The lead ball and it's lethality to man.

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Beartracker

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This artical I found on the net will make the nay sayers think again about the old lead ball and it's stopping power:


A little bit about bullets:

There are various schools of thought about bullets, and what happens when a bullet hits a person. The popularly accepted theory is that when a bullet strikes a person it does three things: it pokes a hole in them, it delivers a certain amount of kinetic energy to their body, and some of that kinetic energy is expressed in what is called a "wound channel". So when you shoot someone, the bullet hits them. They will feel a concussive shove, very much like getting punched. But there will also be this other thing that happens: when the bullet goes through their body it will deliver kinetic energy into the surrounding tissue, causing the tissue to "jump away" from the path of the bullet. Some tissues deal with that kind of treatment better than others. The muscle tissue in your leg, for example, will jump away from the bullet and then snap back into shape. This will cause horrible bruising, but the tissue will basically recover. Your liver, on the other hand, will explode into pâté. The liver is fairly important. You'll live about five very painful minutes without it.
Like everything else about bullets, there is a great deal of debate about how different bullet shapes and velocities affect the variables of bullet wounds. However, I tend to go with the theory that makes the most intuitive sense to me: bullets are like objects being thrown into water. Narrow bullets that have a nice latitudinal spin will go deep into the water and not disturb it much as they go. Big fat bullets, or bullets with a longitudinal spin, will tend to "splat" into the water, creating a lot of resistance, disturbing the water, and making a big mess.
One popular illustration of this principle in action is the development of the .45 caliber round for use in the Philippines. U.S. troops were having this problem where they were being overwhelmed by Filipino human wave attacks because the Filipinos would keep coming, even after they'd received a lethal bullet wound. So the U.S. forces adopted a slower-moving, larger bullet that wouldn't penetrate as deep and delivered more of its kinetic energy into the "shove" part of the equation. The idea was to use the bullets to actually knock the Filipinos over, breaking the momentum of their attack. What came of these efforts was the .45ACP round, developed by Browning, who was working for Colt at the time.
By all reports, it worked marvelously.
Against the Filipinos.
Who were typically armed with antique muskets and spears.
And fighting for the right of self-governance, on their own land.
But I digress.
I was talking about soft slugs.
The thing about a hollow-point or soft lead bullet is that it moves through the air in a fairly orderly fashion, then splats like a water balloon when it hits something a little stiffer. Like a person. During the American Civil War, the common ammunition for muskets was a soft lead ball. And you can see the effects of soft lead balls in some of the pictures from that war; you'll sometimes see pictures of dead soldiers lying face up in fields, and they look like they're doing a very slight back bridge. That's actually because their backs have been blown completely out, and something about the way the meat dries makes them curl up around the wound. Musket balls were usually in .30 to .50 caliber range. In addition to causing lead poisoning, they tended to blow great big messy chunks off of people. A musket ball in the upper shoulder would literally blow a person's arm off.
By the 20th Century, this kind of thing started to seem a little cruel and unusual to people, so they made rules mandating smaller bullets with metal coatings that would keep them from "splattering". The basic idea is that a hit to the vitals is still likely to be lethal, and a hit to the extremities will still put a soldier out of action— but there will be many fewer people with missing pieces after the war.
Which is fine as far as it goes. But it doesn't really have the psychological impact of the big messy wounds of yore.
 
+1 Beartracker!!

The good old round pure lead ball was and is an effective stopper in it's day and today as well.

Regarding the military use of projectiles, back 140 years ago the point was to kill the target by whatever means necessary but in the modern day there is a different school of though on that matter. The modern military doesn't necessarily want to kill the enemy on the battlefield, they want to seriously wound the enemy instead. :what: The thinking behind that logic is that a dead soldier lays on the battlefield and his compatriots pass him by because there is nothing they can do for him anymore, but a wounded soldier screams and hollers and wants help so his fellow soldiers stop to carry the wounded man to medical help...soldiers who could be fighting are instead carrying wounded to the rear leaving fewer soldiers to fight the battle. So, the military FMJ ball ammo is not designed to kill, but to wound instead...it has good penetration but little expansion. It pokes a hole without doing much serious damage. The lead ball is different as per the article cited by beartracker. :)
 
Keith on round ball.

