
 
Some wicked good scores shot in the past, and present, with 870 and 1100s.
They work.
Wasnt there a Remington ad about how many rounds a trap shooter ran through his?
Yeah, I think it might have been 1 million but Entropy most likely knows the ad you speak of. For an 870, I'm told 250K is about what you can expect out of an 870 on average before reciever develops a crack, but I think they are known to go beyond that. Kind of like the guy from Europe that got a million miles out of his Volvo or Saab, it isn't common but like anything, if you take care of it, it will take care of you.

It's amazing how long things will last with proper maintenance, like the 50 year old Jonesred chainsaw that just won't quit and out performs brand new Stihls and Huskies because the guy kept up with maintenance.......
 
To be upfront this is a bit of a rant.....its also posted here because i believe it generally gets applied to rifle cartridges or equipment, more than other things.

That phrase has irritated me since the first time i heard it, even though I agree with the sentiment behind it.

"The person (skills, knowledge, experience etc) is more important than the tool"

What irritates me the most is that its usually applied when someone is being critical of ANOTHER persons choice of tool, or when stating that one particular tool SHOULD be as competent and as effective in someone elses hands.

Understanding what a person is capable of is IMO the first and critical step in choosing the right tool....or if a specific job should even be attempted.
If everyone was the same, with the same experience, and same skill sets, then the phrase wouldnt exist...and we would all be able to do everything.
But were not, and choosing the correct tool for the user makes doing a good job far more likely.

Its also bloody inaccurate!
There are dozens of types of arrows and points with which one can top them.
The majority having fairly specific uses, and in many cases being completely incompatible.....

Anyway, if you got this far thanks for bearing with me lol.

This is a good point. Years ago I used to shoot Bullseye pistol matches. I used a Ruger Mark II, which was a very mechanically accurate gun, but had some issues with it like sights that were just ok, and a terrible trigger. I struggled with that gun for awhile, until I was able to buy a dedicated competition .22 pistol, and saw an immediate improvement in my scores.

While a mediocre shooter may not be able to wring out every ounce of performance in a top-tier gun and ammunition, using equipment built for performance makes it much easier to diagnose and correct your own technique because it reduces the number of variables that can impact your marksmanship.
 
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