I seriously doubt if there was any-one more knowledgeable about handguns than Elmer Keith.In his book, "Sixguns" he says that the .36 Navy Colt was a far better man-stopper than the .38Spl.The soft lead roundball dumps all of it's energy into it's target, where the modern FMJ projectile goes on through.
 
After reading that I am almost of the opinion that I'd rather be struck with a modern round than a lead ball from the Dragoon.....

Wow :what:
 
Low Key, It's kind of strange to me that so many people are mislead about the effect of these balls during the Civil war and after. This article also included a photo showing a whole lot of dead solders laying on the battle field that were shot with lead balls.
I thought of you and the water jugs you shot and posted pics of a while back showing the wound channels the ball left in the plastic. Also thought of the one that someone shot in clay that really showed just how devastating the wound could be. These balls roll as they tear through flesh instead of just taking a straight line through the body.
I know first hand what a .454 ball will do to a Deer when it's shot through the lungs. The Deer doesn't go far and neither would a man.
 
Lead ball has at least three things going for it:
1. It decelerates quickly even without drastic expanison...which transmits its energy rapidly.
2. It's too "stupid" to tumble....so it tends to keep going in a more or less straight line
3. Pure lead is difficult to fragment, it can expand but generally keeps it's weight.


The .45 of the Phillipines was the .45 Colt....the .45cp was a bit later thn the main events ( although that fight went on for quite a long while...in some views, it is still going on). The less told tales were of the natives taking 30-40 rounds through center body and still getting within sword strike.
 
civil war rifles and muskets were usually .58 cal or larger and fired a 600 gr.bullet
 
Stoopid question cuz I know nada 'bout BP/lead ball arms...........what sort of rifling did the barrels use? Was/is leading a problem? How was the accuracy?

It almost sounds like leadballs are the standard we're trying to approach now with hollowpoints.
 
Yes, I'v read the stories about the .38 revolver not stopping the Moros and the Army re-issuing the .45 Colt to solve the problem.

But, as stated, MANY of the drugged up Moros took multiple 30-40 Krag rounds without immediate effect. Which is a whole lot more gun than any pistol!

From what I have read on the subject, the Army DID bring back the .45 trying to solve the problem which led them to insist on large caliber for their next sidearm. But, while the Colt WAS better at stopping the Insurgents, it wasn't foolproof and there were plenty of failures to stop, even with multiple hits.

Kind of all comes back to shot placement with adequate penetration, doesn't it? And, the lead round ball has the penetration to do the job if you put it where it belongs.
 
Accuracy varied depending on several factors. If there was no rifling, the soldier might be able to hit his mark up to 75 yards if he had a lot of practice and took the time to aim.

As for rifled barrels, the American rifleman could hit an orange at 100 yards and a man a 200 yards. 300-400 were possible for some of the better shots and the longest I know of in the New World is 600. Longest I know of (but haven't read the documents) is at 700 yards (that'll be in a footnote in my book).

One thing about lead bullets, they do like to deliver their energy into their target. Little wonder why amputations were so frequent in the days before nitrocellulose propellants.
 
the development of the .45 caliber round for use in the Philippines. ... So the U.S. forces adopted a slower-moving, larger bullet that wouldn't penetrate as deep and delivered more of its kinetic energy into the "shove" part of the equation. The idea was to use the bullets to actually knock the Filipinos over, breaking the momentum of their attack. What came of these efforts was the .45ACP round, developed by Browning, who was working for Colt at the time.
There was no round developed for use in the Philippines. The army RE-issued .45LC revolvers to the troops. They went back to a previous issue weapon, not a new one.

I think that the .45LC bullet was actually going faster than the .38 round being issued at the time, and it would surprise me greatly to find that it penetrated less than the .38 round being issued.

The .45ACP was not developed for some years after the Philippine situation was resolved. It's likely that the lessons learned in the Philippines were wrapped into the design specs of the ACP by the military, but it's not quite as closely tied to the Moros as many would like to believe.

I generally agree with your theory on handgun/bullet effectiveness, but disagree that there is any handgun bullet that will knock a person over or break their momentum purely from the impact energy or momentum of the bullet.
 
Smoothbore muskets of the Civil War were roughly equivalent to a modern single-shot shotgun. (.69 caliber was typical) Back then, smoothbore shooters either fired a single slug, or more commonly a "buck-and-ball" load. This was an undersized round ball and 4-9 buckshot pellets. The idea was to hit the main target, and maybe some of his adjacent friends. Or at least hit something if th emain ball missed. Effective range for a slug was 50-70 yards. Buck-and-ball stretched that a bit.

The "rifled muskets" of that era, such as the Enfield of 1858 or the Springfield of 1861, fired a .58 caliber ~500 grain slug at over 1500-1700 fps. This round was accurate on man sized targets out to 600-800 yards in the hands of competent marksmen. The "Minie Ball" was a hollow-based slug designed to loosly fit the bore for ease of loading from the muzzle. Upon firing, the base expanded to fit the rifling tightly. This allowed an accurate rifle to be loaded as fast as any smoothbore.

Five miserable years took us from single-shot smoothbores and rifles to cartridge repeaters and primitive machineguns (Gatling guns). To this revolution of carnage, add in rifled cannon firing cannister (airbursting fragmenting rounds), medical "science" that did not even understand hand washing and centered around swift use of knife and saw, and tactics suited to the clumsy weapons of the prior century. This was the dawn of Industrial Warfare.

The battle at Gettysburg saw some of the most horrific single-day casulaties of any battle the USA has ever fought. Picket's open-field charge of 15,000 crack Confederate Infantry into the teeth of well-prepared Union lines and cannon, resulted in over 10,000 causalties in a few hours. This was a tiny fraction of the butcher's bill rendered by the "primitive" wepons of that era.

The American Civil War was a period of butchery unequaled before or since for American soldiers. By the time it was over, 1/10th of the adult male population of the United States had been maimed or killed, by mayhem or disease. One third of the country lay in ruins. People still argue about this hideous war, and what it "really" was about.

Off the field of battle, disease was the biggest overall killer of that war, but that was an unintended consequece of the main event. The number-one killer on the battlefields of the 1860s was a soft lead slug moving below mach 2, be it fired from pistol, rifle, or cannister round.
 
It's kind of strange to me that so many people are mislead about the effect of these balls during the Civil war and after. This article also included a photo showing a whole lot of dead solders laying on the battle field that were shot with lead balls.

Mike, In this day and age, the prevailing thought is mainly "newer is better" and many will discount the older designs of anything as being inferior to the more modern designs. My thoughts are along the same lines as yours, it did the job effectively back then and will still do the job now. I don't feel the least bit under gunned with a cap and ball revolver in my holster. :D BTW, my 58 Remington will hold a better group at 20yrds than my para ordinance 45 auto!
 
By the 20th Century, this kind of thing started to seem a little cruel and unusual to people, so they made rules mandating smaller bullets with metal coatings that would keep them from "splattering". The basic idea is that a hit to the vitals is still likely to be lethal, and a hit to the extremities will still put a soldier out of action— but there will be many fewer people with missing pieces after the war.

Not too sure that this was why the modern jacketed spitzer bullet was developed. Looks like PC run amok to me. If they wanted "fewer people with missing pieces" there would have been a ban on modern artillery, advanced explosives, helicopter gunships, cruise missiles, and ground attack jet aircraft.
 
It's about range and penetration rahter than "stopping power" (whatever that may mean). Modern military bullets are rated on their ranging and ability to penetrate, that's what the specs are wrtitten for and that's what the bullet are designed to meet.

Even back in 1873, when the 45/70 was to replace the older 50/70, were somplaints that the new 45/70 (which ranged better than the old 50/70) just didn't kill horses nearly as well as the 50/70. EVERY caliber change has had it's controvesy...the 45-70 vs. 30-40 debate was just as hot and heavy as the .223 debate.

For all that, were some pretty good spitzer bullets made for stopping power. Trick seems to be to get it to yaw or tumble early in it's path...stable in air, but unstable in meat. Wouldn't be a great hunting bullet as when they get to turning end for end, it's darned hard to predice their path.
 
Sitting here looking at two Remington clones...

One's a Remington Navy in .36, the other's a Remington Army in .44. I wouldn't want to get hit by either, as I've been teaching my stepsons how to load them with real, honest-to-Gawd Goex FFFg and a Buffalo conical bullet.

Then there was the Colt Walker .44, which I understand kept the handgun power record well into the smokeless era, until the .357 Magnum trumped it. I'm vacillating on getting my own Walker replica, it's a big chunk o' steel, but so is my Desert Eagle. :D
 
Long shot!

Gary, in an article written after he had published his book on Hawkens, John Baird wrote of trying to duplicate a mountainman's story of shooting an indian at 800 yards.I remember he was using a .58 custom built copy of a Hawken, a beautiful rifle, shooting across a small canyon at a measured range. He tried some horrendous charges, until adding powder DECREASED his velocity, [blown out unburned]and I don't think he could REACH the target.Does anyone else remember that article?A round ball is the worst possible ballistic shape, and yet there was an article in Muzzle Blasts a few years back about a man duplicating a shot at 300 or 400 yards with a .32! The challenge was to hit a square target[ about 3 feet] once in 10 shots. He actually hit it several times.
 
Ooops!

HTML:
Sorry troops, Apparently I have finger trouble of some sort.How do you erase?
Don't think you can Derek, just take more water with it!!

I don't have any technical info to offer BUT when I was in the Territorial Army (National Guard) I did some urban warefare training and I remember seeing information photographs of bodies hit by NATO 7.62 ball from an SLR which showed a small entry hole in the front and a gaping exit hole in the back. One round = one stop!
When we moved to the SA80, a piece of junk, it's 5.56 round was designed to hit the target and then change direction on entry so as to wound and require CASEVAC of the soldier thus tying up manpower on the battlefield as stated by LK. It was also said that the weapon was designed for urban use where range was reduced and targets used solid cover. I prefered the SLR and it's power. It could take out a target hiding in a house by shooting through the brickwork rather than waiting for the target to show it's self.

Duncan
 
+1 to Duncan,
I was told the same thing whilst in the Army Cadets (National Guard for Kids!!)
We used SLR's and SA80's along with their single-shot counter parts.
The first CF rifle I used was a SLR with iron sights on a 600yd range, didn't hit a dam thing, they might as well have given me blanks.
The RCO delighted in telling us how you could shoot people through houses with it.:)

Good original article, makes me want more CnB pistols.
 
Tangent...

I read somewhere that Rogers and Spencer revolvers were used in the Philippines, after sitting unfired in a warehouse since the Civil War (they were delivered just as the war ended).

Is this true? I've also read that a whole warehouse full of the unfired guns was sold to a surplus/scrap dealer in 1901 -- this doesn't necessarily contradict the above story.

rsrightsideview1.jpg
 
The 5.56 does it's best work when it can flip over, snap in half, and empty the lead core into the body. This produces a lead "snowstorm" that is very characteristic on x-rays. This was probably the effect intended by Stoner.

Nowadays with short barrelled M4s we are not getting the velocity needed at range and the thicker jacketed ammo used is less likely to snap. So instead of fragmenting the round drills little holes and perhaps flips once, exiting backwards. Much less traumatic overall.

I saw a 30-30 produce a lead snowstorm once. Initially we thought the guy had been tagged with a 5.56, but the round clipped dense bone (iliac crest, IIRC) and fragmented that way.
 
Cap and ball revolvers really don't have enough "power" to make much of a temporary cavity ("energy transfer" to you guys). Neither does any handgun short of a .44 magnum.

After reading the above article and all the info from the people who used these guns in the past you don't really believe your statement above about the .44 mag do you? Nothing could be further from the truth when it comes to just what effect these C&B Revolvers can have on the body.
I'm sure you would get many arguments from people who know if any of the Civil war boy's could come back and tell you what they have seen and felt from the lead ball. Either from Musket, Rifle, Pistol or Revolver.
 
By modern standards, a .44 Remington has about as much "oomph" as a moderately hot .38 special, driving a 148 grain round ball at something like 750-850 fps depending on how you load it. The Walker Colt drove a similar ball at upwards of 1200 fps. It was just too darn big for handy carry for most folks back then.

While modern guns can certainly wring out more "thump" per unit weight or volume, the guns of the 19th century were by no means less than lethal.

What is interesting is the steady degradation of what was considered "adequate" killing power for the common Infantry rifleman. The .75+ caliber muskets of the 18th century became the .58 caliber rifled muskets of the mid 19th century, then the .45-70 caliber guns of the late 19th, then came the .30s of the early to mid 20th, and the .22s of the late 20th. By any measure except raw speed, the .223/5.56 is a popgun compared to the "adequate" killing irons of the previous 100-200 years. All the more surprising considering that the average American Infantryman is easily 6 inches taller and 40-60 pounds heavier than the men who fought the Revolution. The ordinary "man killer" rifle of the Civil War is now a big game rifle of staggering power. And yet we expected 15 year old boys to master these arms, and they did.

Oh, I understand the reasons offered for equipping a killer with a cartridge ideally suited for woodchucks and raccoons, but I think we have done the common Infantryman a disservice by telling him that he is best served by a steadily dwindling lethality of the primary arm of the poor slob called upon to clean up the mess politicians make of things.

Come to think of it, lawmen used to carry big .45s once, didn’t they?
 
My favourite reply on this post is the one where the bullet is supposed to tumble, snap in half, and spread lead shrapnel all over the wound channel.

This sounds like a Colt advertisement from the early '60s when the Army found that Colt had miscalculated the twist needed to stabilize that .223 varmint round.

"Well, it's designed to keyhole when it hits a body." Trouble is, it keyholed when it hit a paper target, too. Was not anywhere near as accurate as the 14 it replaced, and I did not think the 14 was anywhere near as accurate as the M1 I trained with, 40 + years ago.

But, the thinking then, as now, was that the soldier could carry more .308s in 20 round mags, than a soldier with a bandolier of 8 round clips for the 06, and the soldier who had a .223 could carry even more rounds without wearing out.

He couldn't HIT anything, till they got the twist right, just as the .244 Rem was a pisspoor round till they fixed the twist, and it became the superb 6 mm Rem.

But that really didn't matter, the Viet Conflict troops had lots of butter to feed their guns, spray away to your heart's content.

I have to see how many rounds per casualty there were in the Viet nam years, per million rounds.

Former wars showed that the hits were very low per rounds fired, like 100,000 per hit.

That's really a god business to get into, no? Sell the govs inaccurate ammo, in inaccurate guns, and sell them more when they shot it all up.

I'd really like to know how anyone could design a bullet that could fly accurately 500 yards, then all of a sudden, touch skin, and become a whirling dervish, and spin all over the place and do so much corkscrew like damage.

That man is a genius.

From what I have read, the .38 would have handled the Moros, BUT, they, being the simple minded folk that they were, wrapped their bodies in Liana vines, or some such, effectively making their own armor, which the .38 could not penetrate. It was not that it would not kill, but it could not penetrate the vine to the vitals.

Like being behind a wall. Have to penetrate the wall to hit the body behind it. A body is a body, is a body. All physiology is the same. Heart is here, hit the heart, dead Moro, or dead US trooper, or dead US civilian. Or dead Emperor, for that matter. A bullet does not distinguish what is fired at.

Cheers,

George
 
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